Project M Social Thread

[Slashy]

The only one that they aren't doing is bringing back all old characters (of course you would need the clone engine) and i think that's gonna back fire when it's almost done.

That's something that's hopefully being worked on, you can't say they weren't considering it.

Also, why haven't the Brawl players solved their games' issues with hacks?

PM=Better than Melee
PM=Different than Melee by definition
PM=Different
therefore,
PM=Bad
PM=Worse than Melee

And this is a perfect logic that a lot of people will follow.

Unfortunately that's probably true, that kinda logic holds true in the Brawl community as well.

 

[Evilagram]

You can see plenty of topics with people hailing that Project M will never replace Melee, the stigma is already there, people are hating the product before they tried out the final version.

Let me remind you that isn't supposed to replace Melee, so if it really is going to be perceived the same way by all players as being superior to Melee then what do expect their attitude to be.

"It's nice that we have an alternative with better balance, nicer graphics, more characters, and more stages, but we'll stick to the same thing we've been playing for the past 10 years."

That's not what "hailing" means.

That has little to do with how good project M is as a game, which is what I was addressing. I'm personally doing a lot of research into how we can get wider acceptance with Project M than any mod before it. I happen to be well read on social psychology and persuasion tactics.

 

[Gust14]

The thing is PM is made for the competitive comunity and they play melee, an old discontinued game with almost no sponsor anymore. They play it because they like the game and the comunity, not because it is an official nintendo release. I do belive that when this comes out many pepople will stick playing melee, but many others will change to PM and through word of mouth the whole comunity will accept it. I mean a lot of people already have a wii and a sd card, getting the dowload is not that much effort for playiinf an upgraded version of the game oyu love.

 

[Slashy]

That's not what "hailing" means.

That has little to do with how good project M is as a game, which is what I was addressing. I'm personally doing a lot of research into how we can get wider acceptance with Project M than any mod before it. I happen to be well read on social psychology and persuasion tactics.

Some people are going in with the negative stigma of assuming that a group of guys across the western world (mostly North America) could make something better than Sakurai and the Melee team, which may permanently taint their impression of the game.

 

[Crispy4001]

So, I take it none of the vids so far show LD fixed?

 

[Crispy4001]

Some people are going in with the negative stigma of assuming that a group of guys across the western world (mostly North America) could make something better than Sakurai and the Melee team, which may permanently taint their impression of the game.

Of which roughly 0% make up the competitive Melee scene.

Convincing the larger populace is a different case. Project M still does have things going for it in that regard: Smash 64 stages and (potentially) revamped AI most notably. Ultimately, it comes down to those people disappointed in Brawl or who'd want an updated Smash being open to give it a shot. That's the larger concern. Because the final release isn't too likely to disappoint them if they actually play it - the former especially.

 

[Slashy]

Of which roughly 0% make up the competitive Melee scene.

Convincing the larger populace is a different case. Project M still does have things going for it in that regard: Smash 64 stages and (potentially) revamped AI most notably. Ultimately, it comes down to those people disappointed in Brawl or who'd want an updated Smash being open to give it a shot. That's the larger concern. Because the final release isn't too likely to disappoint them, the former especially.

There is a difference between liking it and accepting it as a replacement to Melee, that's what I am getting at.

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

We shouldn't debating on this project's success and growth, the good thing is we just fixed one of the, if not the, biggest issure with Project M at the moment.

Wether or not the Melee/smash community accepts us easily or not, I don't know. But I do know if we market ourselves well (like getting a handfull of the biggest Melee names to promote it) then the project will be on the right track. This "On the right track" is what we should aim for. And at best we can only hope it gets us far.

To be blunt, I think the project's success is depends largely on how we advertize it to the commnunity.

 

[GP&B]

So, I take it none of the vids so far show LD fixed?

Yeah, I'd actually just like to see some videos testing out Melee tricks that are now possible or more viable because of the fix to LD. That'd be super hype.

 

[ETWIST51294]

I'm just happy I won't drop anymore combos because i miss L cancels or wavelands with Falcon.

 

[Kati]

Is backwards grabbing actually being looked into for reimplementation?

 

[Magus420]

I just got info on how landing detection was implemented. It's a really ****ty implementation that does the job, but will need a lot more polishing before it is ready, and it will need to be rewritten completely before the final version (It's good enough for the patch though).

I submitted a proposal for how to fix it, but I am not a brawl hacker, so I have no idea if my idea is possible at all, and neither does the dev I proposed it to, him not knowing ASM.

Excuse me?

