R.I.P. Kjell Anders "Nappy" Peterson.

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Its a huge difference too. I wasn't being super accurate to the frame, but he did get a +1 with Ftilt while against say Olimar it was a -10 or so. Sort of surprised about the difference.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

This goes against all logic and everything I've ever been taught.

Zelda's down tilt has the same properties but the advantage lessens on heavier characters. Only difference is that Snakes is fixed knockback.

Not saying I don't believe you, but I'm curious of how you verified this?

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Plugged in the frame advance code and go into vs mode on infinite time in Final Destination. Snake goes into Ftilt1 animation counting the frames (ignoring hitlag), then hold shield for both characters while advancing the frames. Shield is a one frame visual and comes out the moment a character can do something. It came out for the Ftilt1 Snake one frame faster than the characters being hit; Snake, Ike, or DDD.

I usually use holding shield on the ground as the visual cue that they can now do something after exiting an animation or taking knockback.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

What were the opponents damage % like?

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

It was accomplished at varies percents starting at 0% to as high as 100%. I didn't imagine a fixed knockback move like this would matter with percent, so I didn't look at it too strictly. Not that it made a difference. Only decay came to mind and it didn't change any either. Decay in the past in testing for me has only altered results by a frame at most when looking for first viable action after knockback.

 

[Attila_]

i dont get it.

are you saying that if we hit snake/ike/d3 with an ftilt, we have 1 frame advantage?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Fairly certain that's what he's saying.

That's a useless advantage though, Snake can't use +1.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

That is waht I mean. But its interesting to know who this works for.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

That surprises me considering I get ftilt 1 -> grab against Olimar more often than against any other character.

 

[Bonds]

We could potentially use that +1 to throw out jab/grab mixups since jab is only frame 3.

On an unrelated note, I had a pretty awesome kill in doubles with MJG/Fino/Lux last night. I don't remember if I was teaming with MJG or Lux, but they were fighting over on the right side of bf and I got hit by the crossfire. I di-ed straight down into fino and momentum canceled with a fair spike on him

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Well if anyone else is like me, I personally always hold shield when I'm getting hit on the ground, so...

I get MC bair/fair kills all the time in doubles with everyone but Snake.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

It honestly depends upon the player. I've run into some seriously jab crazed yoshi's in the past or Ftilting Snake fiends. They jab/ftilt at soonest time possible. Similar to Ike with jabs or a Falco and jab. jab -> powershield -> shieldgrab has become my all time favorite jab cancel method.

Snake, best character to trade with. He'll usually always be on the losing end of the exchange, but sometimes he comes to collect.

 

[Black Mantis]

Any vids on all of this?

 

[Bonds]

All of what?

Never mind on the jab mixup thing out of ftilt, it'll probably be powershielded. Grab is still a better option unless they try to spotdodge.

 

[Black Mantis]

Vids on the advantages of ftilt just being discussed.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

There are none. :3

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I can whip up a video in 30 minutes to show the obvious visual comparisons between say Olimar and DDD. But, it would have to wait until later. Sleep, work, sleep, lawn, freedom.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

That looks like a dratini.

Is it a dratini?

pls say yes

 

[Ralph Cecil]

All of what?

Never mind on the jab mixup thing out of ftilt, it'll probably be powershielded. Grab is still a better option unless they try to spotdodge.

I guess if you expect the spotdodge dair or a run past them then pivot grab might get them. =D

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Maybe I'm just stupid ... but how can ftilt 1 -> ftilt 2 work vs Olimar if you get -10 on hit with ftilt 1?!?

 

[Ralph Cecil]

I think they mean it's -10 if you try to do anything, but ftilt 2.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

What Ralph said is what is going on. I was discussing frame advantage off of ftilt1 -> jab/shield/dodge/etc. Anything not Ftilt2 related.

Sorry Aero, you see the wings on the side of the head, and you know what pokemon it is.

 

[Bonds]

Ninjaed by Xeylode

I was looking up the frame data thread to give specifics. From what it says, I can interpret that if you do anything other than ftilt2 out of ftilt1 to olimar out of connecting with ftilt1, it's -10. However, since the full move is 32 frames and the iasa to ftilt2 is 11 frames, that would make ftilt1 into ftilt2 on olimar something like +12 (effectively guaranteed as long as they don't SDI or get hit while in the air).

Would someone please verify or correct this for me? I am still learning how to work with frame data.

Also Ralph, that is true on the dair. I love that move so much.

 

[ViperGold42]

Ninjaed by Xeylode

I was looking up the frame data thread to give specifics. From what it says, I can interpret that if you do anything other than ftilt2 out of ftilt1 to olimar out of connecting with ftilt1, it's -10. However, since the full move is 32 frames and the iasa to ftilt2 is 11 frames, that would make ftilt1 into ftilt2 on olimar something like +12 (effectively guaranteed as long as they don't SDI or get hit while in the air).

Would someone please verify or correct this for me? I am still learning how to work with frame data.

Also Ralph, that is true on the dair. I love that move so much.

..............................................................................................................already been done.

 

[Ralph Cecil]

Also Ralph, that is true on the dair. I love that move so much.

Yeah I do too except for when I jump too far forward and they pop out or when they somehow spot dodge all of it. :V

 

[Bonds]

I just hate it when people pop out due to sdi...

I only use nair to kill after pushing people off platforms and dair on roll reads now pretty much =/

I also wish fair wasn't so laggy. comes out on frame 23 and ends on frame 70 wth. Although Lux and I were talking about it a little while ago and we might've found a way to frametrap into it. I'm going to be testing it next time I play to be sure.

 

[Ralph Cecil]

I hate it even worse when someone I know can't sdi pops out of it. >_<>_<>_<>_<>_<

 

[KuroganeHammer]

There was a point in time when I was going to redo Snake's frame data in more detail, plus fix any minor errors, and put it in a easy to read format but then I decided not to~

 

[Bonds]

why didn't you =(

That would be a very nice tool to have. Especially considering a lot of the moves don't have hitbox duration listed, or they do but don't show the overlap (if any). Upair doesn't seem like it really lasts 25 frames..

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Mmm.

Maybe I'll do it if I can be bothered.

I mean, I did do Wolf's and Dedede's, Snake's should be easy.

 

[Attila_]

I just hate it when people pop out due to sdi...

I only use nair to kill after pushing people off platforms and dair on roll reads now pretty much =/

I also wish fair wasn't so laggy. comes out on frame 23 and ends on frame 70 wth. Although Lux and I were talking about it a little while ago and we might've found a way to frametrap into it. I'm going to be testing it next time I play to be sure.

a large amount of characters pop out of dair's third hit regardless of sdi, unless they go into a trip animation (12% chance of occuring iirc). these characters (lighter ones) will normally get hit off the ground, so the third hit doesnt connect.

and then there are other characters that have such small hurtboxes that, unless your spacing is DEAD PERFECT, they wont get hit after ther first 2-3 (diddy kong, im looking at you here).

and nair on platforms isnt safe; unless you hit someone off the platform with the first hit, they should be able to just roll behind in between the hits.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Nair is an okay move to throw out on a hard read. I think it is sort of hard to punish if you are retreating, therefore, the person has to literally run into the move themselves. I think the best use I have seen it used for his people who love to full hop after attacks. TL for example is the one I have in mind. A lot of their camping involves going into the air with full hop to get the time to throw projectiles and pluck them. So, on the right timing shielddash -> FH Nair can work as a hard read.

I'll always think Dair is a horrible move out of shield, and never should be used. I always remember that shield drop -> ftilt is actually faster than dair. If I recall, Snake has a 10 frame jump squat, and Dair comes out on frame 3 at first (and only below him). So, a hitbox is out on frame 13 instead of 11, and Ftilt gets more range horizontally. Its also less risky on hit too because if ftilt hits, you are guaranteed the 2nd one. If the first hit of Dair connects, it might get dropped and you get punished.

If only 3 hits connect, Ftilt1 -> ftilt2 still does roughtly the same damage as Dair even when slightly staled. Its only if all 4 moves hit that it outright beats Ftilt as an option. I think using Dair from the ledge is the only decent use for it.

 

[Ralph Cecil]

diddy kong, im looking at you here

Ok that's good to know, because that was the character I mainly had in mind when complaining about it. >_<

 

[Bonds]

and nair on platforms isnt safe; unless you hit someone off the platform with the first hit, they should be able to just roll behind in between the hits.

Really? I didn't actually know that, I've never had anyone try to roll behind it before. Still, good to know.

 

[False]

Alright snakes, gonna make you proud. leaving today to play with Mr-R, leon, glutonny! then you can see me on live stream at SKTAR in 2 days. peace!

 

[Okuser]

Alright snakes, gonna make you proud. leaving today to play with Mr-R, leon, glutonny! then you can see me on live stream at SKTAR in 2 days. peace!

top 10 or you leave smashboards FOREVER

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

top 10 or you leave smashboards FOREVER

Top1 and you match the winnings Okuser.

 

[Black Mantis]

I can whip up a video in 30 minutes to show the obvious visual comparisons between say Olimar and DDD. But, it would have to wait until later. Sleep, work, sleep, lawn, freedom.

Let me know when you can put a vid up.

Also, good luck to all the Snake players at SKTAR this weekend.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

When recording these I realized I made a mistake. I hit Olimar with a different hitbox with Ftilt1 than I did with Ike, Snake, and DDD. At range, Olimar is actually at a disadvantage like the other 3. But, when up close Olimar (ftilt1 literally on top of him) instead of staying in place on the ground, he slides away and can get out of the stun sooner and thus is not at a disadvantage. The hitbox actually knocks Olimar off the ground at higher percents too. And to add to this, Snake had a +2 frame advantage on that spaced Ftilt1 hit.

Ranged Ftilt1
Close Ftilt1

So, this should be more natural for you Aero, and it fits with what you likely noticed Gheb.
Edit: Damn. Why does brawl always troll us. If there was only a couple more frames of stun snake could have had legit combos off of ftilt1 cancels ignoring SDI.

 

[Heartstring]

(@post above):this is the first social ive been into that actually discusses important stuff...

Anyway, hey guys. Been playing this game for forever but I've only recently (as in, few weeks) picked up snake as a secondary character to ike. I'm Primarily using snake to deal with MK, Olimar and Wario. So I need to ask a few questions about them 3 in particular. All i need to know is what specific grenade things should I be donig to those characters in particular, what moves should I be using more/less against these 3, Etcetc.