Project M Social Thread

[Archangel]

appearently DDD is going to have his minons redone.

 

[genkaku]

wombo combo waddle dees

 

[Archangel]

wombo combo waddle dees

I was hoping for a vid of that. Someone has to give a play by play of what happened for those that couldn't see the stream.

 

[GP&B]

EDIT: Laaaaaaaaaaaaate, needs moar Refresh button.

 

[Alondite]

Or you suck? That's how the game is played it bad don't blame bad game design...

Im complaining about a bad design element so now I'm a bad Melee player? I'd like to know the logic behind that one. Actually, I can L-cancel and wavedash on demand just fine. They are both reflex at this point. I just don't understand how having to press a button to cancel lag adds anything to the gameplay.

Like Sox said, don't blame the game if you're not willing to work for your skills. Wave dashing is technically not even supposed to BE in the game, so why would it have a simple input? And I fail to see how L-cancelling is bad game design, even with your examples.

Let's use Street Fighter as an example. To pull off links, most of the time you must have spot-on timing. Some to the point of being nearly frame-perfect. If you were allowed to input the link's commands without any timing involved how would that affect the gameplay? You would have average players pulling off beastly combos just because they KNOW the links. It's the time and effort needed to master the timing of the link that makes pulling off combos satisfying, not just knowing the inputs.

Pulling off a 0-death combo with Falco just wouldn't feel the same if the inputs for wavedashing and L-canceling were simplified to me

I already worked for my skills. I can perform both just fine. There is nothing wrong with the actions of wavedashing or lag canceling at all, it's the EXECUTION. Why not just make l-canceling automatic? What do you lose? Nothing. Exact same effect. All you lose is an extra input that isn't even necessary.

Same with wavedashing. If it would be possible to make a wavedash just a diagonal dodge into the ground as opposed to a diagonal air dodge to the ground (or allow both for wavelands) then why not do it? It could arguably make wavedashing even more effective because you can perform it quickly.

Mastering the timing of the links IS the game in Street Fighter, not being able to perform the moves required for the links. That's what I'm saying. It's HOW you use, say, wavedashing that gives Melee depth, not being able to perform it.

This is a terrible post and you should feel bad.

He has a valid point, but it's only one method of game design. Not the end all one. Being able to know how to use a move is most important, but execution via finger skill is a legitimate variable/attribute to add to a game. It adds artificial difficulty and based on the crowd, can be a good or bad thing.

It's the classic complexity vs. depth argument. Complexity is only good as long as it lends itself to depth. Manual l-canceling doesn't really add anything that automatic doesn't, but automatic makes the game easier to play. You still need to know how to use the lag reduction though, which still requires intimate knowledge of the game, and still a degree of technical skill, but not pointless arbitrary dexterity. Simplified inputs make moves easier to perform, which in turn can lead to more overall depth.

People enjoy melee for many reasons, one of those reasons happens to be artificial difficulty created by complex button inputs to cause a specific event to happen.

To some degree, artificial difficulty is reflected in all games because designers make the more rewarding commands more complex than others.

Case in point, Ultras vs Supers in SSF4.

Ultras = More reward, but require more difficulty in inputs, however slight vs Supers which are weaker but easier to input. V:

Actually, Ultras are designed to be as simple and like the Supers as possible, but involve a slightly different command out of necessity (can't map two actions to the same command). They are still piss-easy to perform, but knowing when to use them is key. Ultras also require a full Revenge Gauge, and with Supers you need to decide between using EX attacks or saving up for the Super. They aren't harder because they are more powerful. The fireball is arguably more useful than the dragon punch, but it's easier to perform. Part of the reason SF is so successful as a competitive game is because it is simple to play, but still has a lot of depth.


The melee community prefers a good amount of artificial difficulty. So it's reflected in desire.


Is simplifying commands to make them more accessable a bad thing? Not really, but it's not really a good thing either.

How is it not a good thing? You make the game easier without losing any depth. If anything, making the game easier to play lends itself to MORE depth because it provides more viable options due to increases success rates.

It's just game design. That's all.

But game design is not subjective. There is such a thing as good and bad game design.

The developers are catering to an audience that wants artificial difficulty.

I understand that...but I'm still baffled by why anyone would want that. If commands are simplified for you, then they are for your opponent too. If you both can perform moves easier then it doesn't really make it any easier for you to win, just easier to play

/rapesthisarguement

The Complexities are part of what make Melee special and Streetfighter like every other game. It may have been among the first but I can think of at least 50 games off top that play exactly the same give or take a few things. It's a safe design game with simple mechanics. Press Down, Foward this to do a special back to block....etc. After YEARS the newest Streetfighter game is still a basic 2D fighter design with nothing special about it. The ability to block, Roll, Spot-dodge, Air dodge, Wavedash, and Waveland in a 2D world gives you a sense of limitlessness compared to most fighters. Even comparing the projectile game such as Fox's SH-double laser to simply back up and hadoken....idk you cant even compare it.

Street Fighter is also the biggest competitive fighting game on the planet. And no, it's not just like every fighter out there. Why is Street Fighter bigger than say... Dead or Alive? It's simpler. Sure, if you have complete mastery over every combo for a character then DoA probably has quite a bit of depth, but since most of them are a pain to pull off on demand, most players rely on simpler combos that are easier to execute, but limiting and predictable. That's why DoA doesn't really have a competitive following. There's just not a whole lot of accessible depth. Street Fighter has a lot of accessible depth, and it's easy to play. It's a successful formula.

The truth is taking away techs like WDing and L-cancels won't change anything. If you are the kind of person that blames your failures on the game instead of looking inward to find the true answers to your problems then your never going to succeed in any competitive game you play.

I wasn't talking about taking them away, I was talking about simplifying their execution. I firmly believe that the actions of wavedashing and lag canceling should be in the game.

If you look at the most popular and well established competitive games they all have a level technical skill that is required to play at a high level. For example, if you can't hit your groundstrokes consistently in tennis then your gameplan is much less significant since you may fail to execute anyways. This applies to any sport. Some people truly enjoy building their fundamental skills from the ground up and watching their options expand as they master new things, while some want all of their options to be handed to them from the get-go.

Right, but they still make them as simple as they can be. Look at the old force out rule in football. It was too difficult to determine whether a player was forced OoB or would have gone OoB regardless, so they changed to rule so that any player who lands OoB after a catch is OoB whether they were forced out or not. This also gives defenses another option to stop plays: force the reciever OoB. More viable options = more depth.

Same applies to your tennis example. Manual L-canceling is the equivalent of having cycle racket hands (like hit with right, switch to left, then back to right, then hit again) before you hit the ball every time. The end result isn't any different, but there's a bunch of unnecessary complexity leading up to the result. It doesn't add anything to the game, just makes it more complicated. Complexity without depth is a bad thing.

 

[GP&B]

inb4infractions

Seriously, stop. You are going to accomplish nothing with this.

 

[ValTroX]

You do realize that missing an L-cancel WILL me up a combo right? wave dash becomes second nature after a while, but you do NOT land wave dashes at 100% rate, so it makes the game more challenging. Deal with it, they will always be there, and makes the game much more rewarding to learn and they are little things that separate noobs from experienced players.

 

[products]

What about falcon's nair, theres that specific timing where you want to get both hits in, fast fall and l cancel. But sometimes if you overshoot your nair, not causing both hits or any hits for that matter this can cause you to miss the l cancel. This usually happens to me with fox as well, if I miss my nair I screw up my timing for the l cancel. If my opponent dash danced away from my nair resulting in my missed l cancel I believe he deserves to follow up with whatever he chooses and that it was my fault for being punished instead of bad game design.

 

[Sneak8288]

Execution is the key. Mess up your execution of a wavedash or l cancel you get punished for it and it still does happen even at high level due to things like shield DI or ice climbers full shield/light shield tech. I think taking away the option of being able to punish execution errors is taking away depth from the game. On another note.. connors snake looking extra sexy.. definitely want some snake dittos

 

[JCaesar]

We've heard it all before. We've looked at both sides. It has been decided on. So drop it. Everyone.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

i'm suprised you guys even had to look at both sides for something called "Project: M"
DURR HURR MAKE DIS GAME EASIA REMOVE DA TECHSKILL PLZ KTHNX I LIKE BAWLRLRLRLRLRLRLRLRL

anyways i don't usually scroll through the pages, any major awesome changes to wario lately?

