Proposed Ruleset for Smash 4 Tournaments

[MopedOfJustice]

So, I basically have what I think is an optimum way to handle stages in smash 4 worked out based on the principle that we won't agree but that a unity ruleset is too important not to have. I've been editing the proposal for a while now and wasn't in a hurry to make the thread, but if it's suddenly topical again, I could lay it out tonight (in its own thread because this thread's OP is... not productive to a serious discussion). So, is now a good time for this conversation, or should we just wait until the game is closer?

I agree with TRG, more discussion is good.

 

[ThatGuyYouMightKnow]

Let's just summarize this thread with this:

I was excited for the Dr. Wily stage to be legal.
Then the Yellow Devil happened.
gg.

I am not playing a game competitively for money that involves random things spawning on top of me to kill me, where I'm trying to improve my skill. Because getting hit by RNG hazards does not show skill, and avoidance of them is not -always- possible. Like tripping.

Get rid of that, and I'll hop on easy. That is why these stages are going to be, inevitably, banned. Not because I want them to be, but because a very insanely large portion of the people who play this game competitively think the same way. (As they should, I say. Random elements that you can or cannot predict but CANNOT ALWAYS AVOID, not things like Randal [who is able to be predicted, mind you], do not show skill. I would not bet money on random **** that I cannot rely on. Random is not how tourney players win tournaments constantly.)

If the community, for what reason they have, decide to start playing with items, or playing on stages such as Wily's? I'll just stop playing. Simple as that. No harm, no foul for me. There is Melee and Project M to play.

 

[The Real Gamer]

Highly doubt we're anywhere close to seeing a large tournament scene that will support items.

Those that due support the usage of items are in a very small minority.

 

[LiteralGrill]

You don't have enough stage threads.

I promise I'll make more. Stages are only the beginning I promise

So, I basically have what I think is an optimum way to handle stages in smash 4 worked out based on the principle that we won't agree but that a unity ruleset is too important not to have. I've been editing the proposal for a while now and wasn't in a hurry to make the thread, but if it's suddenly topical again, I could lay it out tonight (in its own thread because this thread's OP is... not productive to a serious discussion). So, is now a good time for this conversation, or should we just wait until the game is closer?

DO IT!!!

Highly doubt we're anywhere close to seeing a large tournament scene that will support items.

Those that due support the usage of items are in a very small minority.

I am not playing a game competitively for money that involves random things spawning on top of me to kill me, where I'm trying to improve my skill. Because getting hit by RNG hazards does not show skill...

Random is not how tourney players win tournaments constantly...

A curious thought on things "random".

The largest complaint for items in smash is that no player with money on he line is going to risk losing a match to an item spawn, and that item spawns degenerate play by being random. This also works for some stages as well. To save reading for those not interested, I have a spoiler here that talks about this, read it if curious.

Spoiler

There are many games that have high-stakes with huge cash prizes that rely heavily on luck, the prime example being Poker, but the one I want to mention is Scrabble. Yes you read right, Scrabble.

In Scrabble, the Z is actually rather broken as it has many uses but is still worth 10 points. The largest complaint for items in smash is that no player with money on he line is going to risk losing a match to an item spawn. My question is, does a pro Scrabble player complain when in the finals his opponent gets a Z at just the right time even though he has lost out on a LOT more money than the Smash player has? No.

There is more to Scrabble then just coming up with words and finding a spot for them on the board. Those two skills are very important obviously, no player will become a successful pro without being able to deal with the over-arching element to the game: minimizing the effects of bad luck, and maximizing the effects of your good luck.

When thinking of item play, it's more important than thinking whether items are unfair or not, it's how interesting the game is made of minimizing the bad luck and maximizing the good luck. Yes, an item could give someone an advantage for no reason, but that doesn't mean they need to be banned. Part of the flow of the game should be how the opponent then survives that luck, keeps fighting, and hopes for the next bit of fortune to be theirs, and to utilize it when this happens.

Tldr; Many other high-stakes games rely on the flow of luck, and there is no reason we can't play for money and have the same features.

Or if you hate Scrabble, try to replace it with Pokemon, there are a lot of similarities.

This also can be applied to some (not all) stages, Halberd is a PERFECT example and was legal at Apex. If it's okay for Apex, shouldn't it be okay for others in terms of at least stages? Food for thought.

