Proposed Ruleset for Smash 4 Tournaments

[kataridragon]

Honestly. The smash community should just man up and go all FD. Why not? Just remove all variables including platforms. It's just like all other fighting games (I guess).

You asked for it now you got it.
Be happy!!!

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

I'm a little concerned that For Glory rules are going to become the tournament standard; i.e. FD only. I'm sure nobody wants that, but I can't help but worry that we'll see a new generation of players assuming that FD is the only way to play, and the transition will be inevitable.

Lord no. Smash 4 tournaments will be hosted by a lot of the same people who already host Melee and Brawl tournaments. We'll adopt a similar stage list and ruleset from those games.

I wasn't saying Olimar has an advantage against MK or anything to that effect. The match showed that, as I said a while ago, it was within the character's potential to be able to do well, and it certainly isn't his best stage. In other words, if other Olimar players can't do that, they can't complain, as it has been proven to be doable.

Simply getting outplayed does happen, and I think that's how you should look at that match. Except in a few cases, stages, match-ups, and player skills are predictors for the outcome. You'd have to be able to do something like that consistently against really high level players to adequately demonstrate that human capacity is the biggest deciding factor for the match composition. It might be that Gimpy's having a good day vs. a morale-crushed M2K's Meta Knight (say he's been on a losing streak for a while) and Gimp wins the set on stages like Rainbow Cruise. It doesn't suddenly mean those characters become viable on those stages.

Also, just because you can keep up with scrolling levels with a character like Ganondorf (even in training mode like Amazing Ampharos, what a BAMF Lol), it still introduces a glaring disparity in a lot of matchups, and it's not one that a player's ability or character introduced. Sure even starter neutrals like Smashville introduce disparities in tiny ways, but they aren't activately affecting the outcome of matches in the way that Rainbow Cruise or Mushroom Kingdom would. There's a difference between self-imposed restrictions and stage imposed restrictions that are out to get you.

You can imagine I said Bowser instead of Ganon, but no one is quite as useless dynamically disinclined as Ganon

Edit: Is that acceptable?

It's okay, man. It hurts, but sometimes the truth needs to hurt. Makes us Ganon mains feel alive.

--

...

I swear to god sometimes you get possessed by the spirit of Tolkien.

Walk-off camping in most match-ups is a bad tactic though...

The difference in power in back and forward throws isn't really enough to not camp the edge. Besides, the power discrepancy can be irrelevant in environments without hitstun cancelling. The player closer to the center of the stage, while having free range of movement, usually has few meaningful places to go, especially if they are down a stock or in damage. If they stay in place they risk lose the time window for a comeback or even (Lol, I know) timing out. They have all the reason to attack the player walk-off camping, and barring a successful mind game or outplay, they will be attacking on the defensive player's terms with usually higher predictability. That's a significant chunk of influence that player has. There's even the case where the winning player would forego racking up slag because their accumulated damage puts them at risk of getting ko'd or airborne anyway, so there's a greater reward for the same amount of risk.

You're sacrificing a lot of different types of gameplay in order to prevent players from having to deal with factors that any vaguely good player with average stage knowledge or better can deal with so incredibly easily.

But a lot of vaguely good competitive players still don't want to play on those stages. The opinion only gets narrower as you go up the skill tier. It's true a few of the stages have aspects that are (relatively) easy to learn and that you are sacrificing a lot of different types of gameplay by banning these kinds of stages, but it's gameplay that a lot of us (not to put myself in any category of "good") don't feel is important at all to fighting each other. Stage hazards, moving cameras, and walk-offs don't offer any real tangible goals.

The thing is that these dynamic factors actually have a huge impact; stages on which "approach from below" is a viable option show different facets of the match-ups that just can't be seen on FD or SV... ...It's not about taking away from the character-character match-ups as often portrayed; liberal stage lists are more born out of a desire to see the entirety of what the characters can do represented in the metagame instead of only a sliver that may not represent their true quality. I don't want to see the metagame artificially constrained out of a search for purity...

