Quick Draw is a misunderstood frame trap.

[YagamiLight]

The general attitude here towards Quick Draw is utterly deplorable. It's a bad recovery move for sure, but as a mobility move and as a frame trap it has helpful uses.

First off, what is a frame trap? A frame trap is a move that, no matter what the opponent does, your character will come out in an advantageous position if you do everything right. For example, Meta Knight's frame 3 Dtilt is such a trap, since if it hits a shield your opponent really has no practical options to deal with it, barring a dragon punch.

Might as well define dragon punch now too. A dragon punch is a move that has invincibility frames before the moment of the attack, or in some cases at the moment of the attack itself. Marth's Dolphin Slash. for example, is a dragon punch, since it has invincibility for the first 1-4 frames and then proceeds to hit on the 5th frame. So, if Meta Knight's Down Tilt hits Marth's shield, Marth can use Dolphin Slash to escape to safety. Other characters are not quite so lucky.

So how exactly is Quick Draw a frame trap? It certainly doesn't hit 1/20th of a second after you use it! The earliest an attack from Quick Draw should be coming out is on frame 19, plenty of time for the opponent to react, shield and then punish your whole second of whiff time. However, there is a catch to the whole deal: Quick Draw has a charge release time of 2 to 12 frames. That means that your attack will be hitting them at a supernumerary speed, basically better than expected. Such a fast release time basically means that, essentially, you will always come out on top if they attempt to shield your Quick Draw, and in most cases even if they don't shield, as they won't be able to reach you in time.

For the purposes of this example, I am going to define the time to react and press a button to be 8 frames, and the time to react let go of a button as 6, which I believe is top player (i.e. metagame) caliber. If this is false, say so. On a final note, Quick Draw does anywhere from 9 to 16 damage, with varying amounts of knockback. A fully charged Quick Draw should kill a midweight at around 100%.

With all that said, let me illustrate an example for you guys, so you get a better feel for the subject.

Ike is fighting a Meta Knight and the situation appears that Ike is using Quick Draw at a sizable distance from Meta Knight. We shall assume that Ike is not right in from of Meta Knight, but instead is only 4 frames away from a hit from a charge release. Meta Knight shields, so the following situation occurs:



If Meta Knight continues to hold the shield:
Ike then proceeds to hold Quick Draw, forcing Meta Knight to deplete his own shield and if the shield breaks, Ike Quick Draws under Meta Knight and uses a fully charged Forward Smash.

If Meta Knight proceeds to endlessly spotdodge:
If Meta Knight buffers correctly, this should not deplete his shield and will give him circa 80% invincibility. If the Ike learns when the invincibility is and when it is not there, Ike scores a hit.

If Meta Knight attempts to roll away:
If Meta Knight rolls toward Ike, Ike simply releases as soon as the roll frames seem to be ending, and due to Meta Knight's close proximity lands the hit. If Meta Knight rolls away, Ike hits him by either catching up to him and jabbing, or just hitting with the charged Quick Draw.

If Meta Knight jumps out of his shield:
Ike reacts to the jump and releases, going under Meta Knight. This ends with Meta Knight in the air, facing AWAY from Ike (On the ground) and Ike Fair distance away.

If Meta Knight uses his Dragon Punch, in this case Shuttle Loop:
This gives Meta Knight invincibility and time to flee the scene. Unfortunately, he is now extremely vulnerable to Ike's subsequent attacks, considering that Shuttle Loop placed him into glide mode.

If Meta Knight drops the shield and attempts an attack:
No attack he has can reach Ike in time, so there is nothing that benefits him here.

I'm sure you guys can clearly see what this entails: Every situation ends with Ike having either a concrete damage advantage or at worst a positional advantage.. If you want, you can submit lists of characters and I'll add them up here.

If you have any Quick Draw bias and hate left in you, post it and I'll see what I can do.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Interesting, and true, but for one thing. Projectiles. Anybody with projectiles can easily **** this frame trap of yours.