Also, whoever told you that doesn't know what they're talking about. Nothing will need to be rewritten completely, as the main code changes exactly what needs to be changed (allowing the bottom stage collision point Y offset from TopN to be determined normally from the SCD bones' offsets instead of forced to 0). Allowing it to not be 0 just opens up a can of worms since the game often references the SCD bottom offset for all kinds of things where they should have had it looking at TopN Y offset, but since they are normally identical at all times in Brawl it didn't matter if it used the wrong one for something or wrote one directly onto the other. Most of the other codes that go with it correct those issues.

 

[Crispy4001]

There is a difference between liking it and accepting it as a replacement to Melee, that's what I am getting at.

Focusing on PM as a 'replacement' only turns this into a semantics debate. And to be frank, that discussion doesn't really matter, to anything. In my view it all boils down to one simple talking point: would a someone in question 'prefer to play' Project M to Melee or not.

That is the true judge of acceptance. Not this hullabaloo over replacement this, Sakurai's hand that, modders this, off-site audience that.

 

[Slashy]

Focusing on PM as a 'replacement' only turns this into a semantics debate. And to be frank, that discussion doesn't really matter, to anything. In my view it all boils down to one simple talking point: who's going to 'prefer to play' Project M to Melee, and who is not.

That is the true judge of acceptance. Not this hullabaloo over spiritual successor this, Sakurai's hand that, modders this, compeditive scene that.

Labeling P:M as a replacement would have made it very unpopular. I was just explaining why it was unlikely that it could absorb the Melee scene.

 

[Anth0ny]

my reaction to this newest blog post can be summed up in one image.

 

[ClinkStryphart]

Blog post makes me think Landing Detection perhaps?

 

[Evilagram]

Excuse me?

Also, whoever told you that doesn't know what they're talking about. Nothing will need to be rewritten completely, as the main code changes exactly what needs to be changed (allowing the bottom stage collision point Y offset from TopN to be determined normally from the SCD bones' offsets instead of forced to 0). Allowing it to not be 0 just opens up a can of worms since the game often references the SCD bottom offset for all kinds of things where they should have had it looking at TopN Y offset, but since they are normally identical at all times in Brawl it didn't matter if it used the wrong one for something or wrote one directly onto the other. Most of the other codes that go with it correct those issues.

Thank you very much. I was apparently given the wrong info. I am very glad that it is not being implemented the way I was told it was.

I was informed that what you did was delay the activation of the landing detection code until a few frames after the landing is actually detected, thus simulating correct landing detection in a shoddy way. (EDIT: Sorry, apparently I was given a layman's definition I apologize for ANY confusion caused, I probably should have kept my dirty ***** mouth closed.)

Unfortunately, I am having trouble understanding your explanation of how it works, do you think you could either post here, or send me a PM explaining the mechanics behind it? I know what TopN, SCD, and the other technical terms you used are, but the full way you explained it was slightly confusing.

Barring that, can you confirm that a finalized version of this code will work EXACTLY like melee landing detection?

 

[Ecks]

Someone (a dev) quick make a gif of Link's nair with dynamic Landing Detection!

lol type "landing detection" on google and the first link is pm related. :D

 

[Crispy4001]

I was just explaining why it was unlikely that it could absorb the Melee scene.

And most reasons you gave to support that argument (Sakurai not making it, no tournament sponorships, wary about modders, etc) don't speak to the the things the Melee scene at current would be most skeptical about.

And I also don't think you're giving proper credit to the bridges that Project M is already building with the Melee scene thus far. Landing Detection is like Project M's Golden Gate in that regard. The better it gets, the more skeptics will turn around.

 

[Rikana]

PM=Better than Melee
PM=Different than Melee by definition
PM=Different
therefore,
PM=Bad
PM=Worse than Melee

And this is a perfect logic that a lot of people will follow.

Can someone give this guy the power to control the internet?

 

[Crispy4001]

To play devils advocate... presuming that argument and building a strawman in its place isn't a healthy attitude either. We should just tackle that ignorance when/if it still comes.

 

[Rikana]

Thank you very much. I was apparently given the wrong info. I am very glad that it is not being implemented the way I was told it was.

I was informed that what you did was delay the activation of the landing detection code until a few frames after the landing is actually detected, thus simulating correct landing detection in a shoddy way. (EDIT: Sorry, apparently I was given a layman's definition I apologize for ANY confusion caused, I probably should have kept my dirty ***** mouth closed.)

Unfortunately, I am having trouble understanding your explanation of how it works, do you think you could either post here, or send me a PM explaining the mechanics behind it? I know what TopN, SCD, and the other technical terms you used are, but the full way you explained it was slightly confusing.

Barring that, can you confirm that a finalized version of this code will work EXACTLY like melee landing detection?

