Quick Draw is a misunderstood frame trap.

[Arturito_Burrito]

an uncharged QD hits on frame 30-32 I can see why you think it's a frame trap now though you don't even know how long MK has to start up the tornado. If you still think Ike can hit MK out of the tornado then you should stop fighting computers.

 

[Alphicans]

Yagami I actually prooved my point. You said that ike will always come out of QD in an advantageous position, but when I am on a platform, I know his trajectory, and I can act accordingly. Plus you're only factoring in frames, not a players ability to trick. I could bait an ike into releasing QD way sooner than he wants. This is too complex to discover, because the variations are in such vast quantities we couldn't cover it all. I will say this though, QD is not a perfect trap, and it seems like this thread is trying to say that. Correct me if I am wrong.

 

[Kirk]

Yagami I actually prooved my point. You said that ike will always come out of QD in an advantageous position, but when I am on a platform, I know his trajectory, and I can act accordingly. Plus you're only factoring in frames, not a players ability to trick. I could bait an ike into releasing QD way sooner than he wants. This is too complex to discover, because the variations are in such vast quantities we couldn't cover it all. I will say this though, QD is not a perfect trap, and it seems like this thread is trying to say that. Correct me if I am wrong.

YES!

 

[YagamiLight]

an uncharged QD hits on frame 30-32 I can see why you think it's a frame trap now though you don't even know how long MK has to start up the tornado. If you still think Ike can hit MK out of the tornado then you should stop fighting computers.

If you are going to insult someone, I highly recommend you check the data first:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=202204

Scroll down to Meta Knight. Neutral B. See the number 12?

Now go here:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=202837

Go to Quick Draw and you'll see:
~Uncharged~
Hit(from release): 2-12 (19-29 Total)

The earliest Quick Draw hits is NOT frame 30-32, it is frame 19. Even if the Meta Knight is in a neutral position and Ike fires off an instant Quick Draw, it still works out for Ike. He most certainly can't drop a shield and tornado. Do try to read, AB. Honestly.

Yagami I actually prooved my point. You said that ike will always come out of QD in an advantageous position, but when I am on a platform, I know his trajectory, and I can act accordingly. Plus you're only factoring in frames, not a players ability to trick. I could bait an ike into releasing QD way sooner than he wants. This is too complex to discover, because the variations are in such vast quantities we couldn't cover it all. I will say this though, QD is not a perfect trap, and it seems like this thread is trying to say that. Correct me if I am wrong.

You have a valid point: Quick Draw is not a perfect frame trap with platforms, as it will result in Ike being forced into an early release. Likewise, players are not perfect and can be tricked.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

*sigh* your stupid frame trap has 2 answers ok? If its at the point where it will hit 2 frames after its release it means MK can Dtilt you and the first dtilt will reach you. Do you honestly think it will hit on frame 2 out side of that range?

And for frame 29 then the MK has enough time to get into the strong tornado in which case you'll just get swallowed into. This is only a frame trap assuming they don't react to the first 19 frames.

 

[YagamiLight]

*sigh* your stupid frame trap has 2 answers ok? If its at the point where it will hit 2 frames after its release it means MK can Dtilt you and the first dtilt will reach you. Do you honestly think it will hit on frame 2 out side of that range?

And for frame 29 then the MK has enough time to get into the strong tornado in which case you'll just get swallowed into. This is only a frame trap assuming they don't react to the first 19 frames.

Ike won't generally be at 2 frame away distance, he'll be at 3-4. Even then 6 (Reaction to let go) + 3 distance > 7 shield drop + 3 Dtilt. I'm fairly sure the hitboxes clash anyways, though I've never been in that situation with a Meta Knight.

The frame 29 hit means that Ike is fully spacing the Quick Draw, which shouldn't be happening anyways,

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Ike won't generally be at 2 frame away distance, he'll be at 3-4. Even then 6 (Reaction to let go) + 3 distance > 7 shield drop + 3 Dtilt. I'm fairly sure the hitboxes clash anyways, though I've never been in that situation with a Meta Knight.

The frame 29 hit means that Ike is fully spacing the Quick Draw, which shouldn't be happening anyways,

are you kidding me stop skipping the 19 frames it takes to get to the charge animation. your math is right but you need to add 19 frames to the first hit of QD. The MK can react during that time.

 

[YagamiLight]

are you kidding me stop skipping the 19 frames it takes to get to the charge animation. your math is right but you need to add 19 frames to the first hit of QD. The MK can react during that time.

Alright, let's do this step by step.

Ike SHs a Quick Draw, Meta Knight reacts and puts up a shield.

Meta Knight is at 8 + 2 + 3 (Shield Stay time) + 7 shield drop.

That makes 20 frames, no?