 

[Kitamerby]

Couldn't MK Dtilt over and over again, slowly approaching while at the same time being under/outranging the Quick Draw hitbox? Or am I visualizing the hitbox improperly? Otherwise, I'm sure he could jump up over the QD upon release and Dair, I'd imagine, or perhaps just Nado? Also, I'd imagine that in an Ike vs. Meta Knight scenario, the Ike generally has more % on him than the Meta Knight, which means that if the MK is far away from you, enough for you to charge up a QD, he's probably being somewhat defensive, and this little "stall" game seems to be just running the clock in his favor?

Thenagain, I don't actually play Ike competitively, nor have I had time to test this myself, but even if all but the last is true, it sure seems like a bad idea if the lattermost is involved. >>


And there's the possibility that MK just releases his shield, walks away a little bit into right after QD range and spotdodges, allowing him a free sweetspotted dsmash after QD finishes behind him, because if I recall correctly, the stronger hitbox is in the back?

 

[:034:]

Or Meta Knight jumps up a couple times and attempts to dair you. >_>

 

[Kitamerby]

Or Meta Knight jumps up a couple times and attempts to dair you. >_>

If MK jumps early, you could just wait until he runs out of jumps if he's trying to Dair in place and hit him as he lands, or QD under him if he's trying to get closer to you. If he's going away into the end of QD's range to prepare for your eventual release though, chances are you'll be screwed.

 

[YagamiLight]

Interesting, and true, but for one thing. Projectiles. Anybody with projectiles can easily **** this frame trap of yours.

This is actually a pretty bad rumor that was mentioned a few other times during Quick Draw discussions.

Dropping the shield is 7 frames and no projectile comes out earlier than frame 11 (Sheik's needles), except for Snake's Grenades, IIRC. Snake's grenades also don't go off if you hit him with Quick Draw. To my knowledge, the only OoS projectile is PKThunder, which hits on frame 20.

Couldn't MK Dtilt over and over again, slowly approaching while at the same time being under/outranging the Quick Draw hitbox? Or am I visualizing the hitbox improperly? Otherwise, I'm sure he could jump up over the QD upon release and Dair, I'd imagine, or perhaps just Nado? Also, I'd imagine that in an Ike vs. Meta Knight scenario, the Ike generally has more % on him than the Meta Knight, which means that if the MK is far away from you, enough for you to charge up a QD, he's probably being somewhat defensive, and this little "stall" game seems to be just running the clock in his favor?

Thenagain, I don't actually play Ike competitively, nor have I had time to test this myself, but even if all but the last is true, it sure seems like a bad idea if the lattermost is involved. >>


And there's the possibility that MK just releases his shield, walks away a little bit into right after QD range and spotdodges, allowing him a free sweetspotted dsmash after QD finishes behind him, because if I recall correctly, the stronger hitbox is in the back?

Look at it this way, Dtilt hits on frame 3-4 and has 5-15 cooldown. That's plenty of time for Ike to release and hit.

Nado comes out on frame 12 and I believe the early hitboxes of Tornado are outprioritized by Quick Draw.

Meta Knight's Dair comes out on frame 4 and he needs to do two jumps to not be hit by Quick Draw. This means that he at least needs 11 frames so Ike wins out with good timing.

This "stall game" is meant to end up with the opponent having 9-16%, it's not essentially meant to stall (Though it can).

Or Meta Knight jumps up a couple times and attempts to dair you. >_>

That takes too many frames, as detailed above and is a compromising position considering that Dair lasts until frame 25. Not to mention Ike can just wait until after the attack and zoom past Meta Knight.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Ah, but a character with projectiles can jump backwards OoS and then fire said projectiles at Ike, resulting in Ike either getting hit, or a reset with the enemy closer to the edge, at which they may simple ledgejump and fire. Think Falco.

 

[Kitamerby]

This is actually a pretty bad rumor that was mentioned a few other times during Quick Draw discussions.

Dropping the shield is 7 frames and no projectile comes out earlier than frame 11 (Sheik's needles), except for Snake's Grenades, IIRC. Snake's grenades also don't go off if you hit him with Quick Draw. To my knowledge, the only OoS projectile is PKThunder, which hits on frame 20.

