Social Radiant Hero of Legend: Ike Thread

[Idon]

So the first patch is here and the only change Ike got was a reduced meteor distance on Aether, alongside Chrom getting his Soaring Slash suicide kill nerfed to end him first... but interestingly, Ike does not have the note about dying first next to his change. And it seems like opponents are dying first in training mode if Aether catches them at or below the ledge, while Ike dies first if he tries to pull a cheeky onstage kill. So obviously they wanted to nerf the kill combos both could pull off with it onstage, but could it be they intentionally made Chrom always die first while letting Ike get away with it below the stage?

Ah so rip nair->aether

 

[Arrei]

Oh wow, it's a sure confirm. Ike still wins if he catches the opponent lower, but Chrom falls MEGA fast, way faster than his opponent, and dies first. Wild. I actually wonder if his up special even still proper links into the ending hit with this speed difference.

However, the death lightning seems to be gone even if Ike wins.

The plot thickens... it seems blast zone distance matters. Ike dies first using Aether from the ground on Battlefield, but dies second on Final Destination. DI doesn't seem to change the death order in these instances. Does Battlefield have the farthest bottom blast zone? It could be that one is just far enough that the opponent leaves hitstun.

It's also worth mentioning that Cloud's Climhazzard and Mii Brawler's whatever special weren't touched, so they don't have a specific problem with this kind of move - it's likely Ike and Chrom only had theirs touched because they could be used from just about anywhere in the air and the opponent would be meteored all the way down.


...Hrngh?! It also occurs to me, they lowered Ganon's Fair landing lag in this patch... Ganon's monstrous 18 damage Fair that kills super easily already had less landing lag than Ike's, now it has even less. What the hell?

 

[Captain Sa10]

It’s basically a change that I still think was unnecessary for either character and is just a knee jerk reaction to people complaining. It now limits the Ike from having a few specific options after Nair, but idk. They didn’t touch his other things which is great.

 

[Arrei]

The fact that Chrom could combo into his from the middle of the stage was rather concerning, I must admit. The fact that Ike could only get it at the ledge at certain percents may have been the only reason he still has his.

But I'm rather dismayed to see the total absence of any buffs in here.

 

[Banjobeast158]

So the first patch is here and the only change Ike got was a reduced meteor distance on Aether, alongside Chrom getting his Soaring Slash suicide kill nerfed to end him first... but interestingly, Ike does not have the note about dying first next to his change. And it seems like opponents are dying first in training mode if Aether catches them at or below the ledge, while Ike dies first if he tries to pull a cheeky onstage kill. So obviously they wanted to nerf the kill combos both could pull off with it onstage, but could it be they intentionally made Chrom always die first while letting Ike get away with it below the stage?

I think that is probably intentional. Chrom had a true combo with Nair -> Nair -> Aether to kill on stage (correct me if I'm wrong) so I can see why they wanted to get rid of it. Ike, I don't think had a confirm into an Aether kill, unless you count his Nair at the ledge. I don't know if his is true though. Anyways, I tried it too and went frame by frame (training mode) and they indeed died first. Either an oversight or intended, I'm leaning towards intended.

EDIT: Was fiddling around with Aether more. If you snap the ledge, but the opponent is still onstage when you do so, they will get sent much less high than before the patch. It makes it much easier to combo into something like Bair or Uair after an Aether snap now. I'm actually terrible with the technicalities of the game, but I guess since the meteor duration, or whatever, was shortened, it decreased the knock back when they hit the ground?

 

[Arrei]

I'm pretty sure "duration" was just their weird way of saying they reduced its knockback value, which in turn allows opponents to leave hitstun without dying if Ike caught them high above the stage or something. Because the move had some HUGE knockback before, sending opponents sky high in that scenario you described even though it only does a few percent of damage. I'm gonna assume it's a bit more in line with moves like Climhazzard now, though the lack of special zoom on kill feels rather... unsatisfying.