Ike has by now began to charge QD and is into the animation for the charge. For all purposes, let's say he is a bit far away this time, and he will hit 6 frames. In this case, QD will hit Mach Tornado and because it's not a strong variety as soon as it starts, will beat it out. I'm not an MK user, so I can't tell you everything about the move, but to summarize:

6 or less frames charge release away = Good, positive situation.

7 or more frames away = Potentially detrimental.


Note that this is all about MK anyways, one of the fastest characters in the game. Someone like Yoshi or Snake is at a much worse position (Yoshi can't jump OoS and QD doesn't activate Snake's grenades).

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

you do know MK doesn't have to react with a shield right? Your entire thing is based on if they do but they can easily just hit you out of those 19 frames instead of shielding for no reason.

 

[Alphicans]

This is where theorycraft comes into play, and it's dumb. Arturito is right though, MK can do other things than shield, so this whole trap thing is a total gamble.

 

[Ussi]

MK can easily OoS Nair or dair..

 

[Phantom7]

Ah, interesting. I didn't think QD was that good. Well, I have KO'd with it before by doing the same thing. You just have to time it right, I guess.

But other characters can easily land hits in those 19 frames, especially MK. Ftilt would hurt a lot.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

it's not there are so many things that can be done to stop this. For example snakes down smash will make you swing your sword anywhere in the stage while he is activating it and if you wait till after wards well you'll just blow up.

 

[Jinkwai]

Can you Jab to Cancel to Jab to QD?

 

[Rykoshet]

You could but why the hell would you?

 

[Kirk]

Sure you could. You can also Jab cancel to jab to run away to the other side of the stage and start charging QD. Or even Jab cancel --> run off the stage and die.

You can do A LOT of things from a jab cancel. Practicality however is another issue.

tl;dr - It's not practical...don't do it.

 

[Rykoshet]

Or even Jab cancel --> run off the stage and die.

Pretty sure I've done that one before.

 

[Kirk]

It's so viable I don't know why I didn't think of it before!

The way of the future people...

...way of the future.

 

[Ebby56]

Is QD a good idea to use on characters that are falling some distance away? I know they can airdodge and powershield, in their respective states, but couldn't that allow you to set up the "frame trap" ?

Example: at the right percentage, let's say, DK is hit with Ike's undiminished Ftilt on FD, standing near the left edge, hit to the right: like this:

------------------------------------------------------------ DK

Ike
_______________________________________________________________

If Ike can read that DK is falling straight down, he activates the charge for QD, and now has two options: Release early and try to combo off of it, or hold and charge to try and create the "Frame Trap".

This is all very situational, of course, but it outlines what I'm asking. Am I missing something?

 

[Alphicans]

That's probably the best way to use this trap, but you can't be too far away, because QD doesn't go an infinite distance (obviously), so being closer would work, but it might be close enough for DK to go behind you.

 

[Royta]

its more of a guessing game move, and I think Light mainly used MK as an example. Charging QD forces the opponent to make a move and you can react to it.
Just don't get predictable =)

 

[Ebby56]

QD has always struck me as a move with massive potential, simply because it makes Ike go fast.

Can you dash out of it? Would a pivot or dash grab be possible by dashing out of QD? How bad is the lag if you don't hit?

 

[Kalm]

Have you guys ever noticed just how awesome Quickdraw is against opponents that have been knocked down? Think Ganon's chainchoking, but with more fun and profit. You knock the guy back, they're a good bit away from you, you start charging QD knowing they're going to hit the ground. With well spaced distance and great timing, you can hit them no matter what they do, unless rolling away manages to put enough distance between you both. A full charged QD can KO the lighter half of the cast at right around or just under 100%. If you guys do already know this then chances are you aren't using it enough, I don't see this move being used like it this at all in any of the videos.

Opponent hits ground a few feet from you + you're good with Ike = free 14% damage/KO.

 

[Alphicans]

I would think either not teching, and then just getting up normally would stop this, or just teching (without going in any direction) and then jumping would deal with this. It takes time to charged QD, so I think there would be time to do this. It's a good idea though, I could see it working sometimes, but it is by no means free %.

 

[Kalm]

It is under perfect conditions, meaning the opponent got knocked down in perfect spacing. Just getting up will leave the opponent open for a very brief moment, just not as long as getting up while attacking. If they tech and don't hit the ground then that's no big deal, you can hold QD until they make a mistake, jump completely and allow you to safely dash under, or use a projectile and you take minor damage. The thing is that UNLESS they tech, which is never going to be done perfectly every time, they are in a very bad position.
YagamiLight's OP was completely true, charging and stalling Quickdraw is great for mindgames, I've held it on opponents forever, watching them frantically shield and spotdodge, before finally making a wrong move and getting hit, I've KO'd opponents like this too. If they're on the ground it makes it just that much sweeter, QD covers a lot of ground, and unless they instantly roll backwards, you've got a high chance of hitting them. Even if you don't hit them, they're going to shield not knowing if they're safe, which is the perfect chance for you to close the extra distance with a dash grab or whatnot.