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Drop it. Everyone. I'm serious.

 

[superyoshi888]

wombo combo waddle dees

You mean THAT's what I've been missing?!

**** man. Someone upload this.

 

[Rikana]

Lots of stuff.
TL;DR I didn't read but its obviously about Lcancels

Now you gotta learn how to infraction-cancel. No one really cares about how well you debate against Lcancel. Its staying. Even if it is just muscle memory in the end, its the difference in making a combo and making them all connect with Lcancel properly applied than to have auto cancel attacks that guarantee you combos with combo-oriented characters. Even to this point, do you know how many people still can't connect combos fluently when using Falcon in Melee? And Melee's been around for how many years?

Drop the Lcancel topic. Its staying.

 

[Stevo]

responding to someone telling them to drop it, is in itself not dropping the topic. (neither is commenting on someone responding, like this)

I concur that videos need to be uploaded for those who didnt get the chance to see any of the stream.
were they recorded at all?

 

[GHNeko]

It's the classic complexity vs. depth argument. Complexity is only good as long as it lends itself to depth. Manual l-canceling doesn't really add anything that automatic doesn't, but automatic makes the game easier to play. You still need to know how to use the lag reduction though, which still requires intimate knowledge of the game, and still a degree of technical skill, but not pointless arbitrary dexterity. Simplified inputs make moves easier to perform, which in turn can lead to more overall depth.

I understand. I supported ALR over L-Canceling during Brawl+'s lifespan, but that doesn't mean I don't see the appeal and desire of L-Canceling. We both agree that it's pretty arbitrary when it comes to the overall depth as it achieves the same ****ing result, but that's not the point that I am trying to make. The point is that this arbitrary tech is still a legitimate attribute to add to the game because of the artificial difficulty it adds which is what the target audience desires.

Also, making something easier does not add as much depth as you might think, at least for this game/scenario. It's based on how much is changed from the origin. I think you're over-estimating how much ALR affects a game vs L-Canceling.


Actually, Ultras are designed to be as simple and like the Supers as possible, but involve a slightly different command out of necessity (can't map two actions to the same command). They are still piss-easy to perform, but knowing when to use them is key. Ultras also require a full Revenge Gauge, and with Supers you need to decide between using EX attacks or saving up for the Super. They aren't harder because they are more powerful. The fireball is arguably more useful than the dragon punch, but it's easier to perform. Part of the reason SF is so successful as a competitive game is because it is simple to play, but still has a lot of depth.

Then that was just a bad example on my part. I play a bunch of fighters, but pretty much all of them have simple controls. Lmao.

How is it not a good thing? You make the game easier without losing any depth. If anything, making the game easier to play lends itself to MORE depth because it provides more viable options due to increases success rates.

As I've said, arbitrary/complex inputs is a flavor that accents a dish which is the game. If arbitrary/complex inputs is a sort of spicy dish accent, and the crowd of gamers in front of you is hungry for something that will make their mouths(hands) burn, then you offer them the dish with arbitrary/complex inputs. It's as simple as that. And making the game easier does not add that much depth. Really. It doesn't. The amount of depth added is practically negligible because the truly dedicated will master the game regardless of easy inputs or complex inputs.

Nor does it create more viable options. Viability of a move is barely based of how easy it is to perform. Infact, sometimes, the viability of a move/tactic grows with complexity. Case and point, Ice Climbers in Melee AND Brawl. Ask any one, if the CGs were half as hard to perfect/near perfect and do consistantly, they would of been banned so long ago. As long as an option is realistically possible to perform, how hard or easy it is to execute has very little weight on its viability.

AND on the flip side, making a game too easy can remove depth as well. :V

If i move is so complex that it isnt logically viable, then generally everyone who plays the game would agree on making it easy. And obviously, there is no such thing in Melee or P:M.

But game design is not subjective. There is such a thing as good and bad game design.

Wrong imo. People who think a game is ****ing terrible can be loved by someone else. Example. Sonic Shuffle. That game is mocked by a super majority of the gaming community period. however, I loved it and I think the design trumps that of Mario Party.

Game design is subjective bro. A ****ty game can be a great game to anyone.