Aura SPHEEEEEEEEEERE.

Are you sure Ike has enough time to react to a shield drop before he can release his attack before a character like Lucario has time to release his Aura Sphere?

Look at it this way, Dtilt hits on frame 3-4 and has 5-15 cooldown. That's plenty of time for Ike to release and hit.

Nado comes out on frame 12 and I believe the early hitboxes of Tornado are outprioritized by Quick Draw.

Meta Knight's Dair comes out on frame 4 and he needs to do two jumps to not be hit by Quick Draw. This means that he at least needs 11 frames so Ike wins out with good timing.

This "stall game" is meant to end up with the opponent having 9-16%, it's not essentially meant to stall (Though it can).

I see. But I still would imagine that simply walking away and shielding would probably make this a bit useless? How many frames does it take for Ike to reach his destination? Is it too fast to reshield?

 

[YagamiLight]

Ah, but a character with projectiles can jump backwards OoS and then fire said projectiles at Ike, resulting in Ike either getting hit, or a reset with the enemy closer to the edge, at which they may simple ledgejump and fire. Think Falco.

The jump backwards and projectile fire, for Falco, is 6+14 frames. Ike should be letting go of Quick Draw around 6 frames in, so no, this ends up being in favor of Ike still.

Aura SPHEEEEEEEEEERE.

Are you sure Ike has enough time to react to a shield drop before he can release his attack before a character like Lucario has time to release his Aura Sphere?




I see. But I still would imagine that simply walking away and shielding would probably make this a bit useless? How many frames does it take for Ike to reach his destination? Is it too fast to reshield?

Lucario's Aura Sphere come out on frame 19. 7+19 is more than enough time.

It takes 2 to 12 frames to reach a destination. Unshielding is 7 frames, walking is 1+the time it takes to walk that distance, reshielding is 2. If the Ike has good reaction times, he should pull through.

 

[•Col•]

MK: Shorthop(Or fullhop, I can't remember..)--> QD will still initiate the attack part, but will whiff--> fair

Quickdraw pretty much sucks, dude. :/ I usually only use it for an attack if they miss a tech.

 

[xiferp]

Vids might be more convincing.

 

[YagamiLight]

MK: Shorthop(Or fullhop, I can't remember..)--> QD will still initiate the attack part, but will whiff--> fair

Quickdraw pretty much sucks, dude. :/ I usually only use it for an attack if they miss a tech.

It takes time for MK to initiate that fullhop and to travel to that height, Ike can make it out in time. If MK jumps to airdodges, Ike just punishes the Quick Draw.

Don't be a pessimist!

Vids might be more convincing.

I really don't see how a video could possibly make this any more convincing. It's pretty properly laid out with math.

 

[•Col•]

Uh, no, I didn't mean airdodge. If you're at a certain height, the attack part of QD will still initiate and whiff completely.... o-o

If MK's jumps don't go the right height, then..... Drop shield-->perfect shield-->dsmash


And I'm not being pessimistic. I didn't say Quickdraw was totally useless... Just.... There are almost always better options.... xD

 

[Atria]

This is EXACTLY what I use Quick Draw for! I can fool SOOO many people into getting hit by this move because of how underated they think the move Quick Draw is! Although then again, I can just use it to escape if my opponent tries to jump over it and attack me which is easy to avoid and see coming too. In other words, I barely get hit when I decide to use this move. I also use this move as a spacing tool if I need more space against my opponent.

From what I've read from people's opinions so far, I think people still doubt its use against projectile users. However, I'm no exception to this seemingly as though I have a poor understanding about frame data in general. Also, what would happen if this following process occurred:

Meta Knight approached you (While you're charging QD of course.) and MK air dodges as he was approaching you. This will probably cause the Ike player to resume charging QD and release as soon as MK loses his invincibility frames. But what if all of a sudden, MK puts his shield. Would you still be to hit MK out somehow or would you be doomed to get hit by his ^B OoS or getting mauled by 1 D-tilt after another? I'm curious about this one...