My interpretation would probably be useless since I don't know the definitions of the term or even have I heard of them before but.. for some reason, I seem to understand that. I just sort of pictured 0 = bottom of the feet. Whatever number, positive or negative, will be the part that's going to be detected as the landing point. Say.. +3 is the shins. LOL@ my interpretation and explanation. I have no idea how far off I am though. Regardless, at least I'm pretty sure I understood what was mentioned through my viewpoint.

 

[Spelt]

PM=Different
therefore,
PM=Bad

old news
everyone already found this out march 9th 2008.

 

[MonkUnit]

So, I take it none of the vids so far show LD fixed?

It isn't ready to be used fully, so no.

@kati, when we find the social fall backwards ledge grab range, we'll edit them.

 

[Evilagram]

In terms of the ongoing debate about Project M's acceptance among the smash community, my reply is simply not to bother with it for the time being.

It is definitely a topic we will have to deal with at a later date, but not now. For now we ought to keep this quiet. People who want us will seek us. We'll deal with these people when the project is finalized.

Things holding us back within the smash community revolve around doubt that a fan mod can do a better job than the original game. It does not matter if we claim not to try to be improving, that is the way we will be perceived, so the point must be dealt with on that level. We must persuade these people that being a fan mod does not mean we cannot do a good job.

This is best done, not by pointing out the obvious that counterstrike was a mod and was both great and successful (this would work in formal debate, but not in legitimately convincing people), but instead by asking them to give it a chance and consider what is possible beyond what the original devs intended that enables the game to have more depth than before.

Of course, remember who you are addressing, there are many people who oddly enough prefer brawl over melee or countless variations within both factions.

I believe that we could easily absorb a lot of the melee audience who were disappointed by brawl as a melee 2.0 and want brawl to be redeemed. I played one guy who plays brawl predominantly in project M and he loved it, he said it was like a blast from the past.

In general, things to encourage are open mindedness, willingness to try things out, willingness to consider alternative possibilities. Be calm and friendly. It's possible to convince, or at least make friendly anyone if you go into it with the right attitude.

 

[Vigilante]

I knew it was landing detection from the Falco pic right away. I beleive that the game is now officially better than Melee. I mean, there are tethers and stuff like that, but I'm very happy that you pushed the patch back for this.

I think that if you can show the Melee community that this game will haver everything Melee has and more, many can be attracted by Project M. I am one of those die-hard Melee fans who hated Brawl with a passion. Not everyone will join in, but I have seen it attract Melee players, and even some Brawlers due to some contents and character designs. I think that project M will be one of the most successful mods around, and probably the most successful console mod for a long time.

I put my faith in all of you when I first learned about this Project, and you went beyond my expectations. Thanks for your hard work and for sharing the fruits of your labour with us.

I won't go back to Melee after this, I think.

 

[Ecks]

old news
everyone already found this out march 9th 2008.

Project M is "better" than Melee because it practically IS Melee. It's like an expansion.

Brawl however...There should be a word to describe the changes to Brawl.

I'm still having a hard time understanding how Sakurai thought Melee was hard. Maybe a little fast, but hard? Really? They had the winning formula and just threw it out the window.

@Rikana

lol that power should be given to Magus.

 

[ETWIST51294]

melee is hard dude. Can you multi moonwalk and JC shine? What I didn't understand is how he thought that would effect anything but the competitive scene.

 

[Ecks]

I mean at a casual level. when I got Melee I was like 9 or 10. Apart from the gravity changes and the speed, everything was easy to learn. Especially since you could auto smash with the c-stick.

Edit: And like I said, this problem could have been fixed by altering the speed and even the camera a bit. I grew up playing Megaman X. Now THAT **** was hard.

 

[Starscream]

Edit: And like I said, this problem could have been fixed by altering the speed and even the camera a bit. I grew up playing Megaman X. Now THAT **** was hard.

Mega Man X isn't even that hard. Go play Mega Man 1. THAT is hard.

But yeah, I don't really get this Melee is hard business. At an advanced technical level it is but not at all on a casual level.

 

[Crispy4001]

Things holding us back within the smash community revolve around doubt that a fan mod can do a better job than the original game. It does not matter if we claim not to try to be improving, that is the way we will be perceived, so the point must be dealt with on that level. We must persuade these people that being a fan mod does not mean we cannot do a good job.

Is this really much of an issue anymore? Sure, the demo was met with skepticism within some sects, but even the harshest critics here weren't calling it a worthless endeavor or being dismissive of its future potential.

The coders working on PM have already proved their chops several times over. We waited an eternity just for that demo, which they've been actively improving on. Who on smashboards is questioning if they can do a good job at this point? Really, who?


I don't think there's a widespread bias in the Smash community, the Melee community, against Project M as you are implying. If Project M ends up as great as it hopes to be, these aren't going to be the hardest people to convince. Not by a long shot. It's the Redditors and GAF-ers and the like who are most likely to express distaste from presumptions.

 

[ETWIST51294]

Mega Man X isn't even that hard. Go play Mega Man 1. THAT is hard.

But yeah, I don't really get this Melee is hard business. At an advanced technical level it is but not at all on a casual level.

It's probably because I'm on that advanced level. lol I'm not talking about stupid casual play.

 

[Evilagram]

Is this really much of an issue anymore? Sure, the demo was met with skepticism within some sects, but even the harshest critics here weren't calling it a worthless endeavor or being dismissive of its future potential.

The coders working on PM have already proved their chops several times over. We waited an eternity just for that demo, which they've been actively improving on. Who on smashboards is questioning if they can do a good job at this point? Really, who?


I don't think there's a widespread bias in the Smash community, the Melee community, against Project M as you are implying. If Project M ends up as great as it hopes to be, these aren't going to be the hardest people to convince. Not by a long shot. It's the Redditors and GAF-ers and the like who are more likely to express distaste from their own presumptions.

Okay, sorry, I meant that that is ONE of the things revolved around. I forgot to write that.

Yes, doubt still exists in people's minds. I have had many people dismiss brawl mods out of hand simply by saying "Fanmod" and nothing more. Literally.

The point isn't whether their views are true or not, the point is persuading them to listen.

And I believe the topic was opposition within the smash community (meaning ALL people who play smash games, not necessarily anyone on this board), not the videogame community at large. I have things to say on that as well, and in general a lot of the same ideals apply.


The point is, inside and out of the smash community there are still those who recommend we go back to melee, claim we cannot do as good a job as a company with millions of dollars backing them, and dismiss smash entirely as a fighting game. An important thing to remember in dealing with ANY of these is that it is not important who is right or wrong as it is not a formal debate. The important thing is to try to persuade them to give brawl mods a chance and to go into things with a more open mind.

 

[Starscream]

It's probably because I'm on that advanced level. lol I'm not talking about stupid casual play.

But Sakurai isn't. Nor are the people he is referring to with that statement.

And Landing Detection, **** yeah. Good work Magus and team.

 

[bleyva]

wow. a monumental breakthrough and people still prefer to discuss ********, pointless arguments :/

 

[tera twin]

LD was fixed? that's pretty cool

 

[ETWIST51294]

But Sakurai isn't. Nor are the people he is referring to with that statement.

And Landing Detection, **** yeah. Good work Magus and team.

And that's why I said I dodn't understand the point of dumbing the game down when it effects nothing but competitive players.

 

[Crispy4001]

Yes, doubt still exists in people's minds. I have had many people dismiss brawl mods out of hand simply by saying "Fanmod" and nothing more. Literally.

The point isn't whether their views are true or not, the point is persuading them to listen.

And I believe the topic was opposition within the smash community (meaning ALL people who play smash games, not necessarily anyone on this board), not the videogame community at large. I have things to say on that as well, and in general a lot of the same ideals apply.

As far as sites or forums dedicated to Smash, the reaction has been mostly positive. Doubts are sometimes lingering but not dismissive of the potential, or the ability or knowledge of those involved.

Elsewhere, mostly negative. Not because they don't believe the PM team can't do it, but because trolls interject with a 'by tourney***s, for tourney***s' mentality. Many of them who prefer Brawl to Melee think Project M is stubborn because it doesn't conform to their preferences. The problem occurs mostly when a hivemind mentality takes over or some idiot tries to bring it about.

It's not really the idea that modders can't do as good of a job. It's more that Project M is a ******** idea to the most vocal minority of them, for what it hopes to do.

 

[Xebenkeck]

nice Ld is fixed, congrats you guys you've won the world. Mad Hype, this is going to be the greatest thing ever, you guys have already surpassed any expectations i've had, anything now is just sugar and berries. again congrats congrats, and thank you.

 

[Evilagram]

And that's why I said I dodn't understand the point of dumbing the game down when it effects nothing but competitive players.

No, he dumbed it down so as to affect ALL players.

Here's what Sakurai dislikes, he dislikes competition. He dislikes it because he dislikes the attitude that the weaker player is a loser and is weak. He instead decided to balance the game in a different way than the way we think of it. He decided to make it a wacky crazy game where anything can happen. He wanted to make it so the good players and bad players would be put at the same level. He wanted it so the winner would salute the loser for dying in such an absurd fashion and nobody would be rude to anyone for not being good at the game. he wanted a game where everyone could sit down and not really care about what happens, but just have fun enjoying the game.

I personally think he underestimates the nature of competitive spirit. I think that people do not have to be cruel to each other as winner and loser. I think that we can have more fun in a competitive context playing as equals than a game that denies the skilled players the challenge they sought or the chance to test their skills.