I understand that...but I'm still baffled by why anyone would want that. If commands are simplified for you, then they are for your opponent too. If you both can perform moves easier then it doesn't really make it any easier for you to win, just easier to play

Because it's what they WANT. Keyword. WANT. People want **** in life that completely ****ing confuses the **** out of me. Why the hell do people want 24 inch rims on a beat up car? Wouldn't that money be better saved on getting a better car if you care so much about automobiles? **** like that. It's pretty much just a case of personal preference and taste and **** like that bro.

You can't beat the majority in this case. People want **** to be needlessly harder in P:M, so be it.

I love ALR and I love L-Canceling. I see the pros and cons of both. If anything, L-Canceling helps you more than ALR when it comes to a tech heavy game like Melee/Project:M because of the fact that it builds finger dexterity that you'll need to perform the more complex **** with. :3c

/rapesthisarguementAGAIN

Done because I'm tired of getting infracted for this thread. LOL.

 

[Anth0ny]

Did PSI ban himself for referring to the situation?

 

[GP&B]

Needs moar lmao.gif

 

[Deleted member]

Did PSI ban himself for referring to the situation?

Yeah. What the ****?


You guys should make a new thread for P:M where only the devs, P:M BR, testers, Stingers, and Neko can post. Just filled with news, info, videos, and a FAQ for people viewing the thread.

 

[stingers]

I disagree. Where is ICHIGOBLEACH?

 

[GP&B]

I was pretty sure he got banned.

 

[JCaesar]

He still posts sometimes on his original account.

 

[stingers]

He still posts sometimes on his original account.

wait, what is his original account?

 

[ManEg]

been gone for a couple of weeks, anything new? (besides l-cancel argument, dont wanna hear about that)

wait, what is his original account?

I think he referred to when they thought you were him

 

[Shadic]

Marth has been replaced by Roy.

And Metaknight is replacing half the cast.

 

[JCaesar]

I think he referred to when they thought you were him

Nah we know who it really was.

 

[stingers]

and you wont tell me? lame

 

[ManEg]

Marth has been replaced by Roy.

And Metaknight is replacing half the cast.

I guess Im cool with those changes; just make sure roy emulates MK's playstyle and it's all good

No but seriously nothing?

 

[Xyless]

Lucario and Mewtwo are not clones by any stretch of the imagination so there is no chance they will be merged. Lucario is going to stay Lucario.

As I've said before, Lucas is more of a Mewtwo clone than Lucario. All Lucario has in common with Mewtwo is the balls, and even then, they're rather different.

 

[stingers]

As I've said before, Lucas is more of a Mewtwo clone than Lucario.

well you clearly don't know anything about mewtwo then

OH BOY ELECTRIC MULTI HIT NAIR

 

[GP&B]

I'm going to guess it's mostly background work that's going on. There's barely anything worthwhile to post about if they're (theoretically) just trying to build characters into whatever current ideal setups they want to mess around with at the moment.

 

[Archangel]

As I've said before, Lucas is more of a Mewtwo clone than Lucario. All Lucario has in common with Mewtwo is the balls, and even then, they're rather different.

For some reason I can't stop laughing about this.

 

[Rikana]

Lucario clearly has DJC.

 

[JCaesar]

Actually you have a point. I wouldn't call them clones but Lucas certainly has more in common with Mewtwo than Lucario does.

 

[GHNeko]

I have more in common with Mewtwo than Lucario does, tbh.

 

[Xyless]

Actually you have a point. I wouldn't call them clones but Lucas certainly has more in common with Mewtwo than Lucario does.

Exactly. At the very least, he has Mewtwo's dsmash and nair. It isn't a great comparison, but neither is Lucario, once you take off the rose-tinted glasses.

 

[Anth0ny]

I think everyone just went "Mewtwo was replaced by Lucario! I mean, he's an anthropomorphic Pokemon! And his neutral B is the same! zomg clone lololololl1l!1!"

Lucas actually is much more similar

 

[Rikana]

I have more in common with Mewtwo than Lucario does, tbh.

Both of you are technekol.

Oh no I didn't.

 

[genkaku]

Is Dant back yet? I'm bored with all this not hype stuff.

 

[Luxor]

He'll be home tomorrow, my good man.