 

[Kirk]

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5849004&postcount=790

^^ Yep.

...

Oh shi- *door breaks down*

YES!

 

[Kalm]

Exactly, and this makes a huge difference with competitive play. If the move isn't stale and you hit people at 100% or higher, unless they are crazy heavy it KILLS THEM. This isn't just a useful AT, it's a deadly AT! So deadly you should freaking set it up!
Best thing is that it kills vertically, which screws over all those high tier light characters with great recovery. MK, GW, Falco, Diddy, Pika, Kirby, even Marth.
Quickdraw is stupid awesome, chances are every single Ike player there is right now isn't using it as much/as well as we should.

 

[Kirk]

Since when is charging QD an advanced technique?

No, QD is NOT stupid awesome. It is a highly situational attack at best...which was part of the point I was making in my last reference.

How often does the situation you describe happen in an actual match? Almost never? Given that one can cancel hitstun with an airdodge rather quickly makes this particular situation a very rare occurence. Let alone when you're opponent is over 100%, they'll be flying too far by then. So yeah...SITUATIONAL. That's it.

If you really want a 'set-up,' go Fthrow or Bthrow someone and hope they do nothing and hit the ground. That's the best chance you're ever going to get.

...But feel free to use QD to your heart's content. I wish you all the best.

 

[Kalm]

Jab generally hits people to the ground at low %, Dash attack does it up till around mid %. Charging it obviously isn't an AT lol. Tech chasing with it is the closest thing to an AT and is what I'm talking about. About the only thing past 100% is tripping and Dairing them into the stage, and maybe throws. Up until then you're right, tech chasing is rare, and you'll have to rely on tricking them by stalling it if you want to attempt a KO that way.
The thing about it is that stalling QD against someone without a projectile is a very low risk form of attack, and therefore a very low risk way to KO, at least in comparison to Ike's other KO moves. Jab and Fair are likely to almost aways be stale, and people are always looking out for Bair and grounded finishers, so QD is a lot of what's needed to keep the match fresh and mixed up.
Best chances are you get to use tech chasing once every other stock at low %, and stall QD either once every stock or every other stock at high %, those should give around the best results. Then of course there's just using it to recover and for regular approaches.

 

[Kirk]

Jab generally hits people to the ground at low %

...what? What form of wizardry is this?

Tech chasing with it is the closest thing to an AT and is what I'm talking about.

...What!? Tech chasing isn't really 'advanced' either...call it what you will.

About the only thing past 100% is tripping and Dairing them into the stage

...WHAT!?!?! If you're grasping to find options...usually 'relying on luck' and 'using a laggy *** attack' aren't what you want to be looking for(if you don't understand this, it's called frame advantage...i.e. Ike has NONE). But seriously, if you can pull this off, I'd love to see this wizardry in action.

Up until then you're right, tech chasing is rare, and you'll have to rely on tricking them by stalling it if you want to attempt a KO that way.

Which begs the question: why would you WANT to attempt a KO that way?

Jab and Fair are likely to almost aways be stale, and people are always looking out for Bair and grounded finishers, so QD is a lot of what's needed to keep the match fresh and mixed up.

So they are always looking for when Ike trys to kill them...

OF COURSE! *takes notes*

I also love the logic of..."since they will be looking out for Ike's decent finishers, I have to resort to this slower, more predictable, and weaker attack by comparison." *takes more notes*

Best chances are you get to use tech chasing once every other stock at low %, and stall QD either once every stock or every other stock at high %, those should give around the best results. Then of course there's just using it to recover and for regular approaches.

OOOHHHH! So it's...

Situational.

YES!

Spoiler

WOW I feel like such an *** lol

 

[Kalm]

Yes, you are an *** + lol.

Jab causing them to hit the ground happens, but it's rare and mainly just on heavies/fast fallers. I know it's not common, but compared to the rest of Ike's attacks that cause people to hit the ground, Jab really is just about second best.

Tech chasing with it is the "closest" thing to an AT and is what I'm talking about.

I mentioned tripping and Dair to make the point that it really would never happen at high %, not that I curse people into tripping and somehow Dair them down and L cancel it to tech chase them with quickdraw, yeesh.
BTW in order to avoid the possibility of being bashed, L cancel was sarcasm. Don't want people to misconceive my writing and /gasp talk down on it.

