• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Project M Social Thread

Status
Not open for further replies.

PGH Carroll

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 6, 2010
Messages
4,145
Location
Pittsburgh, PA aka #TipperCity
its always been like that. even in ssb64. and it is kind of a tech skill thing.

every good luigi player in melee ive ever played/seen has a unique way of holding the controller to mash. (vudujin brings in up to his face and turns it sideways. pakman puts in on the side of his leg and mashes. ect. )

if you make it so you dont have to mash, instead just hold a button.. people could make the same argument about haveing to mash out of grabs.

marios down b has already been changed to be more horizontal than vertical. and i dont find my self mashing hard to get far.
 

GP&B

Ike 'n' Ike
Joined
May 8, 2009
Messages
4,609
Location
Orlando, FL
NNID
MetalDude
its always been like that. even in ssb64. and it is kind of a tech skill thing.

every good luigi player in melee ive ever played/seen has a unique way of holding the controller to mash. (vudujin brings in up to his face and turns it sideways. pakman puts in on the side of his leg and mashes. ect. )

if you make it so you dont have to mash, instead just hold a button.. people could make the same argument about haveing to mash out of grabs.

marios down b has already been changed to be more horizontal than vertical. and i dont find my self mashing hard to get far.
To be fair, I can't even think of a good way to replace reducing grabbed time through mashing. I will say though that it's certainly not hard to do it for Mario and it's not as terribly hard to do with Luigi now (he starts ascending on the latter half of the animation so you have to keep mashing until the last frame).
However, Mario's vB has reminded me of an issue I've been having and it's that occasionally trying to mash vB out of tumble will make Mario drop considerably and gain no height at all. I've trained myself into using Cape first but it's still a weird issue in that it's never consistent.
 

ph00tbag

C(ϾᶘϿ)Ͻ
Joined
Mar 16, 2007
Messages
7,245
Location
NC
If we wanted to deal with randomness and chaos, we'd be playing with items on.
This gets into the details of what I said. Most people don't actually think about how items actually affect play. My opposition to them is because I've actually sat down and determined that not only can you not adequately prepare for them (in that the preparations that you do cannot possibly mitigate their effects), and the act of preparing for them drastically limits gameplay (in that it comes down to intelligent use of a small subset of tremendously overpowered items, and understanding of traditional mechanics of spacing break down completely once the items start spawning).

You can't quite adapt to star and screen kos, but you can prepare for them, and preparing for them only limits gameplay if you aren't willing to gamble in a small subset of situations.

That's the thing. This doesn't limit or enhance gameplay. It has no real value to the game. It's one thing if dying off the top is delayed compared to other blast zones: people are probably ok with death not being instant there. But there's nothing to gain from having 2 different death animations especially when it's determined randomly.

If there were different death animations based on % or how fast you were flying, or xyz aspect, sure it's fine. If something happens and you lose because of it, THEN you can use the intuitive "should have planned for it" card, like well you could have tried to kill him vertically sooner or if he passed the damage threshold you should have been aware and tried a horizontal KO. But being randomized does it no favors at all. There is no adapt, no "use it to your advantage" since it's random, and it doesn't add anything unique to gameplay since this all takes part after technically dying anyways. You're already hit, already sent past the blast zone, already dead, now flip a coin and see whether you lose the stock sooner or later??
Like you said. It doesn't limit gameplay. What it adds, though, is interesting in how it affects the choices the player makes.

Because there is something you can do about it. If you're so worried it will change the outcome of the match, then you can choose not to trade upward KO moves with your opponent. That's the safe option, and no one would fault you for taking it. But if the odds are in your favor that you'd win the exchange, and no other possible exchange favors you, then taking that exchange is worth taking a look at. That puts a very unique constraint on the decision-making process. That's what the mechanic brings to the table.

To approach the issue from another angle, you're looking at the topic from the perspective of "we want to change this and we can, so why don't we?" I'm saying that's a pretty terrible reason to change something. There have to be self-imposed limitations, otherwise anything goes, and that can be just as disastrous. I'm applying the Turnip Threshold to ott kos, because if we really wanted to do away with randomness on the level of ott kos, turnips would be getting changed as well.
 

TheReflexWonder

Wonderful!
BRoomer
Joined
Feb 10, 2005
Messages
13,704
Location
Atlanta, GA
NNID
TheReflexWonder
3DS FC
2492-4449-2771
Turnip stuff changes the overall power of the move by eliminating the better pulls. Changing the Star KO animations doesn't affect the viability of characters in a significant way.
 

CSDragon

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 10, 2011
Messages
201
I hate to interrupt the current line of thought, but I don't come by often, so...