Don't get me wrong, I do think it's fascinating when the dynamics of a character is fundamentally changed through stage circumstance, especially Olimar, who I think it might be good for. Maybe it's not bad for them, but in the same scenario it's probably bad for everyone else, and it's not the kind of dynamics a lot of us are looking to explore in competition. I don't think you can satisfactorily explore a meta-game around this kind of thing either. You're either going to get a gimp meta where only the aerially robust and walk-off camp gods survive or you're going to have a confusing, irrelevant meta covering a breadth of skills where we'd have to manage our time and energy (How much time do you dedicate to your mechs, techs, and character vs. how much time do you devote to learning the damn stage, or even further match-ups on that stage?) The latter meta I think is unlikely because genuinely good players will always be good in any circumstance and the differences between them and players that devote their time towards learning stages will be made even more apparent.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Please stay on topic everyone. This thread is for discussing competitive Smash 4, not Melee/Brawl/PM, not to mention none of those stages and several of those characters have not be confirmed for the game either.

Because those games will be nothing like smash 4, right?

Also if I must say, smashville was amazing, especislly with platform canceling.

Oh and Hugo was pretty much right. The direct actually gave us a great view of what we should expect.

 

[mimgrim]

Also if I must say, smashville was amazing, especislly with platform canceling.

Still overrated.

And not the most balanced like Moped and empyrean like to try and point out. It's just a slightly less polarizing form of FD in the end.

 

[Empyrean]

Still overrated.

And not the most balanced like Moped and empyrean like to try and point out. It's just a slightly less polarizing form of FD in the end.

I said I personally believe that Smashville was the most balanced stage if you considered PS2 with the transformations. Just because a stage has been tested out to be the most balanced by some doesn't exactly make it absolute truth, specially with a game like Smash Bros. Regardless, I don't want to drag the thread off-topic again.

From the direct, it has become quite clear what stages will probably be legal. But for some of the others, we really need to try them out a bit before ruling them out. Maybe the 3DS version releasing early will help us pinpoint what stage elements can potentially be problematic, therefore saving us a bit of time.

 

[mimgrim]

The Balloon Fighter stage is rather interesting. It's a walk-off stage without a walk-off. The hazards don't seem to bad either, no worse then Halberd anyway lol.

But still seems to make the recovery aspect of the game moot and has too much of a focus on Vertical kills. But still. It is very interesting. Probably banned. :L

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

The Balloon Fighter stage is rather interesting. It's a walk-off stage without a walk-off. The hazards don't seem to bad either, no worse then Halberd anyway lol.

But still seems to make the recovery aspect of the game moot and has too much of a focus on Vertical kills. But still. It is very interesting. Probably banned. :L

I am sure it will be banned even if it didn't have blast lines on the side. The Cave of Life elements (although relatively small) and poor access to vertical blast lines practically guarantee it. Any hazards it has are moot at this point. I can see a lot of people unintentionally timing out on this stage. Also, this stage is pretty much a godsend for stalling strategies.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Still overrated.

And not the most balanced like Moped and empyrean like to try and point out. It's just a slightly less polarizing form of FD in the end.

Universal spacing mechanic with platform for mix ups + Safe ledges that you can ride up (unlike FD) + extended recovery possibilities. How is it overrated when it gives so much?

Some of the dopest kills come from Smashville. A personal favorite of mine being when I was Marth. I read my opponents F smash and dropped through the platform to dodge it, double jump to platform cancel turn around jab, which pushes the opponent off the platform, I read that the opponent would DI forwards the stage so I dropped through and footstool>Dair spike.

There are so many unique properties to Smashville tag all characters can explore. It's second best to battlefield.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I swear to god sometimes you get possessed by the spirit of Tolkien.

It's what I do.

The difference in power in back and forward throws isn't really enough to not camp the edge. Besides, the power discrepancy can be irrelevant in environments without hitstun cancelling. The player closer to the center of the stage, while having free range of movement, usually has few meaningful places to go, especially if they are down a stock or in damage. If they stay in place they risk lose the time window for a comeback or even (Lol, I know) timing out. They have all the reason to attack the player walk-off camping, and barring a successful mind game or outplay, they will be attacking on the defensive player's terms with usually higher predictability. That's a significant chunk of influence that player has. There's even the case where the winning player would forego racking up slag because their accumulated damage puts them at risk of getting ko'd or airborne anyway, so there's a greater reward for the same amount of risk.