BTW, was 'Dragon Punch' just a recently thought of name? This is the first time I've heard about it... (I know what it means BTW.)

 

[YagamiLight]

Uh, no, I didn't mean airdodge. If you're at a certain height, the attack part of QD will still initiate and whiff completely.... o-o

If MK's jumps don't go the right height, then..... Drop shield-->perfect shield-->dsmash


And I'm not being pessimistic. I didn't say Quickdraw was totally useless... Just.... There are almost always better options.... xD

I am aware that there is a very specific height at which QD activiates and misses. Meta Knight can't stay at that height forever, can he? (I'm not even sure if that height exists for Meta Knight, but I'll take your word for it).

Drop Shield = 7 frames, bring shield back up = 2 frames.

Assuming the Ike is not a god at reaction time, that should work since he won't be able to punish (assuming 6 frames of reaction time) it every single time unless he's very close to Meta Knight.

However, there is a small issue. Ike can just wait for Meta Knight to drop the shield and bring it up again. Meta Knight's shield is being depleted anyways. If MK drops the shield and does nothing, Ike then releases. MK's reaction time will be too long to react to it.

I'm obviously not saying "Go out and use Quick Draw every second of the game!". This is just illustating a simple fact: Quick Draw will result in an advantageous position for Ike at all times. It's a fairly good thing to use against shields too. It's not safe on block not does it break shields, it just "mindgames" them.

With great reaction time, this is a fantastic maneuver. May I ask you to agree with me?

EDIT:

This is EXACTLY what I use Quick Draw for! I can fool SOOO many people into getting hit by this move because of how underated they think the move Quick Draw is! Although then again, I can just use it to escape if my opponent tries to jump over it and attack me which is easy to avoid and see coming too. In other words, I barely get hit when I decide to use this move. I also use this move as a spacing tool if I need more space against my opponent.

From what I've read from people's opinions so far, I think people still doubt its use against projectile users. However, I'm no exception to this seemingly as though I have a poor understanding about frame data in general. Also, what would happen if this following process occurred:

Meta Knight approached you (While you're charging QD of course.) and MK air dodges as he was approaching you. This will probably cause the Ike player to resume charging QD and release as soon as MK loses his invincibility frames. But what if all of a sudden, MK puts his shield. Would you still be to hit MK out somehow or would you be doomed to get hit by his ^B OoS or getting mauled by 1 D-tilt after another? I'm curious about this one...

BTW, was 'Dragon Punch' just a recently thought of name? This is the first time I've heard about it... (I know what it means BTW.)

Glad that you see eye to eye with me.

Now, let me get this straight:

MK jumps at you and uses an airdodge, but then lands on the ground and puts up a shield? In this scenario, Meta Knight has a few frames of vulnerability time. If you're good, you still hit him.

You shouldn't be in that position often though, it makes little sense to use QD on a MK who is in the middle of the air and can then put massive hurt on you.

And yeah, Dragon Punch is a standard fighting game term, but it is used rarely.

 

[BurningCrusader777]

There is a problem with this though.

Your opponent can just stay on a ledge while you're sitting there with QD. To make matters worse, if you're too close to the ledge, QD's hitbox does trigger, leaving you open for over half a second.

The situation is different when your opponent is on the ground; this is when it turns into more of an okizeme thing, but it's still a frame trap to some extent. As long as you react properly, a QD versus a grounded opponent is practically guaranteed, else it leads into a QD jab instead of the actual QD hit.

 

[YagamiLight]

There is a problem with this though.

Your opponent can just stay on a ledge while you're sitting there with QD. To make matters worse, if you're too close to the ledge, QD's hitbox does trigger, leaving you open for over half a second.

The situation is different when your opponent is on the ground; this is when it turns into more of an okizeme thing, but it's still a frame trap to some extent. As long as you react properly, a QD versus a grounded opponent is practically guaranteed, else it leads into a QD jab instead of the actual QD hit.

Yeah, this is a substandard idea to use if the opponent is on the edge. IF they are there, casually walk over to them and use Eruption.

Grounded is the main idea of the move, as you say. If you and the opponent are a sizable distance apart, they don't even have to be shielding for you to take advantage of them, they have to get out of the way.

If they are shielding, however, everything they do is a positional advantage for Ike.

 

[Rykoshet]

A frame trap that doesn't afford a useful follow up is pretty useless. The reason why frame traps like silent lasers, mk and marth's dtilt, and what not are useful is because there is a practical use to punish somone for reacting to it. Escaping isn't a positional advantage, since a character's back being to you doesn't mean they can't act.

 

[YagamiLight]

A frame trap that doesn't afford a useful follow up is pretty useless. The reason why frame traps like silent lasers, mk and marth's dtilt, and what not are useful is because there is a practical use to punish somone for reacting to it. Escaping isn't a positional advantage, since a character's back being to you doesn't mean they can't act.

Completely agree with you, but there is a slight difference here. They have their back to you AND are in the air. I'm not 100% sure on all the details with frame data and whatnot, but I am fairly certain that you'll be able to reach them before the end up on the ground, depending on the distance and charge. Worst case scenario is that you see them aiming for the ground and throw out a dash attack.

 

[doom dragon 105]

A hit from QD is horrible, can do anything after, I would rather hit with a Nair to jab cancel combo then land a QD hit, it just is laggy and if you hit, can't really follow up with it

 

[YagamiLight]

A hit from QD is horrible, can do anything after, I would rather hit with a Nair to jab cancel combo then land a QD hit, it just is laggy and if you hit, can't really follow up with it

You seem to be missing the point.

No, you can't combo into or out of Quick Draw. There's just too much lag. However, if you get a free hit on them, how can that possibly be "horrible"?

 

[error13]

QD is a frame trap against Ike the MK does not have to press shield he just has to wait for you to let go and can still react in time I've done and it is pathetic.

this is burrito btw.

 

[YagamiLight]

QD is a frame trap against Ike the MK does not have to press shield he just has to wait for you to let go and can still react in time I've done and it is pathetic.

this is burrito btw.

The math doesn't add up, Burrito.

Let's say you have a non-shielding Meta Knight standing off against an Ike, the Ike is charging up Quick Draw.

They are at the distance I stated, 4 frames until the hit of QD away.

If Ike releases, Meta Knight needs 9 frames to bring up the shield (8 for the tourney caliber response time and an additional frame for the shield).

 

[doom dragon 105]

You seem to be missing the point.

No, you can't combo into or out of Quick Draw. There's just too much lag. However, if you get a free hit on them, how can that possibly be "horrible"?

All that work for a free hit and there is a chance of being punished -_-

A free hit is nice, but

Why not a nicely spaced fair or something easier to hit with and just as effective ^_^

I see what your doing, finding a use for QD but I just don't see it happening until someone finds this ground breaking AT

 

[MarKO X]

Answer: mixup, destaleing, whatever.

I actually think Yagami has an interesting point. QD can be proven to be a difficult to punish move when used correctly. The funny thing is that Ikes will do this maybe once every two or three stocks, not realizing what it can do or because they do have the better option available for them.

But there's nothing wrong with having options.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

you know what forget all that stupid math MK can just tornado the **** out of QD.

edit: tornado will hit you before you land with QD.

 

[Atria]

Glad that you see eye to eye with me.

Now, let me get this straight:

MK jumps at you and uses an airdodge, but then lands on the ground and puts up a shield? In this scenario, Meta Knight has a few frames of vulnerability time. If you're good, you still hit him.

You shouldn't be in that position often though, it makes little sense to use QD on a MK who is in the middle of the air and can then put massive hurt on you.

And yeah, Dragon Punch is a standard fighting game term, but it is used rarely.

Oh, I'm just saying what IF Meta Knight decides to approach you ONCE he sees you begin the process of charging Quick Draw? BTW, MK (In MY situation.) was grounded BEFORE he saw Ike charge up QD. THEN he decides to approach Ike with a short hopped air dodge THEN immediately put up a shield once he lands. Also, when he lands, he will be fairly close to Ike. I'm going to assume that the outcome for this is that Ike can still hit MK out of this, but you would have to have REALLY good timing in order to do so because the frames where MK is vulnerable, will only be present for a very short amount of time.

Yeah I honestly don't think that Quick Draw is as bad a move as everyone makes it out to be. I've rarely if not, EVER as of now, have been attacked out of the move when I have decided to use it. When I do use it, most of the time I score a worth while hit on the opponent. When I was against an opponent on Wi-Fi, (Nobody tell me that it sucks, I'm already aware about it... >_>) I decided to use Quick Draw. The opponent thought that as soon as I pulled it out, they could avoid by abusing the invincibility frames on the ledge by letting go of the edge and grabbing it again using their 2nd jump, thinking that they'll be able to outlast me. However due to my good timing on this part, I hit them with QD at the apex of their jump which slightly went over the ledge. This got me a KO which felt good! So I don't think you people should underestimate this move. There's a reason why QD is catergorized as a SPECIAL move so why not use it just a LITTLE more often? It works well for me! Although, I'm still yet to use it successfully against projectile users by taking advantage of the frames these moves/projectiles come out on...

 

[YagamiLight]

you know what forget all that stupid math MK can just tornado the **** out of QD.

edit: tornado will hit you before you land with QD.

Well, let's just count it up. There are a few scenarios in which Meta Knight can use Tornado.

1) Ike is charging Quick Draw, Meta Knight drops the shield and (assuming Ike doesn't release) begins to Mach Tornado. The tornado comes out on frame 12. Assuming a 4 frame distance apart, the time for Ike to react and release the button is about 2 frames short of MK being encased in tornado. And Quick Draw beats out low level (starting and ending) tornadoes, it's just the high priority version that it doesn't beat. Not to mention, if Ike hits MK in the early frames of Tornado, it's really easy to SDI out of, meaning that Ike is getting a hit in anyways.

2) MK can also jump then Tornado, but the reaction is the same as above.

Oh, I'm just saying what IF Meta Knight decides to approach you ONCE he sees you begin the process of charging Quick Draw? BTW, MK (In MY situation.) was grounded BEFORE he saw Ike charge up QD. THEN he decides to approach Ike with a short hopped air dodge THEN immediately put up a shield once he lands. Also, when he lands, he will be fairly close to Ike. I'm going to assume that the outcome for this is that Ike can still hit MK out of this, but you would have to have REALLY good timing in order to do so because the frames where MK is vulnerable, will only be present for a very short amount of time.

Yeah I honestly don't think that Quick Draw is as bad a move as everyone makes it out to be. I've rarely if not, EVER as of now, have been attacked out of the move when I have decided to use it. When I do use it, most of the time I score a worth while hit on the opponent. When I was against an opponent on Wi-Fi, (Nobody tell me that it sucks, I'm already aware about it... >_>) I decided to use Quick Draw. The opponent thought that as soon as I pulled it out, they could avoid by abusing the invincibility frames on the ledge by letting go of the edge and grabbing it again using their 2nd jump, thinking that they'll be able to outlast me. However due to my good timing on this part, I hit them with QD at the apex of their jump which slightly went over the ledge. This got me a KO which felt good! So I don't think you people should underestimate this move. There's a reason why QD is catergorized as a SPECIAL move so why not use it just a LITTLE more often? It works well for me! Although, I'm still yet to use it successfully against projectile users by taking advantage of the frames these moves/projectiles come out on...

Well yeah, in your scenario the Ike needs really good timing in order to beat Meta Knight who reacts to the opening frames of Quick Draw. He doesn't need AS good timing for a Meta Knight who shields against a predicted QD.

Yeah, QD is underrated, it's better to use every move in your arsenal, or at least that's what I think. As for projectile users, it's a bit tricky, but just practice and you'll get it.

The key is to not release early in "prediction" but also not to hesitate and release late. Most of these scenarios depend on

a) You knowing QD distance to frame time ratios

b) You having tourney caliber reaction times (You can improve this, don't worry)

c) You can identify the opponent's moves and think fast.

It's not easy, of course.

 

[Atria]

you know what forget all that stupid math MK can just tornado the **** out of QD.

edit: tornado will hit you before you land with QD.

Arturito Burrito, I did a few tests regarding whether or not MK's Mach Tornado would completely stop Ike in his tracks or not. IMO, most of the time it CAN. But, Ike can hit MK out of it if his QD can hit his tornado slightly towards the top of it. Like if MK was rising with his tornado and Ike was on a platform, Ike can easily hit him out of it because the top of the tornado is at Ike's QD attack level. I also tested this on a stationary tornado, sometimes I got him out of it, at other times I got caught in it. Probably the best time to strike would be when MK moves toward the ground again after he initiated the attack as this will lower the tornado more. Also from what I got, I don't think that the amount times MK presses B to increase the priority would affect it much because it was pretty much the same overall for me. Need to mess with it more...

 

[Blistering Speed]

A frame by frame video of this against a MK, showing each option would be great. I understand what you mean, but kids these days are all about the visual helpers. In my day...

 

[Jinkwai]

Wow. And to think I just save the hit for a potential kill move.

 

[Atria]

I've just done some more tests. Ike CAN hit MK out of his approaching tornado with QD! However for this to occur, you need to be REALLY good with your timing for this to happen successfully. First, charge your QD. (ATM, I don't think it really matters how much it is charged up.) Next, wait for MK to use his tornado. This is where he'll approach you and try to hit you. Once MK touches the ground with his tornado, release your attack and you should hit him out of it because Ike's QD hit around the top/higher part of the tornado. (This is the tornado's weakspot where MK can be hit out of easily.) However, this situation would only work if MK isn't tapping B. Oh BTW, it doesn't matter how long MK had his tornado out for because you'll hit him out of it regardless. I'm still messing around with it though... I'll update if I find anything new.

 

[Palpi]

Perviously, the only time i used quick draw as an attack is if I get knocked away (still of stage) and I QD while in air if my opponent is approaching me. I will have to see this :D

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Well, let's just count it up. There are a few scenarios in which Meta Knight can use Tornado.

1) Ike is charging Quick Draw, Meta Knight drops the shield and (assuming Ike doesn't release) begins to Mach Tornado. The tornado comes out on frame 12. Assuming a 4 frame distance apart, the time for Ike to react and release the button is about 2 frames short of MK being encased in tornado. And Quick Draw beats out low level (starting and ending) tornadoes, it's just the high priority version that it doesn't beat. Not to mention, if Ike hits MK in the early frames of Tornado, it's really easy to SDI out of, meaning that Ike is getting a hit in anyways.

2) MK can also jump then Tornado, but the reaction is the same as above.

You know at that distance MK can just Dtilt you. But it doesn't really matter because the tornado will reach your hurt box before QD's reaches his.

Also when you are in the charging animation your opponent knows what to expect so reaction time actually decreases simply because they already know what to do next. They can also semi press the L button in order to shield faster. They could even react wit Dtilt like this.

Of course all this talk is assuming they forget that QD sucks and decide to let you just sit there and charge it. The initial hit of an uncharged QD comes out on frame 30. What is to stop them from reacting in those 28 frames before you reach the charge animation?

 

[doom dragon 105]

Doesn't a perfectly spaced fair knock the demon of hell out of the tornado?

 

[Atria]

Doesn't a perfectly spaced fair knock the demon of hell out of the tornado?

Yeah it does. But I was just checking whether if QD could knock him out of it too incase if that situation ever arose. Which BTW, does.

 

[doom dragon 105]

I mean yeah it's nice to have the other options, but it's kinda situational and a fair does the job just as well

Slowly but surely OD will be useful

 

[Alphicans]

Saying that quick draw ends up in ike's favor all the time is a little much. I can see this being a legit post if it was said ONLY on FD. Levels with platforms would demolish this, and depending if your opponent is ahead in percentage/stock, they don't really need to approach you, because time will just run out, resulting in a win for them, this means you have to release QD, and alas you are open for punishment.

I'll agree that QD can be used as a trap, I've been caught in it numerous of times, but there are ways around it, such as the way stated above, or by simply grabbing the ledge as ike charges up QD.

 

[Atria]

Saying that quick draw ends up in ike's favor all the time is a little much. I can see this being a legit post if it was said ONLY on FD. Levels with platforms would demolish this, and depending if your opponent is ahead in percentage/stock, they don't really need to approach you, because time will just run out, resulting in a win for them, this means you have to release QD, and alas you are open for punishment.

Oh as IF Ike would just stand there charging his QD all day! He's got better things to do!

IMO, I don't think ALL is lost if the opponent is on a platform. If Ike HAS to unleash it, it's not like Ike suffers any lag from it. You can pull out a different move near instantaneously if you don't hit with the move. At worse for missing with QD, you only gain space which CAN be helpful. Also, it's not like as if you should spam the move! This thread isn't convincing ANYONE to do that! This is not what this thread is for! It's just that people have a bad attitude towards this move and things are just being worked out to get around that so people can respect the fact that it's a fairly useful move. Just use the move once in a while like I do. IMO, I think it's hard for the opponent to punish Ike with his near lagless QD. (Not confident about whether if it's lagless or not when he misses. I'm yet to look at/find frame data for all this. ) But I can tell you it's not the end of the world for Ike if someone is on a platform.

I'll agree that QD can be used as a trap, I've been caught in it numerous of times, but there are ways around it, such as the way stated above, or by simply grabbing the ledge as ike charges up QD.

Then again, it's not like as if the opponent can hold on to the ledge forever. They'll fall eventually and that's where Ike can use it to prevent being punished for it. It shouldn't REALLY matter how good the opponent's timing is when it comes to regrabbing the ledge again. If they're careless, they'll get hit by QD when they try to grab the ledge again. Also, depending on the opponent's character, Ike can proceed to egdgegaurd or even KO them from returning to the stage. This WILL occur if they're not knowledgeable about how they should return to the stage safely without getting knocked away again in the process. I've just recently found out how important this is.

 

[YagamiLight]

You know at that distance MK can just Dtilt you. But it doesn't really matter because the tornado will reach your hurt box before QD's reaches his.

Also when you are in the charging animation your opponent knows what to expect so reaction time actually decreases simply because they already know what to do next. They can also semi press the L button in order to shield faster. They could even react wit Dtilt like this.

Of course all this talk is assuming they forget that QD sucks and decide to let you just sit there and charge it. The initial hit of an uncharged QD comes out on frame 30. What is to stop them from reacting in those 28 frames before you reach the charge animation?

1) Dropping the shield and Dtilting is 10 frames in total, if Ike reacts well to Dtilt, the attacks clash. Or Ike could just strike during the ten frame cooldown time of the tilt.

2) Atria covered QD v Mach Tornado, not that it matters since Ike will be hitting Meta Knight before the tornado comes out.

3) The reaction time already assumes that the finger is on the button, but waiting for the movement might improve your timing by a frame or so.

4) You seem to be making mistakes regarding your own character. The earliest Quick Draw comes out on frame 19, and it has 18 frames of charge time. This, assuming they react in 8 frames , shield (and hold it for the minimum 3 frames) and let go of the shield is already a few frames into the charging animation.

Saying that quick draw ends up in ike's favor all the time is a little much. I can see this being a legit post if it was said ONLY on FD. Levels with platforms would demolish this, and depending if your opponent is ahead in percentage/stock, they don't really need to approach you, because time will just run out, resulting in a win for them, this means you have to release QD, and alas you are open for punishment.

I'll agree that QD can be used as a trap, I've been caught in it numerous of times, but there are ways around it, such as the way stated above, or by simply grabbing the ledge as ike charges up QD.

Basically, Atria covered all of it.