All my friends are hardcore brawl players, to get them to play Project M was a miracle in itself, and they do like it better, but they constantly voice their complaints about things that seem "changed for no reason other than to make it more Melee", things they thing were better in Brawl.

One of the recurring complaints I hear from them most is "Why was reverse ledge grabbing in special fall removed between 2.0 and 2.1", and I honestly can't give a good reason. Why was it removed? It seemed like a good way to prevent needless SDs.
 

hotdogturtle

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 15, 2007
Messages
3,503
I hate to interrupt the current line of thought, but I don't come by often, so...


All my friends are hardcore brawl players, to get them to play Project M was a miracle in itself, and they do like it better, but they constantly voice their complaints about things that seem "changed for no reason other than to make it more Melee", things they thing were better in Brawl.

One of the recurring complaints I hear from them most is "Why was reverse ledge grabbing in special fall removed between 2.0 and 2.1", and I honestly can't give a good reason. Why was it removed? It seemed like a good way to prevent needless SDs.
There is no other reason because that is THE reason. The M in the game's name stands for Melee, and all of those things were done intentionally to replicate Melee's gameplay and style.
 

RaphaelRobo

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 24, 2011
Messages
2,833
Ph00tbag, are you near state campus? I want to get some games in with you once I move into my dorm, in both Melee and PM. I had a lot of fun in our games at the last NCSU, and learned a lot too.
 

`dazrin

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 11, 2012
Messages
2,213
Location
Vancouver, BC, Canada
"Why was reverse ledge grabbing in special fall removed between 2.0 and 2.1", and I honestly can't give a good reason. Why was it removed? It seemed like a good way to prevent needless SDs.
Honestly, a quite a few top level melee players have voiced this out, and the only answer I give them is: "Because melee. That's why."

Meta kept ranting over and over again because of that when 2.1 first got released. Probably because he couldn't go as far offstage to go for really unnecessary edgeguards.

.....tsch, puff players. >.>
 

CSDragon

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 10, 2011
Messages
201
There is no other reason because that is THE reason. The M in the game's name stands for Melee, and all of those things were done intentionally to replicate Melee's gameplay and style.
Yeah, but try using that as an explanation to get brawl players to come over. It doesn't work.

Besides, hasn't the goal of project M long since been changed to "creating the best smash experience"?
 

JCaesar

Smash Hero
Joined
May 28, 2004
Messages
9,657
Location
Project MD
NNID
JCaesar
Part of what makes Melee so exciting and fast-paced is the delicate offstage game. Being able to grab backwards out of special fall was too lenient on mistakes, and was one of the things contributing to longer matches.
 

ph00tbag

C(ϾᶘϿ)Ͻ
Joined
Mar 16, 2007
Messages
7,245
Location
NC
Turnip stuff changes the overall power of the move by eliminating the better pulls. Changing the Star KO animations doesn't affect the viability of characters in a significant way.
But the Turnip Threshold isn't about Peach. It never was.

@Raph: I'm in Cary, but considering I drive out to Raleigh every other week or so to visit Yeroc, I'm down with a quick jaunt in that direction.
 

`dazrin

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 11, 2012
Messages
2,213
Location
Vancouver, BC, Canada
Part of what makes Melee so exciting and fast-paced is the delicate offstage game. Being able to grab backwards out of special fall was too lenient on mistakes, and was one of the things contributing to longer matches.
I can agree with that. I guess that's part of what makes M2K's play so fun to watch.
 

abcool

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 6, 2007
Messages
871
Location
The Bahamas
Wow, you guys are complaining about Star KO's?! I don't think it should be changed. Vertical Ko's should take longer than horizontal. All characters have fsmashes that kill horizontally, but not everyone has great moves that kill vertically. I think what that implies is that in the event of a trade the game favors horizontal over vertical. This can be seen in the game itself because all characters have horizontal killing moves.

When you try and remove this mechanic and speed it up to match horizontal you buff characters that will have both kill patterns. Example: Fox vs Peach last percent Upsmash vs Nair. We all know upsmash kills her at 90%. So last stock last hit Fox would win everytime in a trade, pushing him further up the tier list because you just buffed him to be efficient in both horizontal and vertical kills with no risk factor. Trades would be pointless because the Peach main knows she will die first off the top and sides, character nerfed slightly to favor spacies even more. Not to mention you nerf jiggs because now instead of actually Di'ing to die off the sides you die instantly. Pretty sure Hungrybox won't be happy to know you nerfed his main.