Why wouldn't you want to KO them that way? Because it's safe and it works, maybe only once or twice in an entire match, but it works. Apparently your idea of situational is different than mine, because they idea of a strategy that I can use at least once in every match and has the potential to KO the opponent is awesome, and far too much of a difference maker for me to just call it situational. Unless we're just calling every thing situational, because Falco's lasers are situational if you consider the fact they can't hit the opponent if you're under the stage or perhaps facing the other way, heaven forbid.
More sarcasm.

If the opponent is lasting a long time and playing very defensively against your Bair and Ftilt, which are Ike's safest finishers aside from Jab and Fair, which are usually stale from having to be used so much, QD stalling has a decent chance of being just the trick for catching them off guard, and if you go under them, big deal back to fighting, if you whiff in front of them, obviously you'd need to work on the tactic more.

Do a ****ing barrel roll.

 

[Kirk]

I am the biggest *** on these forums. Ask anyone around here.

-I honestly would love to see Jab hit them into the ground. Mainly because it has set knockback...unless you speak of the 3rd Jab hit, then that is just as useful as...well it's not because they get knocked back too far anyway.

-THERE'S NO L CANCELING IN BRAWL! Seriously, I only brought it up because it's not practical. That, and it just plain doesn't work. Simple as that.

-Mainly because you're limiting yourself much more than your opponent is. Stalling is all fine and good, but you can't rely on them screwing up for a kill that way. Every attack in the game is situational. QD is just even MORE situational. Enough in fact to make it worth mentioning and to make sure everyone else around here knows it.

-Yeah, big deal if they jump over me everytime, I'll just let them continue camping me...or wait for them to shoot me or w/e. Point is you can't rely on this strategy...it only goes so far. But w/e everyone has their own opinion. Go ahead and abuse Ike's awesome special attacks.

-I wish I had an Arwing...

 

[Kalm]

I know there's no L canceling you **** fool scrub, that's why you wavedash > Eruption.

I didn't think Jab would knock them back too far to be able to tech chase them with QD, maybe I was a bit too high in mighty over tech chasing, I just did it to a really good Sonic yesterday and it felt so good I had to rant I suppose.

Stalling is pretty much straight up useless against most projectile users, you have to have stupid reaction, timing, and prediction to make it work well then. But against the other half of the cast I just don't see it as being bad. Any opponent, upon seeing you enter QD, is going to shield, it takes nearly as long for them to understand that you're stalling as it does for the attack to reach full charge. If it gets this far and they're at the right %, you may as well be a jet plane Fsmash. Anyone who realizes this will have a hard time keeping their cool, because Ike moves like a bullet of hurt when you let go of B.
And if they don't realize this? That's fine, when they do something stupid they'll know when they're flying into the background. Nobody ever sees a full charged QD and anyone who hasn't dealt with the stall before will almost certainly screw up, I freakin get great players with it 3 or more times in one match when we first start out simply because they've never seen it and aren't prepared.

Basically, we're not really arguing on how to use it or anything, I just think it's a better attack than some others. So far all the tactic has done is either make me look cool zooming across the stage, or kill the opponent for me. I like dem odds.
I like cheese and crackers too.

 

[Rogue]

There's more holes in Kalm's argument than the pirate ship after the cannons are done with it.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

lmfao! kalm wins this thread simply because he has brought kirk over to the dark side of the Ike boards. Soon more and more people will start making fun of noobs and making them feel stupid. Get ready CK.

 

[Alphicans]

Kalm you keep changing your position on things, and not considering what you said in your other posts. Kirk is slowly changing what you're saying, and that means he's winning this argument. Stop before you make yourself look even stupider >.>

 

[Kalm]

Kirk was winning the argument, I retracted a lot of what I said on purpose because I was agreeing with him, in the end the only thing that I didn't completely agree with him on was how useful QD was as a KO move.
Sorry for the mistake, I forgot I was a stupid noob. Thanks for reminding me why 580 of my posts aren't in these boards, waste of my time.
I'll go back to mastering Ike on my own and stick to posting in the boards that don't auto-flame you for being wrong but not wanting to just give in right off the bat. Have a nice day.

 

[LuLLo]

I agree with Quick Draw being a usefull move, but I can also see why people don't agree with it.
First of all, this thread was not just about QD vs MK, MK was just used as an example.
Second, it DOES put you in an advantagious (is that a word?) position, the point is that people who can't read their opponent correctly fail to see that. For me, QD almost always works out in every situation the OP has stated, but it happens 1/20 that I fail to read my opponent correctly and get punished...and I'd say that's a pretty good chance for a move.
But there lies the question of how usefull it is, I think it is the experiences people have had with the move.
In my experiences. I've hit with it many times or have put myself in a good position.
But many people have had troubles with it, the troubles being hitting shields or the opponent didn't allow mindgames and punished you, but it's all about reaction time and reading.
As far as framedata goes, it speaks for itself, nothing wrong with it and it backs up the fact that QD is usefull very well.