 

[ThatGuyYouMightKnow]

But there are methods of, not controlling, but -exploiting- the concept of "random" in those games; and you are also given plenty of grace period to work it in your favor. Smash can happen in less than a second. You cannot exploit an item spawning atop you (DURING combat, which is even worse) with enough speed to exploit it while still maintaining checks on the other dude. It's just not realistic.

I certainly would feel like I sucked at the game if the other guy had regen items spawn on top of him all game and all I got was barrels and **** that take ages to make use of; yet I had NO control over what the game gives me. If I got crap items or the stage decided I was its target, there is nothing I can do in the few seconds that I have (again, Smash is very fast, just as most fighters can be when you are trying to strategize AND fight) and the other dude walks away with my money. That is not fun nor skillful for me, competitively.

(That Z key is not always able to be used.)

We've tried competitive items play with every Smash, and Smash 4 is a Smash game. If items and hazard stages do not change? Then things will remain the same. There's gonna have to be some insane tech developed to make these things acceptable, or people are just gonna have to hold their salt deep in their chests when they lose to their own rule abolishment.

Now I am fine with luck. Luck is in -all- games. But not such an amount that the game RELIES on it, and becomes what causes players to win in every, or nearly every, match. Many of these stages with hazards on them are unavoidable hazards, and many items are just plain ridiculous, as they should be for items. But not in competitive play.

I want to lose to players, not stages, or items. Players.

 

[salaboB]

I certainly would feel like I sucked at the game if the other guy had regen items spawn on top of him all game and all I got was barrels and **** that take ages to make use of; yet I had NO control over what the game gives me. If I got crap items or the stage decided I was its target, there is nothing I can do in the few seconds that I have (again, Smash is very fast, just as most fighters can be when you are trying to strategize AND fight) and the other dude walks away with my money. That is not fun nor skillful for me, competitively.

This is very unlikely.

Would you feel like you sucked if your opposing G&W 9-hammered you every time he tried it? Because that's also very unlikely.

 

[LiteralGrill]

If I got crap items or the stage decided I was its target, there is nothing I can do in the few seconds that I have (again, Smash is very fast, just as most fighters can be when you are trying to strategize AND fight) and the other dude walks away with my money. That is not fun nor skillful for me, competitively.

Then things will remain the same. There's gonna have to be some insane tech developed to make these things acceptable, or people are just gonna have to hold their salt deep in their chests when they lose to their own rule abolishment.

Now I am fine with luck. Luck is in -all- games. But not such an amount that the game RELIES on it, and becomes what causes players to win in every, or nearly every, match. Many of these stages with hazards on them are unavoidable hazards, and many items are just plain ridiculous, as they should be for items. But not in competitive play.

I want to lose to players, not stages, or items. Players.

I feel for you here. I wish I had just edited that stuff to be more relevant to stages, but I do hope if anyone is thinking of items they'd look to something like ISP where they control and ban the items to make them a much better experience.

But a good question here is what constitutes as luck to you? How about Norfair's hazards? Port Town Aero Dive's cars? All 100% predictable actually. Yet hazards there were part of (and for some the entire) reason they were banned. Not luck, just because of the hazards you could plan and play around. (And Norfair with the Jigglypuff story I've told too many times... )

Something like Pirate Ship or Pictochat? I feel for you completely. A lot of people fought for those stages, even could show you can adapt to things on the ship, and mentioning the safe zone on Pictochat. But I can understand that kind of randomness removed, and hope if people are trying to push for stages they do so with the stages truly deserving, or the ones that add an incredible CP quality that helps the meta. And yes, I feel for you with Halberd too. I have some "different" stages legal when I'm playing, but I have it off due to that random unfair advantage. (At least when that happens with items the players are probably wanting them in the first place and thus deal.)

But as for some non random stages, I know they have been banned for other reasons that range from laziness to lack of understanding. That's not cool. As AA explained in another thread:

There are many interepretations of how this affected the overall metagame, but let me give you the most cynical one. Powerful but not really broken things would begin to happen on certain stages. Some regions ban those stages, others don't. The metagames in those regions begin to diverge a bit. A national happens, and for various political reasons, it uses a very narrow stage list. The more liberal regions are ill-prepared as they're familiar with a different metagame, and they do artificially worse than they would otherwise. They change their rules to something they enjoy a lot less to try to keep up, but they're still behind the times as the more conservative regions are playing in yet a new metagame with even fewer stages. This repeats basically indefinitely...

How do you conbat that?

 

[ThatGuyYouMightKnow]

This is very unlikely.