Something I found really interesting during this testing, though, is that Ike wins any of these exchanges but visibly falls slightly faster than the opponent. Like you can see him below the victim when you slow it down frame by frame, but as they both cross the bottom threshold the victim explodes several frames before Ike does. Is there a range down there that kills you only if you're in hitstun, larger than the default death from just falling off?

 

[san.]

Yes, there are 2 layers so that most characters with offstage spikes will die second.

 

[TheHero]

I think they just ran into some issue making Ike die first consistently. It is stage, matchup, and position dependent. Here is a spread sheet on doing it at 0 on battlefield from ledge. https://twitter.com/Insie71/status/1090508348384980997?s=19

I expect it to consistently kill Ike first in the next patch because Sakurai hates fun. Every single suicide move kills the initiator first because Sakurai doesn't like having people finish a game with high risk moves. There is no reason Ike or Chrom would be exempt from this.

I really wish Sakurai had better taste.

 

[Arrei]

I don't know about that - Ike had the note about dying first omitted from his change, unlike Chrom, and there is a super obvious difference in how fast Chrom plummets to his doom compared to Ike. And as I mentioned, Cloud and Mii Brawler still die second when using their up specials as suicide kills at ledge height or below. There is a pretty good chance they were specifically targeting the Chrombo, unless we see changes to those moves as well next patch.

 

[TheHero]

I don't know about that - Ike had the note about dying first omitted from his change, unlike Chrom, and there is a super obvious difference in how fast Chrom plummets to his doom compared to Ike. And as I mentioned, Cloud and Mii Brawler still die second when using their up specials as suicide kills at ledge height or below. There is a pretty good chance they were specifically targeting the Chrombo, unless we see changes to those moves as well next patch.

Ike is missing the note because it is inconsistent as to when he dies now. Do it at zero from the stage with Bowser, Ike dies first. Do the same thing with Little Mac, and Mac dies first. Previous version made it so it Ike was always second.

Ike and Chrom were unusual compared to all the other options for suicide kills, which killed the initiator first. That alone tells you something was up with their design. The fact that they are trying to make Chrom consistently lose(though I have heard there are still situations that work in his favor) tells us that Sakurai really dislikes suicide moves and wants to remove them as an option just as they had been steadily removed since Brawl.

They aren't going to say "Ike dies first" till they can actually get it to that point. In another patch or two they'll figure it out and you will see it say "Ike dies first".

If only people actually cared about suicide moves but most of the smash 4 players and new players seem to think that if a move is safe on hit it is broken.

 

[T-Donor66]

Uh, I think you guys have a new Ike main in your ranks. This character REALLY clicked with me. Like really, really clicked.

 

[Arrei]

Ike is missing the note because it is inconsistent as to when he dies now. Do it at zero from the stage with Bowser, Ike dies first. Do the same thing with Little Mac, and Mac dies first. Previous version made it so it Ike was always second.

Ike and Chrom were unusual compared to all the other options for suicide kills, which killed the initiator first. That alone tells you something was up with their design. The fact that they are trying to make Chrom consistently lose(though I have heard there are still situations that work in his favor) tells us that Sakurai really dislikes suicide moves and wants to remove them as an option just as they had been steadily removed since Brawl.

They aren't going to say "Ike dies first" till they can actually get it to that point. In another patch or two they'll figure it out and you will see it say "Ike dies first".

If only people actually cared about suicide moves but most of the smash 4 players and new players seem to think that if a move is safe on hit it is broken.

The point is that makes little sense when they could have easily just made Aether behave the same way as Soaring Slash. And I've said several times Climhazzard and Soaring Axe Kick still kill their victims first.

 

[TheHero]

The point is that makes little sense when they could have easily just made Aether behave the same way as Soaring Slash. And I've said several times Climhazzard and Soaring Axe Kick still kill their victims first.

Aether and soaring slash are under no obligation to behave the same, and it would be dumb to look at them as the same move do to how dramatically different the kits are, and the major difference in sword positions. I suspect that Cloud's and Mii's attacks will be nerfed going forward as we can see they already are trying to nerf Ike and Chrom, but have not been totally successful. It wouldn't be surprising if the dev build has those moves be dramatically more inconsistent than Aether is now.

The only thing that would make me move away from my hypothesis is if they revert Aether and keep Soaring Slash nerfed/nerf it more. If everything gets reverted I assume there has been a change of heart regarding suicide moves, or their balance and design has been completely taken out of Sakurai's hands.

 

[Arrei]

No obligation to behave the same way, yet you're claiming they specifically wanted to gut both of them and that Aether will be nerfed to behave the same way as Soaring Slash on a suicide kill. You're claiming the two of them were targeted for sharing a unique trait of killing the victim first, which I pointed out was untrue due to Climhazzard and Axe Kick's behavior. You're claiming it made more sense to set out with a specific goal of making both moves kill the user first, see that one of them did not kill the user first after easily succeeding with the other move, and then just leave it that way for the time being instead of adjusting Aether's descent to similarly kill Ike first.

It's possible you're right and they have a vendetta against these moves. It's possible Climhazzard, Axe Kick, and Aether will all receive additional changes to neuter this mechanic across the board. But you can't tell me they wanted Aether and Soaring Slash to behave the same way, and then tell me they don't have to behave the same way. For now, evidence points to them wanting to address the Chrombo and how the two moves possessed such immense knockback they would meteor all the way to the blast zone from the top of the screen.

Edit: Now what does give me pause about this, is that apparently according to Beefy Smash Doods Chrom may also be able to sometimes die second if he catches the opponent from low enough. I would expect the opponents and height it works on are even stricter than on Ike's, but we'll have to see if they keep changing them or leave them alone from now on.

 

[TheHero]

But you can't tell me they wanted Aether and Soaring Slash to behave the same way, and then tell me they don't have to behave the same way. For now, evidence points to them wanting to address the Chrombo and how the two moves possessed such immense knockback they would meteor all the way to the blast zone from the top of the screen.

They are being targeted as suicide moves but not as the same move. Echoes have been obligated to be follow the same changes as the character they echo(excluding Ken who really should've never been given the echo moniker and was given it basically as a formality). Thus when Roy's dair got less lag, so did Chrom's. When Roy is changed, Chrom is obligated to get similar changes. Chrom's Soaring Slash does not have this relationship with Aether. They have dramatically different hitboxes by design (Ike is able to catch people above him with what is essentially a projectile, or can trigger early counters safely where Chrom cannot). There is a relationship between the moves as suicide moves(according to my own hypothesis) which means they will get similar changes for similar reasons but under different pretenses.

 

[Arrei]

The point I was getting at was that just because they don't have to behave the same way, doesn't mean they can't behave the same way if it suits their purposes. I don't think it would have been difficult to just make Aether descend at the same speed as Soaring Slash if they had set out with the explicit goal of making both moves not end in the user's favor. They appeared to have, and appear to still have, the same knockback value despite their different travel speeds as well, which doesn't make much sense if they were aiming to change both moves' values to something that would kill them first.

Meanwhile, the crux of your hypothesis relied on the assumption that suicide moves needed to be gutted, but the other two specials being untouched currently means there's no evidence to back it up. I've also since learned that Kirby's Final Cutter also exhibits this behavior against non-Jigglypuff opponents when below the stage. Only when we see those moves also being changed will we have something to anticipate this with.

Not that I think you're wholly unjustified in expecting this from the dev team. After all, Aether didn't even HAVE a descending spike until now despite visually having every reason to have one, and they did have this stance previously in past games. But I think the fact that every single suicide spike of this nature is capable of killing the opponent first is enough evidence to say they intentionally gave them this behavior in this game, and Ike's and Chrom's were just the outliers in that they had much more power than was necessary for them to function, and Chrom was the nail that stuck out and got hammered down because of his Chrombo.

