Social Radiant Hero of Legend: Ike Thread

[san.]

The whole cast's frame data is essentially "complete" at https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...mDed-NoczEq28BbnEvqD4NQ7I/edit#gid=1210583078

We don't have datamined parameters yet, but this is definitely sufficient for now. It also has differences from smash 4 listed out.

 

[Arrei]

Does anyone have any experience facing Zelda? After fighting a couple, it appeared to me like trying to space Fair and Bair at max range is a recipe for a guaranteed OoS Lightning Kick to the head. Are my suspicions correct or should I be able to block that?

 

[Fatmanonice]

Kind of kills me that a Ike's potential was talked up so much at E3 and now there's arguments that he might be the second worst Fire Emblem character aside from Corrin. It seems like Ike can never catch a break. I think he enjoyed being the best Fire Emblem character in Smash 4 for like 3 months in 2015 and then Marth/Lucina and Robin got super buffed.

 

[Arrei]

Well, I started saying a few weeks back that Ike's ground tools had been neglected way too hard. His aerial game was doubtlessly improved, despite the nerf to Fair, but I think it's pretty telling that most Ike gameplay I see involves him jumping like the floor is lava instead of a more balanced mix of moves. ZeRo's described his neutral as somewhat weak in his guide on playing him, which is in line with my opinions, and with how big neutral game often is I think that needs to change if he's going to survive in this game.

People have taken to joking about him as Nair, the character, and while that says something about the strength of the move it also speaks volumes about how everything else in his arsenal just doesn't hold up to it.

 

[Wumbo105]

Kind of kills me that a Ike's potential was talked up so much at E3 and now there's arguments that he might be the second worst Fire Emblem character aside from Corrin. It seems like Ike can never catch a break. I think he enjoyed being the best Fire Emblem character in Smash 4 for like 3 months in 2015 and then Marth/Lucina and Robin got super buffed.

I wouldn't say Ike is the second worst FE character. The only ones that are undoubtedly better than him are Marth and Lucina. You can argue that he at least on par if not a bit more consistent than Roy/Chrom, and I'd say he's definitely better than Robin and Corrin.

Regardless, Ike is in a good spot comparative to the entire cast, he falls solidly somewhere in high tier and is very viable. Your main doesn't HAVE to be a top 5er to be usable.

 

[Stealth309]

Don't give up hope yet, boys!

https://youtu.be/aW6rI81bAL0

 

[Idon]

Yeah the gameplay style of that tournament is so unlike Brawl/4 Ike that I'd never thought of using nair to that extent and was still relying on Smash 4 habits.

Good to know that he's a strong contender this time around, but I am concerned that he appears to be kinda linear in his gameplan.

 

[Arrei]

Seems like people are really jumping onto the "Ike's Nair" meme train after that tournament. To the casual eye it would appear Ike's game plan lives and dies by that one move. It slices, it dices, it cooks him breakfast and then it converts into everything. I don't think the devs would do it, but I shudder to imagine what would happen if it got nerfed and the rest of our kit got nothing to compensate for the massive void it left behind.



Also it has come to my attention that people are referring to Chrom getting suicide kills with his up special as "Chromcide", and it's overshadowed Ike's own ability to pull it off. People are even using the term to talk about Ike doing it with Aether. This is a travesty, I say, and I shall not stand for it!

 

[DrKatz]

Seeing MKLeo take Ike to Grand Finals and win such a major tournament has been a blessing and a curse. On one hand, I’m thrilled to see Ike performing so well as he’s my favorite character from the Smash series, but on another seeing the flood “Nair” memes and outcries for nerfs has me extremely worried.

I heard that when SSB4 first came out, some people thought Bowser was the best character. Someone even won a tournament with him (Mew2king maybe?). I’m curious if anyone who has more experience with Smash 4’s patch culture can tell me if Ike is likely to get nerfed if the community keeps complaining.

Personally, I’ll continue to main Ike no matter what, and this is without a doubt the best (and most fun IMO) iteration we’ve seen of the character. I can’t see him ever being below high tier if he has Nair > kill confirm at 80-100%. But if they remove it entirely, it could really neuter him.