I really just don't agree with this analysis at all, and I've played plenty on walk-off stages. Actually doing the camping is so much more predictable than approaching the camping ever could be, and the attacker at least can choose his timing and spacing while the defender is just sitting there hoping to react. The attacker can hit with almost any move and score an early kill; the defender has literally one move that will work out, and in no smash game that I'm aware of is it really reasonable to combo backwards off a throw so hitstun canceling isn't really relevant here. Just think about it on other stages; if you stand with your back to the ledge on FD and don't move while you have a lead, who is more likely to score the next hit: you or your opponent? The rewards are different for hits in the FD situation versus a walk-off, but the neutral gameplay is basically the same. I think most players would agree that the freely moving player has a substantially higher chance of scoring the next hit; even with Brawl levels of shieldstun, not moving is just too bad of a disadvantage to leave you in the favorable position.

But a lot of vaguely good competitive players still don't want to play on those stages. The opinion only gets narrower as you go up the skill tier. It's true a few of the stages have aspects that are (relatively) easy to learn and that you are sacrificing a lot of different types of gameplay by banning these kinds of stages, but it's gameplay that a lot of us (not to put myself in any category of "good") don't feel is important at all to fighting each other. Stage hazards, moving cameras, and walk-offs don't offer any real tangible goals.

I think the actual reality is that a huge number of players don't agree with this view even as others do, and that's why I suggest reasonable compromise. You probably find stages like Rainbow Cruise less offensive than stages like Port Town Aero Dive. To be honest, I'd be perfectly okay playing on both and actually think both have plenty of competitive merit, but I do consider Rainbow Cruise a bigger loss. When one side wants to get rid of a lot of stuff, some more than others, and the other side wants to keep a lot of stuff, some more than others, and the same stuff one side wants to keep desperately is the same stuff that's relatively non-offensive to the other side, the sane solution is to compromise. The alternative that we've explored with Brawl's ruleset is basically playing political games to force the complete will of slim majorities on everyone, and a lot of times from what I've seen the majority actually does want to ban less but the politics just makes banning so easy that it happens anyway. I talk to people about what they think about stage lists all the time, and it's not uncommon for whichever player to say that they think some particular banned stage shouldn't be banned if you ask though it's just not an ordinary thing for most people to actually make an issue out of it if not asked.

Don't get me wrong, I do think it's fascinating when the dynamics of a character is fundamentally changed through stage circumstance, especially Olimar, who I think it might be good for. Maybe it's not bad for them, but in the same scenario it's probably bad for everyone else, and it's not the kind of dynamics a lot of us are looking to explore in competition. I don't think you can satisfactorily explore a meta-game around this kind of thing either. You're either going to get a gimp meta where only the aerially robust and walk-off camp gods survive or you're going to have a confusing, irrelevant meta covering a breadth of skills where we'd have to manage our time and energy (How much time do you dedicate to your mechs, techs, and character vs. how much time do you devote to learning the damn stage, or even further match-ups on that stage?) The latter meta I think is unlikely because genuinely good players will always be good in any circumstance and the differences between them and players that devote their time towards learning stages will be made even more apparent.

I think the evidence doesn't support broader stage lists lead to narrower character viability at all so I'll just address the latter and more interesting point here. Yes, I admit it's true that focusing on more stages naturally leads to less practice on any given one, but is that a bad thing? I mean, another question to ask is this: should Yoshi be banned? In every smash game, Yoshi is really not very good but has a very unique playstyle while being just good enough that a dedicated main will always beat a player who doesn't know the match-up. This basically means that everyone has to learn how to fight against Yoshi and then Yoshi is irrelevant in the metagame; would we be able to better focus on more important skills if we banned Yoshi and saved everyone the trouble? I think most people would agree that that's not a good thought process; Yoshi is a part of the game, and it's the responsibility of the individual player to learn the skills necessary to deal with all game elements that will be potentially present in a tournament including weird low tier character picks like Yoshi. If an otherwise very good player loses to a Yoshi main just for not knowing the match-up, we say that player showed a lack of preparation and therefore deserved to lose; we don't tend to take sympathy that his loss was somehow not deserved. The time management of learning how to beat a strong Yoshi and the time management of learning how to play on XYZ "weird" stage is kinda the same thing; you can choose to make yourself a focused expert, or you can branch out and learn many skills. Different players will go for different balances on this, and it won't be obvious who is truly correct. Actual gameplay will prove who was correct, and there's no need to craft the rules to force a result one way or another.