Would you feel like you sucked if your opposing G&W 9-hammered you every time he tried it? Because that's also very unlikely.

Then it's my fault for not being patient enough, or in some cases, fast enough, to not get hit by one of the slowest moves G&W has. When is this scenario (or getting hit with a 9 more than once consistently) ever going to happen?

Meanwhile, stages/items killing you out of luck happens -often enough-.

 

[ThatGuyYouMightKnow]

I feel for you here. I wish I had just edited that stuff to be more relevant to stages, but I do hope if anyone is thinking of items they'd look to something like ISP where they control and ban the items to make them a much better experience.

But a good question here is what constitutes as luck to you? How about Norfair's hazards? Port Town Aero Dive's cars? All 100% predictable actually. Yet hazards there were part of (and for some the entire) reason they were banned. Not luck, just because of the hazards you could plan and play around. (And Norfair with the Jigglypuff story I've told too many times... )

Something like Pirate Ship or Pictochat? I feel for you completely. A lot of people fought for those stages, even could show you can adapt to things on the ship, and mentioning the safe zone on Pictochat. But I can understand that kind of randomness removed, and hope if people are trying to push for stages they do so with the stages truly deserving, or the ones that add an incredible CP quality that helps the meta. And yes, I feel for you with Halberd too. I have some "different" stages legal when I'm playing, but I have it off due to that random unfair advantage. (At least when that happens with items the players are probably wanting them in the first place and thus deal.)

But as for some non random stages, I know they have been banned for other reasons that range from laziness to lack of understanding. That's not cool. As AA explained in another thread:



How do you conbat that?

Port Town I actually -like-, but the fact that one unfortunate fall into the cars (which is better exploited by certain chars that excel at positioning their opponent during hitstun) can lead to extreme damage, and in turn, death, can be pretty unfair. Now, this is a case where it definitely is not random at all, but is still a very sketchy element of the game that actually hurts the metagame. Why? People are going to start waiting for you to come at them and sit in place to have you walk over and chance getting mollywhopped into the cars (Pirate Ship is a big example of this as well as New Pork City, but New Pork is ass for a ton of reasons). Sure, you can run over and fake him out, attempt to knock him in or otherwise, you'll realize how risky that is and stop yourself, attempting to either do the same-sit in place and shoot things to force them to approach YOU-or, if you have no projectiles, projectiles worth using or tricky approaches, taking the bait and hoping things work out in your favor.

Then things just turn into Brawl again. Which I know some people would not mind, and it's not necessarily a bad thing to them, but I would. And I believe it's toxic for the game, the metagame, and the players. Sure, this kind of gameplay was in Melee, but it wasn't such a huge thing influenced by the stage you pick (which is debatable considering certain CPs in Melee, but we're talking hazards, here). You didn't see timing out or "laming out" as often as fast paced Melee rushdown because of how the game turned out to be. Over time, people get frustrated by this type of gameplay that people are forced into to win (if the metagame does not evolve past "pick stage with hazard and camp"), choose to ban the stages, and we become where we're at now. It seems inevitable. I honestly do wish more stages were viable, but I just can't accept hazards and stage gimmicks as crazy as some Brawl invented.

But I mean, maybe I'm just talking out of my ass. I'm not a hugely knowledgeable person on Smash, I just think stages with hazards and items will never be viable unless serious changes are made, which has not happened.

 

[salaboB]

Meanwhile, stages/items killing you out of luck happens -often enough-.

Item standard play results disagree with you.

Where's your evidence when using well designed item sets?

 

[LiteralGrill]

Port Town I actually -like-, but the fact that one unfortunate fall into the cars (which is better exploited by certain chars that excel at positioning their opponent during hitstun)

Stop right there: that sounds like a reason to counterpick the stage for characters with those strengths, isn't that the point of a counterpick stage?

People are going to start waiting for you to come at them and sit in place to have you walk over... Then things just turn into Brawl again.

Stop again: that sentence sounds a LOT like things that happen in certain parts of Pokemon Stadium, yet it isn't banned.

The hardest problem with stages are things like that, I do get that it can be quite subjective when it comes to stages, so your opinion is quite valid. To me, I don't have a problem with it, to you there is a problem. No one is really right in this case. However, if we were fighting to make a legal stage list, maybe I'd say "I'll sacrifice PTAD if you keep Frigate" and something could work out. If we could all do more of that, that would be awesome...

 

[nat pagle]

Stop right there: that sounds like a reason to counterpick the stage for characters with those strengths, isn't that the point of a counterpick stage?

No, it's banned because it would be an extreme counterpick. I.e. DK would be nigh useless on that stage because it has no ledge half the time and gimps recoveries heavily. There is a blurry line between ridiculous and okay, but generally people can eyeball it and say "alright, if a number of cast members are significantly screwed over recovery wise, it's not a good idea to allow that stage".

Stop again: that sentence sounds a LOT like things that happen in certain parts of Pokemon Stadium, yet it isn't banned.

The hardest problem with stages are things like that, I do get that it can be quite subjective when it comes to stages, so your opinion is quite valid. To me, I don't have a problem with it, to you there is a problem. No one is really right in this case. However, if we were fighting to make a legal stage list, maybe I'd say "I'll sacrifice PTAD if you keep Frigate" and something could work out. If we could all do more of that, that would be awesome...

Pokemon stadium is weird, I really think it's only still legal because of the fact it's been used for so long. But when coming into a new game trying to find what stages warrant a ban, I'd say PS would get the third strike.

Counterpicks are supposed to give a minor character advantage, but they aren't supposed to give an overwhelming disadvantage to a certain set of characters or flat out make the game much more difficult in the competitive sense. Having no ledges makes recovering extremely hard.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Thing is, you can't compare a board game to smash; it's a board game lol

The spontaneous elements with items and stages is that ominous prescense of unpredictability that could provide a ridiculous advantage to an undeserving player an vis versa.

This spontanaety with a Bomb, Misfire, Gordo or 9 may be unpredictable, but these attacks are visually evident and are a known danger when playing against the character, this allows a player to anticipate certain actions and approximate our distance and how we play; we understand the consequences of giving characters so much space that these occurrences can be a threat, but the differences is that it still can be forseen.

There are some instances in which anticipating something like a misfire doesn't work out, but that's typically under a hail merry situation or when a player will blindly throw caution to the win and gamble to secure victory, or perhaps this person just gets a hell of a read (Armada vs Mango double stitch face comes to mind).

Proactive measures against spontaneous actions like reading the opponents actions could also help dissolve the random elements with the fighters, though it may not be necessary, as with all of these elements there are still clear advantages and disadvantages with them , you sacrifice something to hopefully gain an edge, whether that be an edge guard opportunity, control of your character or placing yourself in an open position.

With an item like an exploding capsule there is know way to know if it is one , there is no way to predict the moment in which when and where it will arrive. Same with things like the Claw on Halberd or the hazards on Sphear Pillar.

 

[Keitaro]

Official Final Stage List decided here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vz96eSYdFvc

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Official Final Stage List decided here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vz96eSYdFvc

Lol

Not only is this hilarious, but I pretty much agree with it.

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

How do you conbat that?

You don't, and shouldn't. By all means, tournaments with narrower starters and counterpicks have more diverse results. For example, whenever a stage like Final Destination is a counter rather than a starter, you give more power to a character like Ganondorf (at least in Melee.) In another situation where a space animal main got first pick they could just go straight for their first win on Final Destination against Ganondorf. Because the counter pick system ideally puts the winner of the first match in favor of the set (win-lose-win), you have situations where that Falco main really only has to work just hard enough to abuse Final Destination for the set advantage. There's practically little room for counter-play here. In janky stage lists that even have Jungle Japes it's pretty much over for the Ganon main if he wasn't first pick or didn't win the second match.

Stop right there: that sounds like a reason to counterpick the stage for characters with those strengths, isn't that the point of a counterpick stage?

Characters were designed for moving and fighting around neutral stages. Do you really feel comfortable drawing the line where we trim character viability (and therefore diversity) just so we can play on a stupid stage like Rainbow Cruise? Adding more starters and counter-picks won't remedy that situation either because for every stage that Diddy Kong or Meta Knight or Pichu might be good on, it's making just as many characters or more weaker. Eventually you've bloated the counter-picks to being a Free Win. Besides, we want to fight the player, not fight the stage.

 

[MopedOfJustice]

Characters were designed for moving and fighting around neutral stages. Do you really feel comfortable drawing the line where we trim character viability (and therefore diversity) just so we can play on a stupid stage like Rainbow Cruise?

But wouldn't ROB and similar characters be more viable if there are more dynamic stages?
I'm sure Pit would benefit from RC (not that I'd ever want to encourage playing as Pit).

And what do you think of the For Glory mode's "selection of stages?"

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

But wouldn't ROB (and similar characters) be more viable if there are more dynamic stages?

And what do you think of the For Glory mode's "selection of stages?"

Maybe? But I just said that just as many characters would be displaced by extended stage lists. Unless by more dynamic you mean stages in general required more sustainable up-b's like ROB's. Then yes.

The For Glory mode stage structure is dumb and it's going to over-centralize characters that have a good zoning or ground game. The lack of platforms is going to force every character towards the ground, removing vertical gameplay. There's no meaningful zoning to be had when you're firing projectiles at one elevation; the enemy has to take the hit, outmaneuver and pray for an opening, or land at a disadvantage. Platforms remove that pressure by giving the players the choice of approach and landing rather than racking up or dodging projectiles. Character like Little Mac (likely) and Ice Climbers just have to wait patiently for the enemy to engage and it's over for them. They can get away with playing defensively because the flat stage will always force the enemy to them.

 

[popsofctown]

Maybe? But I just said that just as many characters would be displaced by extended stage lists. Unless by more dynamic you mean stages in general required more sustainable up-b's like ROB's. Then yes.

The For Glory mode stage structure is dumb and it's going to over-centralize characters that have a good zoning or ground game. The lack of platforms is going to force every character towards the ground, removing vertical gameplay. There's no meaningful zoning to be had when you're firing projectiles at one elevation; the enemy has to take the hit, outmaneuver and pray for an opening, or land at a disadvantage. Platforms remove that pressure by giving the players the choice of approach and landing rather than racking up or dodging projectiles. Character like Little Mac (likely) and Ice Climbers just have to wait patiently for the enemy to engage and it's over for them. They can get away with playing defensively because the flat stage will always force the enemy to them.

There's so much wrong with your post, it's hard to know where to start.

The for-glory mode stage structure buffs characters that have a good zoning or ground game. Saying it "overcentralizes" those characters relies on an assumption that those characters are average or above average on a different stagelist, and become overpowered when they receive that buff. It may very well be the case that those characters are below average on a different stagelist, and are still underpowered or at balance after you remove non-FD stages. Assuming that Ice Climbers will be balanced on a multistage stagelist has an equally firm foundation as your assumption that Ice Climbers will be in the game at all.

Your description of projectile usage and projectile counterplay sounds like Brawl release month meta, although since you live in my state and I haven't heard of you at any of several tournaments I've been to, you probably are accustomed to Brawl release month quality kind of meta.

And Little mac cannot just "wait for the opponent to come to him " unless he has a projectile we are not aware of or a % lead that motivates his opponent to approach him. In fact, he has a mechanic that is in some ways the opposite of waft, and a player with a slight % disadvantage would theoretically prefer to wait until 1:00 is left on the timer to resume combat so that the entirety of competition could go down without Little Mac's instakill move ever reaching full charge. Not that that's very likely to happen in practice, it's just much more likely than the absurd scenario you've outlined where Little Mac spawns at 0% and compels opponents with or without projectiles to move towards him in a horizontal trance.

 

[MopedOfJustice]

There's so much wrong with your post, it's hard to know where to start.
Assuming that Ice Climbers will be balanced on a multistage stagelist has an equally firm foundation as your assumption that Ice Climbers will be in the game at all.

Remember when Sakurai was talking about having momentary difficulty implementing them? Given how Rosalina & Luma work, it seems pretty clear IC are returning.

Your description of projectile usage and projectile counterplay sounds like Brawl release month meta, although since you live in my state and I haven't heard of you at any of several tournaments I've been to, you probably are accustomed to Brawl release month quality kind of meta.

And Little mac cannot just "wait for the opponent to come to him " unless he has a projectile we are not aware of or a % lead that motivates his opponent to approach him. In fact, he has a mechanic that is in some ways the opposite of waft, and a player with a slight % disadvantage would theoretically prefer to wait until 1:00 is left on the timer to resume combat so that the entirety of competition could go down without Little Mac's instakill move ever reaching full charge. Not that that's very likely to happen in practice, it's just much more likely than the absurd scenario you've outlined where Little Mac spawns at 0% and compels opponents with or without projectiles to move towards him in a horizontal trance.

Didn't you say something earlier about making assumptions?
Nice to see we have people working on the ~7-months-before-release meta

 

[popsofctown]

I'm not aware of an official statement that ICs are in the game. Even if there is some official tweet that's ahead of the official site that says "the guys with the ice and hammers are going to be in", that doesn't mean that desynching and chaingrabbing certainly stay, so the character as we know it may not be in the game.

 

[Pacack]

I'm not aware of an official statement that ICs are in the game. Even if there is some official tweet that's ahead of the official site that says "the guys with the ice and hammers are going to be in", that doesn't mean that desynching and chaingrabbing certainly stay, so the character as we know it may not be in the game.

Sakurai mentioned that "duo character like Ice Climbers" were having trouble on the 3DS. Considering that Rosalina's on there no problem now, most people assume that that confirms Ice Climbers.

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

There's so much wrong with your post, it's hard to know where to start.

That's probably the coolest thing I've ever heard on these forums, pops. I see you are new to this thread and maybe you just want to jump right into something and have your say, but if you would carefully read what I was responding to, he explicitly asked me what I thought (keyword) about Final Destination's place in For Glory mode. I'm not going to throw any disclaimers into my opinions or predictions when they are asked for because they are implicit. You were wrong in treating it as a factual statement.

And no, what I think doesn't necessarily rely on the assumptions that "that those characters are average or above average on a different stagelist, and become overpowered when they receive that buff." Those same characters could still be strong on other stages but the nature of For Glory mode would cut down viable choices if you want to consistently win. This stage traditionally has counterpick properties after all. Anyway, I've already stated in another post I'll probably just end up looking at For Glory as a means to practice if the online environment is fast and stable enough.

...although since you live in my state and I haven't heard of you at any of several tournaments I've been to, you probably are accustomed to Brawl release month quality kind of meta.

I'll have you know that I can beat a level 7 CPU without losing more than one stock.

Uh, I don't know how the Brawl release window meta has to do with anything, really...

And Little mac cannot just "wait for the opponent to come to him " unless he has a projectile we are not aware of or a % lead that motivates his opponent to approach him. In fact, he has a mechanic that is in some ways the opposite of waft, and a player with a slight % disadvantage would theoretically prefer to wait until 1:00 is left on the timer to resume combat so that the entirety of competition could go down without Little Mac's instakill move ever reaching full charge. Not that that's very likely to happen in practice, it's just much more likely than the absurd scenario you've outlined where Little Mac spawns at 0% and compels opponents with or without projectiles to move towards him in a horizontal trance.

On Final Destination, edge games aside, all approaches and escapes against Little Mac must begin and end on the same elevation that he excels at. On another stage like Battlefield, you're not always forced towards the ground, which means maneuvering around the different tiers of elevation can give different approaches or force a character like Little Mac into the air, where they lose potential. I do understand that you're saying he has all the incentive to stay on the offensive because of his mechanic, but I think you're not looking at the full context when I say he can wait for the enemy to come to him on Final Destination: It's not that he could literally stand in place and Force Pull the enemy towards him, it's that most characters have nowhere else to go besides Little Mac's ideal elevation while fighting and recovering. Same goes for Ice Climbers.

There's good enough reason to believe that in For Glory we'll see players strongly gravitate towards characters with good ground games and/or projectiles because most people don't want to handicap themselves. I'm not going to deny there would be other characters who have the aerials and mobility to overcome the disparity, like Meta Knight and maybe Marth.

 

[MopedOfJustice]

I'll have you know that I can beat a level 7 CPU without losing more than one stock.

Well, I played a lvl 9, and I got him all the way up to 37% damage before he beat me.
And I was working at a disadvantage, having needed to use one of those janky Game Cube controllers. Can't wait for 4, Wiimote Master Race will dominate.

I hope Sakurai changes For Glory so that the FD versions will be more like a Battlefield version, with different platform set ups (sometimes with moving platforms). Maybe then it could be taken seriously.

 

[ImaClubYou]

You guys are obviously missing the point.

For fun mode is broken as hell. It needs to be Palutena's Castle only with different versions of Palutena's Castle and Bob-ombs only to make it fair.

 

[MopedOfJustice]

You guys are obviously missing the point.

For fun mode is broken as hell. It needs to be Palutena's Castle only with different versions of Palutena's Castle and Bob-ombs only to make it fair.

Filthy casual...
It needs to be Smash Balls only. And they need to fix that stupid only-one-Smash-Ball-appears-at-a-time glitch.

 

[ImaClubYou]

Filthy casual...
It needs to be Smash Balls only. And they need to fix that stupid only-one-Smash-Ball-appears-at-a-time glitch.

Filthy competitive casual....


Don't you know how to use the Super Scope to fire multiple Smash Balls?

 

[popsofctown]

That's probably the coolest thing I've ever heard on these forums, pops. I see you are new to this thread and maybe you just want to jump right into something and have your say, but if you would carefully read what I was responding to, he explicitly asked me what I thought (keyword) about Final Destination's place in For Glory mode. I'm not going to throw any disclaimers into my opinions or predictions when they are asked for because they are implicit. You were wrong in treating it as a factual statement.

And no, what I think doesn't necessarily rely on the assumptions that "that those characters are average or above average on a different stagelist, and become overpowered when they receive that buff." Those same characters could still be strong on other stages but the nature of For Glory mode would cut down viable choices if you want to consistently win. This stage traditionally has counterpick properties after all. Anyway, I've already stated in another post I'll probably just end up looking at For Glory as a means to practice if the online environment is fast and stable enough.



I'll have you know that I can beat a level 7 CPU without losing more than one stock.

Uh, I don't know how the Brawl release window meta has to do with anything, really...



On Final Destination, edge games aside, all approaches and escapes against Little Mac must begin and end on the same elevation that he excels at. On another stage like Battlefield, you're not always forced towards the ground, which means maneuvering around the different tiers of elevation can give different approaches or force a character like Little Mac into the air, where they lose potential. I do understand that you're saying he has all the incentive to stay on the offensive because of his mechanic, but I think you're not looking at the full context when I say he can wait for the enemy to come to him on Final Destination: It's not that he could literally stand in place and Force Pull the enemy towards him, it's that most characters have nowhere else to go besides Little Mac's ideal elevation while fighting and recovering. Same goes for Ice Climbers.

There's good enough reason to believe that in For Glory we'll see players strongly gravitate towards characters with good ground games and/or projectiles because most people don't want to handicap themselves. I'm not going to deny there would be other characters who have the aerials and mobility to overcome the disparity, like Meta Knight and maybe Marth.

My point is, you haven't played the game yet, so maybe all aerialists have the aerials and mobility to overcome the disparity, like Marth. The game is quite possibly going to be balanced around FD gameplay.

 

[SuperGuzzi]

Kind of a off-topic question: is there any list of "competitive" items for brawl? Did someone try already making a 'fair' item list?

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

My point is, you haven't played the game yet, so maybe all aerialists have the aerials and mobility to overcome the disparity, like Marth. The game is quite possibly going to be balanced around FD gameplay.

...Really, pops? Someone asked what I thought and I told them. Not having played the game is a non-issue as I wasn't making a factual statement.

Previous games were balanced around FD gameplay, as far as I know. I cannot find the article where Sakurai claims it. Here is his most recent discussion on how games are balanced.

EDIT: @ SuperGuzzi Yes. You can contact @Jack Kieser for more information or visit the ISP megathread here.

 

[Chiroz]

...Really, pops? Someone asked what I thought and I told them. Not having played the game is a non-issue as I wasn't making a factual statement.

Previous games were balanced around FD gameplay, as far as I know. I cannot find the article where Sakurai claims it. Here is his most recent discussion on how games are balanced.

EDIT: @ SuperGuzzi Yes. You can contact @Jack Kieser for more information or visit the ISP megathread here.

Well, Sakurai did state he does balance on FD without items and then moves to other mobiles stages, and lastly adds items, I remember reading that but...

Let's be honest here, the game has never, ever, ever been balanced like it is being balanced now. I mean we don't know how close the tiers will be or the strongest from the weakest character, but going from Melee to Brawl most of the characters weren't even touched. Sure they added some super armor and extra range and what not, but they were never redesigned like they are now. Its a whole new level of balance, probably more than just one whole new level xD.

 

[smashmachine]

Kind of a off-topic question: is there any list of "competitive" items for brawl? Did someone try already making a 'fair' item list?

ISP exists, but it's not particularly common these days (surprise surprise)

 

[Tails_Glados_Puff]

Do you guys think Smash 4 will be played with 3 stocks or 4 stocks? We know it will be faster then Brawl but will it be fast enough to have 4 stocks, or is it going to be just as campy?

 

[LiteralGrill]

At this point I've just hit a level of pessimism. Why are we discussing this? Everyone has to face fact and reason, the biggest tournaments and those who run them will choose the ruleset, us debating does nothing in the long run.

I hate to say that but it's how it has worked in every single other smash and unless tons of new huge TOs step in it's going to continue to be that way.