Anyone else care to share their thoughts? I noticed in MKLeo’s match with Myran’s Olimar, that he actually was able to parry Ike’s nair and punish with up Smash. I hope the community and balance team gives the game time to grow and evolve so Ike doesn’t get nerfed early when he’s a relatively linear character as is.

 

[Banjobeast158]

Regardless of a nerf I'll play him, but It is still early in the games life, I doubt they will determine a nerf based on one tourney...but is Nintendo. I'm really glad Ike won a big tournament though, never thought I'd see the day!

 

[Arrei]

Other characters have been showing off much more crazy antics than Ike is capable of pulling off, and we've known Ike's Nair was a strong confirm since the game was being demoed. I wouldn't worry about a nerf, but I do fear those buffs I've been clamoring for won't happen because of him having this one trick in his book, which can get stuffed out by opponents challenging it with faster aerials. It feels bad being a slow power character with mediocre ground range on all but one neutral move, and Fair really just doesn't have enough KBG for being one of the laggiest aerials in the game. It's out here causing finisher cinematics when the opponent doesn't even come close to dying.

 

[Deathcarter]

Okay, fair not killing a 116 percent ROB at the edge of Castle Siege of all places is absolutely stupid.

What the hell Sakurai? Chrom can send people careening into the blast zone with his fair but ****ing Ike gets saddled with a lovetap?

 

[Banjobeast158]

Okay, fair not killing a 116 percent ROB at the edge of Castle Siege of all places is absolutely stupid.

What the hell Sakurai? Chrom can send people careening into the blast zone with his fair but ****ing Ike gets saddled with a lovetap?

It has very similar range to Nair, and acts as a good spacing tool, but still has some landing lag. I wouldn't mind it being stronger, but honestly don't think it is necessary. Back air, despite its weird hitbox, is incredibly strong, especially at the ledge. Having yet another potent kill move off of a Nair might be overkill. It is already great at ledge guards and such. (I greatly miss the Brawl Fair though...and sound effects)

 

[KamikazePotato]

Ike's Brawl sound effects were god tier. They never should have changed them.

 

[Arrei]

It has very similar range to Nair, and acts as a good spacing tool, but still has some landing lag. I wouldn't mind it being stronger, but honestly don't think it is necessary. Back air, despite its weird hitbox, is incredibly strong, especially at the ledge. Having yet another potent kill move off of a Nair might be overkill. It is already great at ledge guards and such. (I greatly miss the Brawl Fair though...and sound effects)

It doesn't need to kill during Nair combo percentages, it just needs some more oomph once Nair no longer links into Uair, because there's a sizeable, and very awkward, area where we just don't get rewarded for using Ike's greatest strength, his huge aerial coverage, when Fair just refuses to kill anything even at the edge until really high percent. During that whole range we're reduced to trying to slap that one stray hit on our opponent like many power characters are, but most of the other power characters have more options than us relying on our comparatively lackluster neutral. The issue is exacerbated by the SH damage penalty because this thing is going to be even more feeble unless we really commit to it.

I don't think Nair being good means Fair is fine - if I'm going to accept that we move and attack slower, with a million years of air endlag on every aerial because our attacks are supposed to be big and deadly, then Fair can't be stuck missing the deadly part while still packing generous amounts of slow. Since it doesn't do high damage, doesn't link into combos, doesn't kill, and edgeguarding with it poses significant risk to our own health, the move feels like its main purpose is no more than being the default followup after a combo starter, which is really weird for a laggy move on a power archetype character, especially when they went as far as to take away our SH autocancel and add even more endlag onto it.

 

[Idon]

I don

You rang?

 

[TheHero]

Okay, fair not killing a 116 percent ROB at the edge of Castle Siege of all places is absolutely stupid.

What the hell Sakurai? Chrom can send people careening into the blast zone with his fair but ****ing Ike gets saddled with a lovetap?