You strike me as a pragmatist though so I will represent this whole issue a bit differently. You know that I'm not alone in how I look at liberal stage lists, and as the game gets closer, you're probably going to see these arguments heat up. Even if it's probably possible for people who agree with you to force a narrow stage list in the long run, it will create a lot of discord as my side is not going to accept complete and total surrender without years of fighting over it as was the case in Brawl. If your side just throws us a bone, meets us somewhere vaguely close to the middle, and maybe accepts playing on just a few more stages while still getting rid of most of what you really didn't like, it won't have a very big effect on what you wanted all along and will satisfy most members of my side. Isn't it worth it to just accept Rainbow Cruise so you can get out of having to deal with us pushing hard for Port Town Aero Dive since, if we can't get a compromise, we have no reason to do anything but push for the entirety of what we want ourselves? I really do feel like everyone getting together and coming to a good long term agreement will be really healthy for our entire community, but that's just not possible unless everyone gets at least some of what they want.

 

[BADGRAPHICS]

I really do feel like everyone getting together and coming to a good long term agreement will be really healthy for our entire community, but that's just not possible unless everyone gets at least some of what they want.

This will prove difficult when many of your opponents view any complex stage as a detraction from their ideal. It seems a large number in the community simply aren't interested in broadening their game, choosing a ruleset optimised for a distraction-free 1vs1 metagame. As reasonable or beneficial as it might be to campaign for a more diverse stage list, doing so is entirely at odds with the status quo, which most are content with.

As such, any compromise made must first be a compromise of ideals, or your "just a few more stages" risks being viewed as a corrupting influence likely to be quashed.

So, is the desire for more stages borne of a simple need for variety, or is there an underlying competitive philosophy? Unless it's the latter, I'm not sure a compromise is even warranted.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

I'm all for unity and all that, but unifying for the sake of modifying something that has proven to work honestly sounds like hippy bs.

Too many cooks spoil the broth.

 

[lordvaati]

I still think we should try every stage.

Who knows? This one looks different enough.

More specifically, the FD variants.

what people need to reember is this time they are balancing the game moreso around characters and stages. Since(almost) all stages have an FD variant, they are very likely balancing all characters around playing in a FD environment. So people who keep theorymonning and saying the 3 biggest FD offenders in Brawl(Falco, Olimar,Cs) will break the stage have no rule here. Hell, just by looking at the changes to Olimar imeans 1/3 ofgfenders will no longer be as dominant on the stage, so if the end Scene adopts a "4 stock, no item, For Glory Mode" ruleset, so be it......no different then <insert fighting game here> having all matches on Training stages anyway.

 

[MopedOfJustice]

Too many cooks spoil the broth.

Broth? I don't want meat diluting my hydration experience. It should just be me, and water (or if it's stocks, no crazy ones; four is more than enough). No stupid protein or what-have-you hampering my reception of the only compound that matters for a pure dining session. I don't care if some filthy casuals need a meat flavor to drink it, I want boiled water to be the only thing ingested, not that polluting muscle tissue (but let's not leave it boiling, it must ultimately be at a fair-and-balanced 85 degrees). I shouldn't have to learn how to process semi-solids, it would take away from the value of my ability to process liquids.

Edit: Human bodies are 60% water, not stupid broth. And I can assure you the other 40% isn't chicken meat, unless you've been drinking broth, in which case I can hardly consider you to be human.
Casual Human, let's say?

...so if the end Scene adopts a "4 stock, no item, For Glory Mode" ruleset, so be it......no different then <insert fighting game here> having all matches on Training stages anyway.

I see we have some boiled water fans here tonight!

 

[Sobreviviente]

Well, fact is, the majority of people is agree with OP.

This is the fourth entry in a fighting game series, people already know how to play the game and what to expect from it, they may not fully understand why, but they like it that way, so, why change it?