 

[MopedOfJustice]

At this point I've just hit a level of pessimism. Why are we discussing this? Everyone has to face fact and reason, the biggest tournaments and those who run them will choose the ruleset, us debating does nothing in the long run.

I hate to say that but it's how it has worked in every single other smash and unless tons of new huge TOs step in it's going to continue to be that way.

It could have some effect, if we reach a consensus and important enough people agree. Or not. Probably not.
I think the real reason is: Why not?

 

[ryuu seika]

I'll have you know that I can beat a level 7 CPU without losing more than one stock.

I get that this is probably a joke but I would like to point out, just incase it isn't, that I four-stock level 9s on lightning melee for relaxation.
With the 2nd worst character to boot.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

There are a good number of stages we have seen that can be competitive.

For Glory does favor certain character, same was FD favors some characters inherently.

It will be interesting on release to see how people try to handle it.

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

At this point I've just hit a level of pessimism. Why are we discussing this? Everyone has to face fact and reason, the biggest tournaments and those who run them will choose the ruleset, us debating does nothing in the long run.

I hate to say that but it's how it has worked in every single other smash and unless tons of new huge TOs step in it's going to continue to be that way.

Is that so? But you can't pass the blame onto the others. People wouldn't go to these tournaments if they fundamentally disagreed with them. You'll hear most of the tournament goers in good consensus over what the ruleset should be anyway. I mean, this is a thread in a non-competitive sub-forum and even here 75+% of the people that aren't TOs agree on smaller stage lists. And you don't have to run the biggest tournaments around to have a successful experience. Besides, you'll never succeed if you just give up like that. Back when this thread was still in its infancy, you were outright challenging people with creating a new scene:

Alright, I have a proposal.

I will create a thriving scene around a larger stagelist. You must agree to a few things however, in an effort of fairness.

You will not constantly bash my side of the argument. A lot of supporters are long gone because they were basically abused by the other side, treated horribly about having this opinion. None of that. If I'm to take your bet we do it on fair grounds, I won't go bashing you either.

Sounds fair? Then accept and we'll see what happens. A large social experiment where we see if a community can hold strong and coexist. Do you accept?

So is there actually anything to blame? Or were you just naive?

---

This may be a weird place to put this, but eh it's the social thread.

I've met a lot of cool people on this site, especially in this thread and I just felt to weird not giving everyone a proper goodbye. I've been coming on here less and less to the point of almost never visiting and I realize it's just time for me to move on. I'm tired of the debating, tired of the drama, and just plain tired in general. Smash and the community surrounding it is just too much for me to want to keep up with and finally sitting down to become heavily involved with it somehow tainted my love for it which sucks as now I have bad feelings towards my favorite game.

So I say farewell to all the awesome people I've met here. I sadly don't think I'll be back, so if for some crazy reason you want to stay in touch, pop me a PM. Hopefully the 3DS scene can flourish and someone makes that happen.

-Capps

I cannot believe that you are leaving Smashboards in its entirety just because you can't handle discussions that you entrench yourself in. There will always be people you don't like and disputes to be had no matter where you go, but the thing is, nobody is oppressing you here. Nobody is calling you stupid. There isn't any real drama. Half the time when I see you upset and feel like something is directed towards you, it's really them attacking an idea. Nobody is saying, "**** you, Capps." Hell, I remember when this thread was passed around on Facebook, it was you there calling people ignorant! I think people are putting up with you way more than you think you are putting up with them.

And I sent you a PM before you even wrote this and you never messaged back! Shame to see you go, especially after you made something like DataKai!.

 

[Senario]

I like this list. Pretty thorough (and kinda funny but has some truth to it). Plus it is made by HugS so its k.

 

[GUIGUI]

Just a question I alreasy asked in the stage thread: Do we have to obligatory ban walk-off? Why? unless it's something exploitable by some characters, I don't see any reason to do so.
The only reason to ban Walk-off is if it can give unfair advantage to certain characters.

I don't know if many share this opinion, but we should only ban stage who have random/unpredictable elements in it, or who have desing tha can be unfairly exploited by a limited number of character.

Therefore, stages whose source of damage actually follow a predictable pattern and/or you can 100% foresee should actually be Legal. This mean it can be tactically exploitable instead of being based on luck. This seems to be the case with the Megaman stage and the Yellow Devil, who has a very predictable pattern of attack. Even the moving platforms rise and lower in clockwork timed way.