That's the thing that annoyed me most about Ult Ike when I picked up the game. Fair combos which is ok, but unnecessary. It not killing at the edge of stages is endlessly frustrating. It seems like you always have to play Ike backwards and go for bair. Attack cancels and other ways to turn around quickly will be a bigger part of his meta than I would like if he doesn't get fair's kill power buffed. Of course bair kills would still maintain a higher priority even with buffed fair.

At the very least fair should have reduced endlag when going off stage with it so walk of fair can work near the bottom blast zone.

 

[Wumbo105]

That's the thing that annoyed me most about Ult Ike when I picked up the game. Fair combos which is ok, but unnecessary. It not killing at the edge of stages is endlessly frustrating. It seems like you always have to play Ike backwards and go for bair. Attack cancels and other ways to turn around quickly will be a bigger part of his meta than I would like if he doesn't get fair's kill power buffed. Of course bair kills would still maintain a higher priority even with buffed fair.

At the very least fair should have reduced endlag when going off stage with it so walk of fair can work near the bottom blast zone.

With how ridiculously insane our uair kill confirms are and how much area it covers, I think it's alright for Ike to have one other semi-average aerial. People need to realize how good we have it at present time and quit whining about things that don't need to be fixed. Never happy.

 

[DrKatz]

I don’t want to call anyone out, but I do think we should be appreciative of how strong Ike seems in this iteration. I think people having trouble adapting to his playstyle and complaining about his general power are trying to play Ike like he’s from Brawl or Smash 4.

My suggestion is that if you don’t like the characters playstyle anymore, and want a stronger fair - play someone else. Personally, this is the most fun I’ve ever had with Ike since I love chaining aerials together and going for tomahawk grabs. But I come from Project M. I didn’t like Ike as much in Brawl or Smash 4 since he felt sluggish and relied on hard reads.

Experiment with the roster, but don’t complain. Ike isn’t meant to be played the same way in this game. There’s a reason his fair was nerfed, it needed it with all of his significant buffs. There’s 74 characters and if you don’t like Ike in this version, I’m sure there will likely be someone else that’ll click.

 

[Arrei]

I think I've already adapted fairly well to Ike's new "style", even if I have significant room for improvement, I'm doing fairly well as him and I do like playing him. The problem happens when he can't play like his style demands - you mention adapting to not play him like his previous incarnations, yet the rest of his kit besides his Nair pressure was lifted pretty much straight from the previous game, weaknesses and all. His heavy reliance on Nair has not been lost on spectators watching Ike play. His game plan is extremely single-minded ("linear" is the term I seem to see people tossing around) and once an opponent learns how to play around Nair and stuff it out, he has to fall back on his other tools which are comparatively much more lackluster.

I'm not just trying to rain on the parade here. I'm not here trying to say Ike is bottom barrel. I'm being continuously vocal about his shortcomings because it seems to me like everyone is so in love with what his Nair can do that they're discounting his weak neutral, his lack of approach options, his lack of offstage presence, his lack of responses to pressure, and so forth, which is dangerous. You can argue that every character has their strengths and weaknesses, but my argument is that his balance scale has more weight on the weakness side than his strengths deserve. I'm trying to put forward specific ways his moveset falls short of what it needs to do and how it's stuck with frame data that doesn't justify the reward we get out of it, and Ike's meta doesn't tend to evolve very much - I'm pretty confident that what weaknesses I can see here will continue to be weaknesses later down the road. Don't just keep telling me it's fine because he can Nair, because a lot of other characters have their own bread and butter tools on top of having good options outside of those.

 

[san.]

I think you're discounting the versatility of bair (despite the nerfs), and uair, which are both safe and cover good distance. While you can't use them in neutral often, utilt and ftilt fulfill their roles faithfully. Dtilt, while shorter, is essential for mixups due to its low profiling nature as an alternative to his aerials, to help punish opponents who jump preemptively or try to land. While jab is no longer good, it at least fulfills the basic role of a generic jab for an up close option to continue or relieve pressure (boring I know).

I think the big stinker here is fair since it has above average landing lag, AND below average power, for its frame data and reach. I think all that Ike needs to get fixed is some combination of range, damage, and landing lag buffs on his fair. It doesn't have to be as strong as his smash 4 counterpart, but 12 damage, 12 landing lag, and a tiny bit more range will help even out Ike's kit. I don't think that's really asking for all that much. Everything else is a pipe dream, so I don't expect changes like a larger bair hitbox below no matter how badly I want it, or at least lower FAF.

Also, nair is being overrated, yeah. As good as nair is, it doesn't fulfilll the basic role most other nairs attempt to accomplish by breaking strings. That's why it's so strong a tool. It does low damage so it needs to combo well.

Overall, I disagree with the weak neutral (disjointed aerials that demand respect that are difficult to punish, multiple tools that can be used to mix up, etc), lack of approach options (discounting bair, as well as the versatility of uair and dtilt, with multiple situational options to stuff aerial and grounded approaches in utilt and ftilt). Neutral might be weak for a high tier, but I think it's easily above average overall.

Ike does lack responses to pressure by design. The best he has is, if you predict an opponent will continue to push buttons, you may use grounded aether to utilize its 5 frame super armor. As well as bair if you're lucky though that's rare. Overall lacking a bit compared to the free frame 3 nairs that many other characters have. Other than that, he has to use global options to finesse around opponent's options before he can hard punish them. Fortunately, the global options in this game are much stronger where Ike can utilize them with his decent air speed.

 

[DrKatz]

Well said San. Very well said! I’d like to see more Ike’s using his other tools in neutral. Namely all of his tilts. I think they all serve a specific purpose in neutral which shouldn’t be discounted. They may not be as strong as his aerial game, but they exist to fulfill a role his aerials can’t and they help the character overall. Especially with how powerful and quick ftilt is in this version, it feels very good.

 

[Arrei]

That point about Fair evening him out is a big reason I went on that tirade about it, really, and I was a mite baffled at getting responses about it being fine just because we have Nair combos. I feel fixing that one move could help a lot of things. The neutral revolving too much around Nair, to the point we're a bit defanged once it stops being the go-to? Fair could help with that, by giving us more reward off of spacing at that high percent range than sending opponents up to fruitlessly fish for a stray Uair hit. Nair lacks shield pressure and Bair is too tall to make full use of its speed out of short hop now? Fair could help with that, by threatening shields more to make opponents more susceptible to landing the Nair. Edgeguarding is disproportionately hazardous for Ike? Fair could help with that, if it could kill at a more respectable range instead of merely setting up an edgeguard situation we are unlikely to capitalize off of.

 

[Rehnquist]

....

I heard that when SSB4 first came out, some people thought Bowser was the best character. Someone even won a tournament with him (Mew2king maybe?). I’m curious if anyone who has more experience with Smash 4’s patch culture can tell me if Ike is likely to get nerfed if the community keeps complaining.

Personally, I’ll continue to main Ike no matter what, and this is without a doubt the best (and most fun IMO) iteration we’ve seen of the character. I can’t see him ever being below high tier if he has Nair > kill confirm at 80-100%. But if they remove it entirely, it could really neuter him.

Anyone else care to share their thoughts? I noticed in MKLeo’s match with Myran’s Olimar, that he actually was able to parry Ike’s nair and punish with up Smash. I hope the community and balance team gives the game time to grow and evolve so Ike doesn’t get nerfed early when he’s a relatively linear character as is.

Yoshi, Bowser, and Little Mac were the initial talks of early Smash 4. Smash 4 initial patches were rough to say the least, people demanded little mac nerfs with Nintendo themselves asking why, they followed through with the nerfs due to the massive community outcry. During smash 4's life cycle Nintendo got wiser and instead of looking to appease the ignorance masses started doing more research before nerfing, and did a pretty good job with their nerfs. Usually translated to just slightly tonning down the issue and not getting rid of it entirely.

If it's the same team that headed late smash 4's team, I wouldn't be too worried.

 

[Arrei]

On the other hand... that same team DID reduce Dedede's air speed for seemingly no reason late into the game's lifespan, at a time his community was desperate for buffs and he was considered one of the game's worst characters. I still don't understand that one.

 

[WeretigerX]

Loved watching MKLeo's win. Although this does bring up a technical question. I though a well-timed Eruption could completely gimp Peach's Up B. He didn't seem to consider it as an option till the end, so I'm wondering if it's even reliable.

Ike's Brawl sound effects were god tier. They never should have changed them.

Totally agree. His newer effects don't have that same oomph that they used to.

 

[Banjobeast158]

So I saw Leo using Dthrow -> Uair -> Fair a couple times during the grand finals set. Is this a true combo or just DI dependent? I tried it on lvl 9 bots with CPU shuffling on the highest and could get it consistently.

 

[san.]

It's true, but you can't use CPUs to test it. The timing is fairly strict since you need to slightly delay the uair and fastfall ASAP.

 

[DrKatz]

So I saw Leo using Dthrow -> Uair -> Fair a couple times during the grand finals set. Is this a true combo or just DI dependent? I tried it on lvl 9 bots with CPU shuffling on the highest and could get it consistently.

I’ve been landing that pretty consistently on bigger characters like Bowser and Ridley, but I don’t think it’s true since they could just DI behind Ike, right?

 

[Banjobeast158]

I see...I'll try to do some more testing then. They could DI behind, but I'm still pretty sure you can get them with a Fair, I'll check!

 

[DrKatz]

I’ve been thinking more about what changes could make Ike less centralized around his nair (despite how much I love his current playstyle). If his nair does get some adjustments, this is what I’d like to see changed:

Fair - Slight range increase to make the attack have longer horizontal reach (think Brawl fair). Potentially a slight power increase too so it’s a viable kill option offstage. Spacing a fair on shield should be rewarding and hard to punish. As it stands, nair has nearly equal range, less risk, and more reward.

Dtilt - Range increase on the end of the hitbox. I swear I’ve tested it in training mode and there are times where it looks like the sword clips my opponent, but they don’t get hit. Maybe extend the hitbox slightly. That’s really all it needs. Spacing it in neutral is difficult now since its range is abysmal. If we lose some of the combo potential from nair, it’d be nice to have dtilt as a reliable combo starter in neutral.

Other than that, I can’t think of any changes. Ike feels really good this time around. The rest of his aerials fulfill a specific purpose. I’d like a bigger hitbox on the bottom part of bair, but I think that’s being a little greedy.

Ftilt feels great as is since it comes out relatively quick and kills early, up-tilt is great if spaced correctly, and all of his specials fulfill a niche in his game plan.

Also, anyone else feel like Ike travels way faster during Quick Draw’s animation in this game? I swear it’s harder to react to than it was in Smash 4.

Edit: Grammar.

 

[Arrei]

Those are the big ones, yeah. My list would add on some buffs that are chiefly intended to make some tools feel better, with any strength buffs as a sort of side effect:

- Utilt's arm hurtbox needs to be removed. The attack is slower and laggier in exchange for its disjoint, so there is no reason for it to stick out a hurtbox as tall as the sword.

- Slightly faster second plume for Eruption. Half a second or so, perhaps? It currently takes like 2.5 seconds to get the second plume. They went to the trouble of giving it the extra two plumes while we rarely have time to charge it to the middle level even when edgeguarding foes that can't harass us with projectiles while recovering, and purposely trying to make use of the second pillar means standing in a spot where the first pillar won't reach the ledge, making the change pointless as is. Given that Ike cannot perform very effectively offstage, allowing him to guard the ledge without sitting directly on the side in prime position for a ledge release aerial would alleviate that some. (Important note is that I don't want the whole move to charge faster, because we don't want that full charge Eruption even with the triple plume effect)

- Fsmash and Usmash need to be faster and less laggy. This is solely because big Chad Ganondorf came in with smashes that are faster, stronger, bigger, and safer, so there's no excuse for these to be inferior in literally every way. Seriously, that bothers me. Almost as much as Cloud stealing our sword lasers.

A bigger Dair spike hitbox had traditionally been on my list, but Ryuga's apparently been having success pulling off Nair to Dair at the ledge. If the combo is true, then buffing Dair would be excessive. Bair's hitbox seems too intentionally changed for me to want it to be buffed. And Quick Draw, well, I've lost hope of that ever giving us more reward than a light noodle slap after three games of it being feeble.

 

[Idon]

- Fsmash and Usmash need to be faster and less laggy. This is solely because big Chad Ganondorf came in with smashes that are faster, stronger, bigger, and safer, so there's no excuse for these to be inferior in literally every way. Seriously, that bothers me. Almost as much as Cloud stealing our sword lasers.

(speaking of which, sword lasers please)

Seriously I think I can count the amount of times I see any of Ike's smashes in a competitive match on one hand.

And it's a balled fist.

 

[WeretigerX]

The smashes need some work for sure. I'm actually okay mostly with Usmash because of how well it punishes dodging. Maybe a few frames safer on whiff or block. Fsmash needs to be actually useful. There's no reason for any move of any character to be entirely useless on a competitive level and I think the Smash team understands that after well over two decades of dealing with this.

As far as a sword laser, it would be cool if Fsmash did something like Link's new Fsmash up until maybe 30%. Just reduce Fsmash's power a bit and increase its speed and then suddenly it becomes somewhat viable.

Also, anyone else feel like Ike travels way faster during Quick Draw’s animation in this game? I swear it’s harder to react to than it was in Smash 4..

Definitely.

 

[Captain Sa10]

D-throw>Uair>fair seems to definitely be a true combo at lower percents, but it is a bit cast specific. If they try to DI back you can just fair from neutral jump and generally hit with the beginning portion of fair.

Side note, d-tilt is amazing. F-tilt too..**** it Ike is just amazing. One of my favorite swordies this go around; I think imma give him a run at a local weekly next week

 

[kirbsmash]

Okay so I found myself loving how Ike is played and might ends up maining him. Any tips, guys?

 

[Banjobeast158]

Okay so I found myself loving how Ike is played and might ends up maining him. Any tips, guys?

There are a few things to note! He has a great air game, but a little lackluster ground game. his air moves are what you will probably be using the most (Nair ---> to different air attacks or tilts for combos) so practice your spacing and combos. While his ground game isn't great, you will need to mix both together frequently to minimize your predictability. His tilts are usually something you don't want to throw out if you are too close. Try and space your Dtilt to avoid punishes. Ftilt is great, and pretty quick, but don't throw it out willy nilly and hope it lands. Same goes for smashes. If you can avoid using Aether to recover, do so. Side B is tricky to intercept so attempt to recover with that first and foremost. His ledge guarding is pretty good too, try and use Fair off stage and Eruption and Dtilt for the 2-frame ledge snap! You can also suicide with Aether in this game and the opponent will always die first (in my experience) so use this if you are daring.

Just go into training and try different combos. You can do Nair into almost any of his moves, so get a feel for them! He has some grab combos as well: Dthrow at low percents, and Uthrow for high. There are a lot of things to work on, it is hard to put it all in a small paragraph...One thing to note is that he has a kill confirm off of Nair ----> Uair at higher percents, so try and get a feel for that combo. It is extremely good!

 

[Wumbo105]

D-throw>Uair>fair seems to definitely be a true combo at lower percents, but it is a bit cast specific. If they try to DI back you can just fair from neutral jump and generally hit with the beginning portion of fair.

Definitely not. Can't get more than one aerial to link after a throw. If you're connecting more than one that just means the guy isn't dodging/jumping away/is braindead.

 

[Banjobeast158]

Definitely not. Can't get more than one aerial to link after a throw. If you're connecting more than one that just means the guy isn't dodging/jumping away/is braindead.

Was working on Samsora. Think it is worth practicing; that or conditioning your opponent do DI away.

 

[Wumbo105]

Was working on Samsora. Think it is worth practicing; that or conditioning your opponent do DI away.

You happen to have a timestamp or clip of it? I watched Leo and Samsora's whole set quite a few times and don't remember seeing anything like that.