 

[Arrei]

Have the rest of y'all been working surprise Quick Draws into your arsenal more? I'm still unhappy about how it's devoid of any direct reward off a successful hit, but I've been feeling how important it is to have a burst movement option in Ike's repertoire lately. I've complained of his ground spacing being lacking before, so Quick Draw allowing him to threaten a much greater distance than his normals would suggest comes into play quite frequently. Aggressive opponents who like to attempt to land by stuffing out one of our approaches leave themselves wide open to Ike instead stopping his approach and charging QD to pop them back into the air, forcing them to be more wary about being in our face. Now if only it did more damage than half a jab combo for the trouble...

 

[san.]

Quick draw should definitely be used occasionally. It is essentially a dash attack that may be used in the air, with the hit detection and endlag improved. It's an easy button to press for whiff punishing even if you're in the air baiting with aerials, and it could beat out many attacks. While the damage is low, the endlag when near the ground has been sufficiently reduced to the point where Ike may continue to press an advantage without completely going back to neutral.

 

[TheHero]

Why aren't you guys just playing Ike in Project M at this point?

 

[Banjobeast158]

Why aren't you guys just playing Ike in Project M at this point?

We can have dreams =,(

 

[Arrei]

Because Project M isn't Smash Ultimate? Bit of a silly question, if you ask me.

 

[TheHero]

Because Project M isn't Smash Ultimate? Bit of a silly question, if you ask me.

It's a joke. You guys complain about things like fair not being strong enough, and now Quickdraw as a surprise tool. You basically want Project M Ike which Ult Ike is mostly a knock off of.

 

[Cereal Bawks]

Fair not being strong enough is mostly because of it being nerfed from Smash 4.

But yeah, please give us PM QD.

 

[Arrei]

Yeah, Ike's Fair has been a staple of his kit since the start and we still just find it quite odd that they'd take away so much of its power, kill its autocancel, and slap even more endlag on top of it. It's certainly quicker than it used to be back in the Brawl days but that makes the endlag feel even weirder. I've actually been wondering if perhaps it was weakened because its new knock back angle is very horizontal and might be difficult to recover from... But even a simple dropzone Fair is rather hazardous to our health now, at the same time.

And conversely, Quick Draw has been garbage since the start and we find that odd in a different way.

 

[DrKatz]

Why aren't you guys just playing Ike in Project M at this point?

PM Ike main here! *raises hand* I absolutely adore Ike in Project M and all the QuickDraw shenanigans he has in that game. In fact, playing Ike in Project M is what got me interested in the character in the first place!

And that’s actually precisely why I’m playing Ike in Smash Ultimate. This is the closest Ike has been to his PM counterpart. He’s fast, he has great kill confirms, QD can actually be used in neutral (although I’ll always miss QD into JC grab) and his throw game has some amazing follow ups.

I play Ike in Smash Ultimate because I love Ike in Smash Ultimate. It’s my second favorite version of Ike ever, only to PM, but unlike Project M - Ultimate has a great tournament scene, it’s not “dying”, and it’s not a mod of a decade old game.

Plus the game is beautiful. All in all, I’m not complaining. Ike is great in PM, and Ike is great in Ultimate. Glad they finally got the character right (IMHO).

Edit: Grammar

 

[Idon]

Why aren't you guys just playing Ike in Project M at this point?

Let me tell ya brother, I would if I could.

 

[Arrei]

Have you folks found buffered SH Nair any use to us outside of platform pressure, as opposed to the usual delayed FF Nair? That type of option is usually used to approach with a lingering hitbox or punish out of shield but Ike's is both slow and starts above him, making it rather ineffective for those purposes.

 

[san.]

Have you folks found buffered SH Nair any use to us outside of platform pressure, as opposed to the usual delayed FF Nair? That type of option is usually used to approach with a lingering hitbox or punish out of shield but Ike's is both slow and starts above him, making it rather pretty ineffective for those purposes.

Yes, it covers space fairly well even if you use it like a fair. If you use nair like a forward air, it's not really that lacking in speed, reaching in front of Ike around frame 12-13. Short hop nair into immediate fastfall is about as safe on shield as his ftilt that is -7 on shield drop, and will hit out of shield before a shield release into ftilt.

It's decent out of shield in terms of safety, but jump OoS is such a common option that most attempt to cover it quickly. It's also a good situational anti-air along with bair.

It's not just buffered, but a spectrum where you can either reactively use nair no matter the height. Usually a small delay is best for this (like a few frames after jumping).

You have to be very wary of your aerial drift, mostly holding back after your initial jump drift, unless you can identify a crossup scenario.
Ike can combo off of a rising nair at mid %s, so it doesn't lose much reward at that point.

 

[Jotun873]

What should i do OoS as ike? I generally try grab as its one of his faster options since his OoS game generally sucks, problem is grab isnt always in range or even safe.

 

[TheHero]

Your only fast options is bair, but that obviously requires them to be behind you. Nair only works if they choose a slow option.

Ike's best OoS option has really been unchanged since Brawl: don't get caught in shield in the first place

Parrying works really well though. Parry>counter is funny option against multihitmoves.

 

[Arrei]

I may have inadvertently discovered Ganondorf's Dsmash catches Ike out of a techroll away after Flame Choke? There might be a stray limb hurtbox poking out just far enough to get clipped by the first hit, which is something to be wary of. I don't have the means to check a 2-player situation like that in Training, but I killed an Ike that way just now when it definitely didn't look like I should have caught him.

 

[DrKatz]

So it seems like since MKLeo “dropped” Ike, he’s been relatively unexplored and considered too linear to be at the top of the meta. Even Ryo put out a video saying he wasn’t going to main Ike since he felt the character didn’t allow him the creative expression he had in older games.

I’m gonna challenge those beliefs and want to keep developing Ike’s tech and improving him in the meta. I was working on a pretty interesting Jab-lock setup recently. And wanted to know if you guys have tested it.

~25% (Tested on Wolf, Joker, and Roy) Nair > Bair > Dash Jab1 > Jab2 > Dtilt > Bair.

Full combo does around 50%. If they can tech roll to escape you can option select with Dtilt and omit the jablock.

Edi: Unfortunately this isn’t a true combo. Found out you can jump out of it, air dodge, or easily tech away since Ike is too slow to chase. Back to the drawing board I suppose!

 

[RavenKing50]

Hello

 

[Qualk]

Hello

Is that him??

 

[RavenKing50]

Yes that is me lol. A bit of an old account but I might be here every now and than

 

[Qualk]

Yes that is me lol. A bit of an old account but I might be here every now and than

What do you think of my matchup guide?

 

[RavenKing50]

I think its good that we have it as a resource and the vods that were linked are solid. I do have a couple disagreements with a couple mus but thats more of my personal opinion rather than fact plus everyone views mus differently. I think maybe in the future you could add specific stages where they be good to go in the mu explanation. We have a solid idea where we should go in general but some mus we want to go different ones than our usual. other than that I don't have much else to say and thank you for making the guide on your own spare time!

 

[Qualk]

I think its good that we have it as a resource and the vods that were linked are solid. I do have a couple disagreements with a couple mus but thats more of my personal opinion rather than fact plus everyone views mus differently. I think maybe in the future you could add specific stages where they be good to go in the mu explanation. We have a solid idea where we should go in general but some mus we want to go different ones than our usual. other than that I don't have much else to say and thank you for making the guide on your own spare time!

Thanks, will do! Just watched your matches against Fatality on his stream, great stuff! I liked how you stayed on the ledge and then dropped off, jumped, and N-aired to edgeguard I haven't seen any other Ike do that.

 

[RavenKing50]

yeah its a nice underrated option against characters with a linear recovery. I have posted a combo of it on twitter a couple days ago and it blew up lol

 

[Mister.Kim1]

Up Air change: Perhaps the best Ike buff that I benefit from aside from Eruption.