I mean what new gimmicks we had so far? WFT's Mirror, Balloon Fighter loops and bosses, and i'll be totally amazed if the last two are declared legal.

 

[BiscuitTricks]

Well, fact is, the majority of people is agree with OP.

This is the fourth entry in a fighting game series, people already know how to play the game and what to expect from it, they may not fully understand why, but they like it that way, so, why change it?

I mean what new gimmicks we had so far? WFT's Mirror, Balloon Fighter loops and bosses, and i'll be totally amazed if the last two are declared legal.

Don't forget Mario Galaxy has gravity that pulls slightly towards the center of the stage. I feel like that could be a cool tournament-legal trick of the stage, if it's not overly powerful or ridiculous. It's not competition breaking like Warioware and it's not completely competitively distracting like Pirate Ship or something.

 

[Sobreviviente]

Don't forget Mario Galaxy has gravity that pulls slightly towards the center of the stage. I feel like that could be a cool tournament-legal trick of the stage, if it's not overly powerful or ridiculous. It's not competition breaking like Warioware and it's not completely competitively distracting like Pirate Ship or something.

Uh i forgot, you are right.
It has walk-offs though, that could be a problem.

 

[BiscuitTricks]

Uh i forgot, you are right.
It has walk-offs though, that could be a problem.

Was it confirmed to have walk-offs? I thought it might go the way of having the gravity work around the whole small planet as a stage. Walk-offs wouldn't really make sense to me on the stage, but I could see that being something Sakurai does anyways.

 

[LiteralGrill]

.

I just don't have the energy for it anymore. Honestly I love debate and this entire thing interested me to the point that I tried to be a part of it. But when i looked at my life from a bit of distance I'm debating about a videogame on the internet. There are just so many better things I could be doing. It's just that simple, I'd rather be out having fun then taking the time to debate over all of this since in all reality the way some people play a game competitively means nothing in the grand sum of things, especially in my life.

While I will never say the competitive scene for smash isn't an awesome thing for people since I know how great it is for people making friends and having fun I've just found it just isn't for me. I don't think the people here are really bad, and I even like a lot of people I argued with. It's just when I look at how much time I am investing and would be investing here, the rewards don't match.

I will say however that I bet I could still form a scene with whatever ruleset I wanted entirely on my own. I think it is 100% possible still with proper organization. It would make a lot of people angry probably but... still doable. It's just the fact that I don't want to put in that effort with honestly zero reward in the end. Tons of hours of my time away from my wife and child, added stress when it comes to scheduling those events, a large financial consideration, with a return really of only other people enjoying it. I did something like this once already with another game, I'm not up for it again.

I can bring joy to others in life with much less work for a much larger reward. I've already started actually, I may even be able to open a business I've always wanted because of it. As much as I really do enjoy people here and making those people happy would be great I just have better things to do that I enjoy more so doing this has become a drag.

So there, a better explanation if needed.

If I may make one last comment on this particular subject the reason I wanted to pretty much make my own scene WAS to be a a big TO and be able to make these decisions. It's the only way any kind of positive necessary change would be made. Or any change at all. Apex in all reality actually decides rulesets, none of this in any way does. And people sending in well thought arguments matters little to a vocal minority if it exists anyways. So while the debate may make you feel better debating it will make no change. Only action will cause that change, and in the grand sceme of things the effort necessary is kinda a waste of time.

 

[Substitution]

Well, even then.
We'll miss ya buddy. Though, if anything. Maybe you just need a break from debating.

 

[MopedOfJustice]

Is it possible to not participate in huge debates (to the extent that you did) without leaving SB entirely? Your opinion is valued, and you're just kinda a cool guy.

 

[Shadow the Past]

Was it confirmed to have walk-offs? I thought it might go the way of having the gravity work around the whole small planet as a stage. Walk-offs wouldn't really make sense to me on the stage, but I could see that being something Sakurai does anyways.

From what we've seen, and what we can assume, it will most likely be a walk-off stage. I doubt they'd make the stage an entire planet that you could walk around, as cool as that might be.

 

[MopedOfJustice]

From what we've seen, and what we can assume, it will most likely be a walk-off stage. I doubt they'd make the stage an entire planet that you could walk around, as cool as that might be.

I just had a vision of Sonic circle camping on that stage. I need to scrub my eyes with carbonated bleach...

 

[Shadow the Past]

I just had a vision of Sonic circle camping on that stage. I need to scrub my eyes with carbonated bleach...

What about D3 chaingrab? Haha.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Broth? I don't want meat diluting my hydration experience. It should just be me, and water (or if it's stocks, no crazy ones; four is more than enough). No stupid protein or what-have-you hampering my reception of the only compound that matters for a pure dining session. I don't care if some filthy casuals need a meat flavor to drink it, I want boiled water to be the only thing ingested, not that polluting muscle tissue (but let's not leave it boiling, it must ultimately be at a fair-and-balanced 85 degrees). I shouldn't have to learn how to process semi-solids, it would take away from the value of my ability to process liquids.

Edit: Human bodies are 60% water, not stupid broth. And I can assure you the other 40% isn't chicken meat, unless you've been drinking broth, in which case I can hardly consider you to be human.
Casual Human, let's say?

I see we have some boiled water fans here tonight!

I'm sorry than turning my metaphor on its head didn't work for you .

 

[MopedOfJustice]

I'm sorry than turning my metaphor on its head didn't work for you .

I'm sorry that your snappy comment was ruined by a elementary spelling error.
I wasn't disagreeing with you, you're point was entirely valid. I was just bored and needed an excuse to make a stupid joke.

I will, however, defend that the stock pun was pretty good, if poorly executed.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

I'm sorry that your snappy comment was ruined by a elementary spelling error.
I wasn't disagreeing with you, you're point was entirely valid. I was just bored and needed an excuse to make a stupid joke.

I will, however, defend that the stock pun was pretty good, if poorly executed.

Tnhanks

 

[BADGRAPHICS]

I'm sorry that your snappy comment was ruined by an elementary spelling error.

ftfy

----

Anyway... regardless of any reasons stages might have been banned before, it's still worth reviewing them all before making a ruleset, no? Just seems like good practice. Even obvious ones like the Wii Fit stage should be checked out in a competitive environment before they're banned (though I suspect it's inevitable).

To take short-cuts is just lazy, and potentially gives us a diminished understanding of the game from the outset.

 

[MopedOfJustice]

ftfy

----

Anyway... regardless of any reasons stages might have been banned before, it's still worth reviewing them all before making a ruleset, no? Just seems like good practice. Even obvious ones like the Wii Fit stage should be checked out in a competitive environment before they're banned (though I suspect it's inevitable).

To take short-cuts is just lazy, and potentially gives us a diminished understanding of the game from the outset.

*Burn-Heal applied*

(I originally wrote "rudimentary," when I changed it I forgot to fix the article)
Edit: Wait
And I agree with the second bit as well
Edit: Wait:

Tnhanks

Pheonix stole the n!

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Lmao that was an awesome series of posts.

 

[MopedOfJustice]

Lmao that was an awesome series of posts.

I agree. The broth jokes were what really made it for me
Go to bee car-full two afoyd annie sbelling airs N the fuchar.

Edit: Let's all do what BG suggests. Hopefully the fuzzy resolution won't impede on my proof-reading again.

 

[T0MMY]

The Ruleset I will be using:

Oregon Ruleset:
1) Agree to characters
2) Agree to Stage
3) Play the game


Settings determined by events:

Spoiler

Events​

For Fun!
Rules: Time
Time Limit: 2 min
Handicap: Off
Damage Ratio: 1.0x
Stage Choice: Random (no Final Destination)
Items: On

Bracket: Single-elimination
Set: Best of 1

For Glory!
Rules: Stock
Stock: 2
Time Limit: 5 min
Handicap: Off
Damage Ratio: 1.0x
Stage Choice: Choose (Omega form only)
Items: Off

Bracket: Double-elimination
Set: Best 2 of 3

Doubles/Teams, Pools, and any side events like Smash Run/Customized Glory/etc. will have further settings as determined by the TO

Kinda simple, don't ya think? Not sure why some people want to make any kind of fuss over rules. Try it out.