I think it doesn't matter. If you and your friend come down to last stock last hit and you choose to trade everytime stop blaming the game because you think you "deserve to win" You made the choice to kill vertical(probably favors your character). The 2 different animation deaths from vertical Ko's shouldn't matter. It's like port proirity the chances of you and your friend both dying off the top at the sametime, last percent is rare. You wanna change this one little aspect because in the event it happens it it should be fair in the end? Well what about Snake being player 2 and walking into a bomb and only u being blownup, what if they can't fix it? That is even worst than Star KO's.

Point is we need to stop with nitpicking every little thing about Smash in general. Star KO's will be the same in all smash games, you can change it in P:M, but when u go back to Melee you gotta deal with it. (Which i think will have a higher priority over P:M for quite sometime)
 

JCaesar

Smash Hero
Joined
May 28, 2004
Messages
9,657
Location
Project MD
NNID
JCaesar
... That's not what the argument was about. It was about star KOs vs screen KOs (also off the top) because they sometimes determine the outcome of a match by blind luck.

:phone:
 

abcool

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 6, 2007
Messages
871
Location
The Bahamas
... That's not what the argument was about. It was about star KOs vs screen KOs (also off the top) because they sometimes determine the outcome of a match by blind luck.

:phone:
At one point the argument was about Star KOS taking longer. An i did mention the Star vs Screen. I said it's as big a deal as port priority because the situation in which it happens or affects gameplay does not happen often. If you can find more that 10 Melee vids with this deteremining the outcome i will change my stance on. Until i see 10 vids of pros in this situation, you're simply changing it for he sake of changing it.
 

Kink-Link5

Smash Hero
Joined
Jul 10, 2007
Messages
6,232
Location
Hall of Dreams' Great Mausoleum
Port priority has a consistent, foreseeable, and workable effect on the match.

Jiggs dying because the opponent came back fast enough to hit her after rest instead of taking long enough to come out of it is unforgivable.
 

Yeroc

Theory Coder
BRoomer
Joined
Feb 28, 2004
Messages
3,273
Location
In a world of my own devising
I've won a match against a Jiggs by hard DIing out to get a side KO just so I could come back and get the kill before, so in a way that's actually something of a moot point.
 

RaphaelRobo

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 24, 2011
Messages
2,833
@Raph: I'm in Cary, but considering I drive out to Raleigh every other week or so to visit Yeroc, I'm down with a quick jaunt in that direction.
I'm moving in on the 9th, so I'll contact you after that with my location and whatnot.

And Yeroc, the same invite goes for you. Given that you're in Raleigh, I assume you're close to state.
 

iLink

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 17, 2007
Messages
2,075
Location
NorCal
At one point the argument was about Star KOS taking longer. An i did mention the Star vs Screen. I said it's as big a deal as port priority because the situation in which it happens or affects gameplay does not happen often. If you can find more that 10 Melee vids with this deteremining the outcome i will change my stance on. Until i see 10 vids of pros in this situation, you're simply changing it for he sake of changing it.
The point is, if both players are hit horizontally, there is a chance that a player will be star KO'd and the other screen KO'd. The guy being star KO'd will win because that takes longer for the stock to drop. They were asking if the screen KO can be made to last as long as the star KO to make it consistent and not just luck based.

I can say I've seen at least 2 tournament sets in person be decided by a star KO vs a screen KO.
 

RaphaelRobo

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 24, 2011
Messages
2,833
It's only happened to me once, and in that situation, I purposely went for the trade because I knew that the extra time from the death animation off the top would cause my opponent to die first, even though I would go off the screen first.
 

JCaesar

Smash Hero
Joined
May 28, 2004
Messages
9,657
Location
Project MD
NNID
JCaesar
Huh? Do you mean you went for a side KO? That's not what we're talking about. You can't know if you're going to get a screen KO when you die off the top. It's random.
 

N.A.G.A.C.E

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 30, 2008
Messages
2,919
Location
NY (LI)
I think he is saying u can di the rest so u die off the side, so talking about rest and revenge killing jiggs b/c of screen ko or not being able to b/c of star ko doesn't really matter

:phone:
 

RaphaelRobo

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 24, 2011
Messages
2,833
I meant I went for a side KO, while getting my opponent to KO me off the top. Whether it was a star KO or a screen KO, I would have won.
 

Strong Badam

Super Elite
Administrator
Premium
BRoomer
Joined
Feb 27, 2008
Messages
26,545
And JCaesar is saying your anecdote is not relevant to the discussion on whether Star KO/Screen KO lengths should be homogenized.
 

RaphaelRobo

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 24, 2011
Messages
2,833
Oh, it's not. I mentioned it because there had been discussions about wanting to get rid star/screen KOs completely, and I was just talking about that game because you can win by factoring it into account. It would have been a lot riskier if the star/screen lengths had mattered, but I still would have gone for it.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom