Social Radiant Hero of Legend: Ike Thread

[Banjobeast158]

You happen to have a timestamp or clip of it? I watched Leo and Samsora's whole set quite a few times and don't remember seeing anything like that.

Yes! let me find it real quick..

It's at 12:01, looks like he DI's away. Also there is no rage

 

[Captain Sa10]

Definitely not. Can't get more than one aerial to link after a throw. If you're connecting more than one that just means the guy isn't dodging/jumping away/is braindead.

Big part about my post stated it was cast specific, meaning that, it won’t work on everyone. If I have to add a list of who it works on I’ll have to go back and recreate the scenarios which won’t be for awhile as I’m focused on a upcoming tournament.

 

[san.]

Dthrow->uair->fair works best on DI away. With DI in it's possible but much more strict and may not work on all characters (I tested with Mario with a second controller). Higher percents and rage also mess with the window.

That's why you occasionally see dthrow->uair->uair because, while the 2nd uair isn't true, it will force a jump from the opponent (all other options can get punished).

 

[Wumbo105]

Yes! let me find it real quick..

It's at 12:01, looks like he DI's away. Also there is no rage

Wow, I can't believe I missed that. That time in between the uair and fair does seem kinda lengthy tho...are we sure it true combos? Definitely gonna try it out on the cast and see who it does/doesn't work on.

 

[Banjobeast158]

Wow, I can't believe I missed that. That time in between the uair and fair does seem kinda lengthy tho...are we sure it true combos? Definitely gonna try it out on the cast and see who it does/doesn't work on.

Yeah I can see it not working on someone like Pichu, but the only way to see is by testing everyone! I wish training mode was more accurate, I've only heard people say bad things about it..

 

[DrKatz]

Hello fellow Ike mains,

Does anyone else feel like Ike’s gameplan is a bit linear and one dimensional in this game? I love playing him, but it feels like there’s little reason to use some of his other aerials over nair sometimes.

Even as an Ike main, I’m beginning to think it’s be ideal if they took some power away from nair and buffed his fair or something. Thoughts?

 

[Banjobeast158]

Hello fellow Ike mains,

Does anyone else feel like Ike’s gameplan is a bit linear and one dimensional in this game? I love playing him, but it feels like there’s little reason to use some of his other aerials over nair sometimes.

Even as an Ike main, I’m beginning to think it’s be ideal if they took some power away from nair and buffed his fair or something. Thoughts?

I probably wouldn't complain if they did that. I feel like my only quick mix up options are Nair and Dtilt to start combos or approach. Fair is also decent, but it isn't terribly fast/strong. His grab range is pretty bad and punishable so i don't throw it out too often.

 

[Arrei]

I don't think Ike needs to have anything taken away from him in order to boost his other moves - a lot of characters are capable of some wicked combos and setups in this game, and Ike's designed to only have a small but reliable amount of combo options. I think he needs that Nair to stay competitive, and the reason he feels so linear is that his other tools are just too lackluster, not that Nair is too good.

Utilt can't link into anything despite being low-damage and short, Ftilt is exclusively for killing, Dtilt is super short for being the primary ground spacing move on a heavy character, Fair has no reward, Dair continues to be plagued by its trash spike box, edgeguarding is too risky to capitalize on his heavy knockback, Quick Draw has no reward, his smashes are so slow and punishable they're almost dead moves... There's plenty of room for improvement here, and asking to make Nair worse to give him some other power back is basically asking for Smash 4 Ike again, saddled with his low tier placement.


A few examples. Say Utilt gets combo utility. Now he can play mindgames where an opponent has to try and predict if he'll go for the Nairs, or if he'll anticipate them stuffing it out and stay grounded to anti-air for decent reward instead, some easy true combos at low percent and a way to set up juggle situations at mid percent perhaps. If he got a longer Dtilt, he'd feel much more comfortable to stay on the ground against characters who may attempt to rush him down, and he'd be able to actually play like a swordie sometimes on the ground. If Quick Draw became actually dangerous like most other side specials, either by combos like Bayo or by raw damage and KB like Peach or Ganondorf, that'd increase the amount of space he can threaten without having to be in the air, with an appropriate amount of potential risk if it fails. I think a good way to sum it up is, a character with movement and frame data like Ike's is supposed to be scary to approach haphazardly, but until Ike actually gets an enemy to kill percent the only move of his that carries that fear is Nair, which causes the move to be spammed like it's on clearance.

 

[Banjobeast158]

I don't think Ike needs to have anything taken away from him in order to boost his other moves - a lot of characters are capable of some wicked combos and setups in this game, and Ike's designed to only have a small but reliable amount of combo options. I think he needs that Nair to stay competitive, and the reason he feels so linear is that his other tools are just too lackluster, not that Nair is too good.

Utilt can't link into anything despite being low-damage and short, Ftilt is exclusively for killing, Dtilt is super short for being the primary ground spacing move on a heavy character, Fair has no reward, Dair continues to be plagued by its trash spike box, edgeguarding is too risky to capitalize on his heavy knockback, Quick Draw has no reward, his smashes are so slow and punishable they're almost dead moves... There's plenty of room for improvement here, and asking to make Nair worse to give him some other power back is basically asking for Smash 4 Ike again, saddled with his low tier placement.


A few examples. Say Utilt gets combo utility. Now he can play mindgames where an opponent has to try and predict if he'll go for the Nairs, or if he'll anticipate them stuffing it out and staying grounded to anti-air for decent reward instead. If he got a longer Dtilt, he'd feel much more comfortable to stay on the ground against characters who may attempt to rush him down. If Quick Draw became actually dangerous like most other side specials, that'd increase the amount of space he can threaten without being in the air, with an appropriate amount of potential risk.

Ok, yeah I can see what your saying. It just FEELS too strong when it is your primary move in so many cases. In reality I suppose it really isn't when many of his other moves lack semblance to Nair in most regards.

 

[Idon]

Makes no difference to me.

Last games, Ike lived and died by the grab button.

 

[Banjobeast158]

Makes no difference to me.

Last games, Ike lived and died by the grab button.

Yeah was not a fan of having to get that close to people.

 

[TheHero]

Hello fellow Ike mains,

Does anyone else feel like Ike’s gameplan is a bit linear and one dimensional in this game? I love playing him, but it feels like there’s little reason to use some of his other aerials over nair sometimes.

Even as an Ike main, I’m beginning to think it’s be ideal if they took some power away from nair and buffed his fair or something. Thoughts?

I'm surprised you are just now noticing this given you played Ike in PM. Ult Ike is PM Ike without the fun parts, a worse fair, and marginally better Uair.

An easy way to make him more interesting without overhauling Ult is just increase Fair's knock back growth so it can actually kill and continue to work as a combo tool as it does now. Also make it so we don't have to finish the jab combo and can end it with a tilt instead. Nair shouldn't be touched at all.

If eruption's armor could start earlier, like it does in PM, it would work as a fun juggle/string breaker.

 

[DrKatz]

I'm surprised you are just now noticing this given you played Ike in PM. Ult Ike is PM Ike without the fun parts, a worse fair, and marginally better Uair.

An easy way to make him more interesting without overhauling Ult is just increase Fair's knock back growth so it can actually kill and continue to work as a combo tool as it does now. Also make it so we don't have to finish the jab combo and can end it with a tilt instead. Nair shouldn't be touched at all.

If eruption's armor could start earlier, like it does in PM, it would work as a fun juggle/string breaker.

Well said. I noticed it earlier, especially coming from PM. I will never get QD into JC Grab or RAR bair. But a man can dream, haha.

I agree with you completely. To me, fair feels like the most underwhelming move in his kit. I loved the range of Brawl/PM fair as well as the animation. An increase in range and high knockback growth would make the move far more interesting.

 

[TheHero]

I doubt the range on fair will increase. The range on it is strange. I am not sure it is much smaller. The swing is pretty different from the Brawl/PM animation so it is hard to make a direct comparison. In Brawl/PM Ike swings the sword directly in front of him and has his arms clip through his head to do it. In 4/Ult the swing was changed to be in front of his chest so his arms don't clip his head and to keep his body facing the camera (thus keeping his silhouette consistent). The newer animation obviously has less disjoint but the hit boxes should cover the whole sword so the length is the same. I wonder if it is as far across his chest as it would be if his arms were just in front of him while his body goes sideways.

I never had any issues with spacing adjustment between PM and Ult so the sword definitely has not changed length and most of the animations have the same length. I don't actively think that much about spacing Fair anymore than I think about spacing the other moves. Is there a way to directly compare the lengths?


Regarding advancing Ike's kit, I think we already are pretty close to optimal Ike, like 80%, barring any significant patches(significant like wavedash and dash dancing being reintroduced). Ike play will get better/more varied as people get better at Ult and Ult's metagame as a whole develops, but Ike's design keeps the game plan from changing very much.

 

[DrKatz]

Is anyone else tired of hearing people complain about Ike’s nair? It’s practically become a meme at this point.

Maybe the move does too much, but it’s just getting to me lately. Should I just suck it up and let the haters hate, or hope for some tweak to Ike’s kit?

 

[Captain Sa10]

Let them hate because they refuse to adapt. It’s been abundantly clear with Glitch that Nair can be parried and beaten with enough matchup knowledge proving that the move is not Sakurai’s gift to man.

I find it funny really cause there are far worse things to deal with in this game then a good tool that I would expect people to use.

 

[Arrei]

The only reason Ike's getting that attention is MKLeo's win, it'll pass soon enough. Anyone who actually knows Ike knows how many weaknesses he has, and how the move may be his bread and butter but his meal is mostly bread to begin with.

That said, as I mentioned in another thread elsewhere I do feel the response about parrying it to be overblown. Every character can mix up their timing and throw out other options, and trying to parry a kill confirm inherently carries the risk of missing it and losing your stock for it.

 

[DrKatz]

The only reason Ike's getting that attention is MKLeo's win, it'll pass soon enough. Anyone who actually knows Ike knows how many weaknesses he has, and how the move may be his bread and butter but his meal is mostly bread to begin with.

That said, as I mentioned in another thread elsewhere I do feel the response about parrying it to be overblown. Every character can mix up their timing and throw out other options, and trying to parry a kill confirm inherently carries the risk of missing it and losing your stock for it.

I can agree with your assessment about Ike, but I have a point I need to make about parrying.

It’s not a be-all end-all way of countering his nair. As you mentioned, the Ike player can mix up the timing, spacing, and throw out other options. But that’s exactly the point. If you’re too predictable with nair, you’ll be punished for it. That’s what makes the move balanced IMO, it can’t be spammed since it carries a risk of predictability. We even saw at Glitch that MKLeo had to mix up his timing more and start utilizing Ike’s other tools more often. Hell, he even started using dair to approach!

 

[Banjobeast158]

I can agree with your assessment about Ike, but I have a point I need to make about parrying.

It’s not a be-all end-all way of countering his nair. As you mentioned, the Ike player can mix up the timing, spacing, and throw out other options. But that’s exactly the point. If you’re too predictable with nair, you’ll be punished for it. That’s what makes the move balanced IMO, it can’t be spammed since it carries a risk of predictability. We even saw at Glitch that MKLeo had to mix up his timing more and start utilizing Ike’s other tools more often. Hell, he even started using dair to approach!

I need to watch that set. Didn't he use Cloud one of the games? Regardless, 4th is still really nice placing, Leo is so good.

 

[Captain Sa10]

I need to watch that set. Didn't he use Cloud one of the games? Regardless, 4th is still really nice placing, Leo is so good.

Yeah he bust Cloud out twice against Light which ultimately brought him against Nairo’s Palu.

Playing against Gen’s Palu you could start to see a few cracks in his Ike resulting in him having to play a bit less aggressive. I also think that Leo might have felt too confident in the Ike vs Palutena matchup which I find is fairly hard(granted I think fighting Palu is hard in general). This ultimately lead to his defeat to Nairo which honestly showed a few more weaknesses. Here’s althe vodso you won’t have to go looking for it it

This is also good food for thought as the Japanese wolf player zackray likes to use Ike as a secondary specifically for spacies; maybe he knows something we don’t or maybe the spacies players there are not quite as good?

Edit 2- come to think of it Ryuga played a Palu as well and lost. Definitely feeling like Palutena is a tough matchup for Ike. If you think Ike Nair is scary Palu’s is scarier IMO.

 

[Arrei]

Palutena excels at walling out aerial approaches, so that does seem like a bad time for Ike. Her aerial hitboxes apart from Nair are pretty linear through, and her ground normals are on the slow side so it seems like Ike's aerials would be pretty effective against her if he comes in low and tries to get her into the air. I seem to see people saying her recovery is easy to 2-frame as well, I take it the timing on Warp is the same regardless of what distance from the ledge she uses it from?

 

[TheHero]

The thing about the Palutena matchup is that she is faster, but you have a big sword. She is not fast enough to cover the distance of the sword if you swing it at the right times. When playing significantly faster characters your style should shift to be more defensive and zoning focused rather than going for up close nair combos.

 

[DrKatz]

So I’m wondering if any of you can give me advice for the Mario/Pichu matchups, or perhaps Falcon? Basically, general MU advice for fast characters with oppressive combo games.

I was on fire in Elite Smash until just recently. It seems like the online metagame is evolving. I feel like because of Ike’s tall hitbox and generally slow attacks, I get juggled for days. It’s also becoming harder to land a nair when people dash dance out of the way and use their good movement to avoid being tagged by it.

To me, it feels like Ike’s weaknesses are pretty exploitable and I need to up my game. So any general tips for matchups against mobile, combo heavy characters would help. Thanks!

 

[Arrei]

In neutral, I try not to approach with Nair that often against very aggressive characters. More often I'm trying to threaten the airspace instead of aiming directly for them in order to discourage an approach, which allows me to poke with tilts or go for a grab more effectively. An opponent that dash dances too much without committing to an approach, I'll simply hang back and wait for them to get complacent before going for a sudden dash attack, dash into tilt, or even Quick Draw, which won't have much combo utility but at least gets them into the air where they're in danger from Ike's aerials. I'm also fond of occasionally throwing a falling Bair at them, whether it's by turning around or by jumping over them.

It's for these purposes that I'd really like Fair and Dtilt to get buffed, because threatening space gets really unrewarding at the ludicrously large percent range Fair refuses to kill at, and Dtilt's too short to poke effectively.

 

[Captain Sa10]

Palutena excels at walling out aerial approaches, so that does seem like a bad time for Ike. Her aerial hitboxes apart from Nair are pretty linear through, and her ground normals are on the slow side so it seems like Ike's aerials would be pretty effective against her if he comes in low and tries to get her into the air. I seem to see people saying her recovery is easy to 2-frame as well, I take it the timing on Warp is the same regardless of what distance from the ledge she uses it from?

I pretty much agree with this in how we might have to take the matchup(granted I also still feel it’s super tough to play).

Seeing as how SH Nair is pretty good against a grounded Palutena your spacing I feel needs to be pretty spot on otherwise she can potentially punish on shield. It also leads to predictability and she can possibly stuff it before it’s active with:

- SH Nair- which is active frame 5, with additional active hits every 4 frames compared to what used to be every 5(frame 9 second hit, frame 14,etc.)
-U Tilt- Frame 8 with a additional hit every 3 frames.

Not to mention both moves some what shrink her hurtbox making the timing to hit her out of it that much harder. Outside of that I feel we may lose in the aerial department if she’s in the air before us(outside of us juggling of course). Granted if she’s good she’ll never let us really use our range effectively since jumping in with Nair for her is extremely effective on us.

All of this is fine and dandy till we get knocked off the stage. Which she has a abundance of tools to keep us off if the player is decent. On the note of 2 framing her I find it mildly inconsistent with the distances. Honestly, IMO, I don’t feel it’s easy.

The thing about the Palutena matchup is that she is faster, but you have a big sword. She is not fast enough to cover the distance of the sword if you swing it at the right times. When playing significantly faster characters your style should shift to be more defensive and zoning focused rather than going for up close nair combos.

I agree this may be a solution to aid in the matchup. Being defensive against arguably a primarily defensive/zoning character who can still out range and attack faster when she has the aerial advantage is not easy. Unless Ike is already committed to a Fair she can just jump into him and Nair to beat it before it’s active. Not to mention she doesn’t even have to commit to that; she can just shield the Fair and punish.

I do think that we have to play more grounded against her, but it’ll still be a battle of patience. F-tilt, D-tilt, Nair, and Bair are what I think are honestly some of the best things we can do against her. U-tilt is a bit iffy, and Dash attack is probably a good way to punish her side B if we aren’t stuck in shield.

IDK though just constructive food for thought. Again, still a tough fight I feel. Definitely have to be patient...Still my favorite stripper though

Edit- also forgot about parrying which, (if she parried any of those stated moves), is a pretty free punish(except on maybe Bair). IDK, once again she’s still a pain...but I’d still toss dollars on her.

 

[Wumbo105]

So I’m wondering if any of you can give me advice for the Mario/Pichu matchups, or perhaps Falcon? Basically, general MU advice for fast characters with oppressive combo games.

I was on fire in Elite Smash until just recently. It seems like the online metagame is evolving. I feel like because of Ike’s tall hitbox and generally slow attacks, I get juggled for days. It’s also becoming harder to land a nair when people dash dance out of the way and use their good movement to avoid being tagged by it.

To me, it feels like Ike’s weaknesses are pretty exploitable and I need to up my game. So any general tips for matchups against mobile, combo heavy characters would help. Thanks!

People are slowly starting to figure out Ike and what he's bad at, and it's showing more than ever that it's important to have secondaries for this exact reason.

Pichu specifically i feel is a *terrible* matchup for Ike, the damn thing is just unhittable. It's extremely difficult to hit him with a landing FF Nair, which is our primary way of getting things going. And he's quick enough to zip in between swings and throw out an utilt of his own to get his endless strings. Best I can say against this mouse is to space with retreating Fairs, play some footsies with spaced dtilts and ftilts, and try to catch his jumps. It's a bad time no matter what.

I've found Yoshi to be an amazing secondary to deal with Pichu/his big bro Pika.

Mario shouldn't be hard at all...his limbs are stubby and he gets hit by everything. Just do everything you usually do at the very outiside range of your sword and he won't be able to do much at all, Same with Falcon...he loves to run in and dash grab, free Nairs for us.

 

[Arrei]

So going low against Palutena isn't quite as easy as assumed - the final hit of her SH Nair comes out late enough that trying to punish it on block is too slow, causing us to miss or get hit by/jump right into a second Nair. The second Nair can also start poking us through shield if we dawdle. Aether might be able to punish this if she gets predictable, though that is always a risky option and it didn't seem like it caught her in the spin very reliably when she was hovering around in the air. Rehit rate is 4, so don't know if that means if it can be parried or not. It truly is a battle of patience, except she has projectiles.

 

[Banjobeast158]

Sooo was watching a video and saw this guy get a jab lock off of Fair. It was against Bowser at 30% and Ike at 0 rage (0%); no idea if it was true or not, but it looked replicable. Anyone have any experience with it? I'll link the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMyn4yuUDSI

Jab lock is around 1:50.

 

[Arrei]

Judging by Ike's position it might only work against big targets like Bowser, or at least only from point-blank range, since Ike was practically to the left of him when the Fair landed. Fair does have a pretty low knockback angle this time around though so I would hazard a guess it's reliably reproduced.

 

[Banjobeast158]

Judging by Ike's position it might only work against big targets like Bowser, or at least only from point-blank range, since Ike was practically to the left of him when the Fair landed. Fair does have a pretty low knockback angle this time around though so I would hazard a guess it's reliably reproduced.

I was thinking along the same lines. I'll try it out later to make sure. I'm very curious to see if it is applicable across the board, I doubt it though..

 

[Captain Sa10]

Sooo was watching a video and saw this guy get a jab lock off of Fair. It was against Bowser at 30% and Ike at 0 rage (0%); no idea if it was true or not, but it looked replicable. Anyone have any experience with it? I'll link the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMyn4yuUDSI

Jab lock is around 1:50.

That was damn good food for thought. I’ll have to check that grab lock as well.

On a side note I’m pretty happy you posted this! This not only helps confirm a few things in a minor discussion going on in another thread, but also shows some additional combo options that I’m sure many haven’t truly explored. It also shows, IMO, some awesome additional mixups and options we may have with stage control.

 

[Banjobeast158]

Ok, yeah it s pretty hard to do. Don't think it is applicable in 90% of situations =( will try to use it in game and see how it goes.

 

[Arrei]

Might anyone have any good video clips featuring Ikes dealing with aggressive characters, especially ones that can easily cross up shields with dash attack like Meta Knight? I'm having the hardest time figuring out how I can get around those with our ground speed and hitboxes... and I don't get why they made some of these attacks pass shields while intentionally making others get body-blocked.

 

[TheHero]

I don't get why they made some of these attacks pass shields while intentionally making others get body-blocked.

Because crossups are a fundamental part of fighting games and ground crossups were part of smash since the beginning.

Ultimate takes a lot of inspiration from Street Fighter and is closer to Street Fighter than it is to the rest of the Smash series, especially with its limited movement options.

Dealing with faster characters is left to just be a game of footsies with nothing else going on. Just use your sword to out space them and focus on dtilt and nair to start things while spacing safely and jab to reset back to neutral.

 

[Arrei]

I know about cross-ups, I'm specifically confused as to why they gutted some of those cross-up moves but left others alone. They made some potential crossups slam their faces into shields for easy punishes, but some like Wolf and Meta Knight's dash attacks go right through. Fox Illusion, Falco Phantasm, and Heel Slide can't pass through shield anymore, Ganondorf can pass through at early frames of both his down special and dash attack, but gets stopped at other parts. Ike's dash attack involves an initial burst of speed that seems like it would pass through an opponent but he gets body-blocked for the full duration. It's perplexingly inconsistent.

 

[san.]

It's kind of funny since Ike's dash attack and quick draw animations are seemingly designed to go through opponents instead of awkwardly stopping in front of them when looking at similar attacks throughout various media.

It's definitely looking move dependent and we'll have to keep an eye out until we build the intuition for punishment.

 

[KCCHIEFS27]

What stages are you guys liking best for our guy? I've been liking Town and City as well as hazardless Smashville, and of course any BF-esque stage is always solid.

Do we have a "best" stage in Ultimate? I can't seem to settle on a go to

 

[Idon]

What stages are you guys liking best for our guy? I've been liking Town and City as well as hazardless Smashville, and of course any BF-esque stage is always solid.

Do we have a "best" stage in Ultimate? I can't seem to settle on a go to

I'm a fan of PS/PS2 honestly. I find the top platform a bit awkwars to get down from on BFs.

 

[san.]

Ike likes these qualities in a stage:

• Low ceiling
• Close blastzones from the ledge
• Platforms to ladder and recover
• Not TOO many platforms that makes it tough to full hop and opponents can hide under them (middle platform, long platforms)
• Not too great for the opponent

PS2 has all these qualities, being relatively neutral for most characters, but really good for Ike. Platforms are small and a bit higher up, so it doesn't mess up his neutral and he can aerial around the platforms easily. Ceiling is low, so he can use the platforms for extremely early kills, or not even rely on the platforms at all. Close side blastzones from the ledge, so Ike can ledge trap effectively and kill early.

The last bullet is extremely opponent and opens the door for many other stages. Ike might like FD against certain characters since it has a low ceiling and some characters can't land against him.

High ceiling stages might help him vs. some characters as well since he can get the confirm on every stage regardless, but he might be able to survive longer.

 

[Arrei]

So the first patch is here and the only change Ike got was a reduced meteor distance on Aether, alongside Chrom getting his Soaring Slash suicide kill nerfed to end him first... but interestingly, Ike does not have the note about dying first next to his change. And it seems like opponents are dying first in training mode if Aether catches them at or below the ledge, while Ike dies first if he tries to pull a cheeky onstage kill. So obviously they wanted to nerf the kill combos both could pull off with it onstage, but could it be they intentionally made Chrom always die first while letting Ike get away with it below the stage?