Project M Social Thread

[Evilagram]

As far as sites or forums dedicated to Smash, the reaction has been mostly positive. Doubts are sometimes lingering but not dismissive of the potential, or the ability or knowledge of those involved.

Elsewhere, mostly negative. Not because they don't believe the PM team can't do it, but because trolls interject with a 'by tourney***s, for tourney***s' mentality. Many of them who prefer Brawl to Melee think Project M is stubborn because it doesn't conform to their preferences. The problem occurs mostly when a hivemind mentality takes over or some idiot tries to bring it about.

It's not really the idea that modders can't do as good of a job. It's more that Project M is a ******** idea to the most vocal minority of them, for what it hopes to do.

A lot of people within the smash community hold those ideas too, and I don't just mean the online community of smash dedicated sites. Some people don't believe smash should be competitive, both people who play it as one of their regulars and those who don't play it except rarely.

That or maybe I just happen to have met a lot of these people? I mean, that's possible too that I've met a bunch of people from a fringe group.

And the argument that modders can't do as good a job is one I see parroted a LOT on these other sites outside the smash community.

I think we can definitely convince these people, but I am warning that it is difficult.

 

[ETWIST51294]

No, he dumbed it down so as to affect ALL players.

Here's what Sakurai dislikes, he dislikes competition. He dislikes it because he dislikes the attitude that the weaker player is a loser and is weak. He instead decided to balance the game in a different way than the way we think of it. He decided to make it a wacky crazy game where anything can happen. He wanted to make it so the good players and bad players would be put at the same level. He wanted it so the winner would salute the loser for dying in such an absurd fashion and nobody would be rude to anyone for not being good at the game. he wanted a game where everyone could sit down and not really care about what happens, but just have fun enjoying the game.

I personally think he underestimates the nature of competitive spirit. I think that people do not have to be cruel to each other as winner and loser. I think that we can have more fun in a competitive context playing as equals than a game that denies the skilled players the challenge they sought or the chance to test their skills.

All I have to say is, casual players can't tell the difference between brawl and Melee, I even had a friend tell me he thought brawl was faster than melee. I do not agree that it effects the casual level because the casual level doesn't know what they're doing regardless.

 

[Crispy4001]

wow. a monumental breakthrough and people still prefer to discuss ********, pointless arguments :/

As if landing detection also hasn't been monumentally discussed to death in this thread.

There's not much left to say about it, other than congrats and HYPE.
Which is good and purposeful, but not much of a discussion.

 

[Evilagram]

All I have to say is, casual players can't tell the difference between brawl and Melee, I even had a friend tell me he thought brawl was faster than melee. I do not agree that it effects the casual level because the casual level doesn't know what they're doing regardless.

Okay, it does not affect players who are THAT casual. I used to be an anti-tourney*** but I still disliked brawl on release.

 

[Starscream]

And that's why I said I dodn't understand the point of dumbing the game down when it effects nothing but competitive players.

The point of contention within his statement is that most people think Sakurai is nuts for even thinking casual Melee is "hard" because it's not.

And I completely agree with you, all the dumbing and slowing down of Brawl affected competitive Melee players whereas casual players wouldn't have even noticed.

 

[ETWIST51294]

Okay, it does not affect players who are THAT casual. I used to be an anti-tourney*** but I still disliked brawl on release.

Since you were one of those *******, can you PLEASE tell me why they think like that? How in the **** is a "tourny-***" effecting you in anyway? I ****ing hate dudes who say that.

 

[Crispy4001]

A lot of people within the smash community hold those ideas too, and I don't just mean the online community of smash dedicated sites. Some people don't believe smash should be competitive, both people who play it as one of their regulars and those who don't play it except rarely.

....I think we can definitely convince these people, but I am warning that it is difficult.

That's who I was referring to. Those who think the idea of Project M is stupid can't be convinced. We shouldn't try to.

Any outreach is an effort to spread the word to those who don't know about it but could be interested. Or who haven't followed it in some time.

And the argument that modders can't do as good a job is one I see parroted a LOT on these other sites outside the smash community.

This argument only gets made when a game is thought of as a genuine classic, who's greatness transcends directly from its creative direction. If they think that way about Brawl, then no Brawl mod could ever appeal to them.

 

[Evilagram]

Since you were one of those *******, can you PLEASE tell me why they think like that? How in the **** is a "tourny-***" effecting you in anyway? I ****ing hate dudes who say that.

They dislike the perceived notion that we are so obsessive over victory that we cannot have fun playing a game. They dislike that we are trying to create a game that is competitive out of one that is blatantly filled with random unbalancing elements.

They cite that things like items and weird stages make the game more fun.

They are the type of people that play on timed mode because it means that nobody has to sit out until the next round if they run out of lives, despite it being less ostensibly fair in a competitive sense.

They turn items on because they feel that those add variation to the game.

They're the type of people who dislike those fellows who are like, "NO ITEMS, FOX ONLY, FINAL DESTINATION!", and don't really take notice of the fact that there are many many legal stages, and project like this enable all characters to be played equally.

Mostly the idea was that tourney***s were guys opposed to having fun just playing the game, and using all the features available.

 

[Evilagram]

That's who I was referring to. Those who think the idea of Project M is stupid can't be convinced. We shouldn't try to.

Any outreach is an effort to spread the word to those who don't know about it but could be interested. Or who haven't followed it in some time.

Oh but they can be convinced, and I have convinced them before. They're people who would be willing to play, but are skeptical of our "product". Why ignore potential fans?


EDIT: Sorry, accidentally double posted.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Evilagram, another word for those kinds of people is "ignorant".

"Idiots" would also fit.

And use multi-quote next time.

 

[Evilagram]

Sorry for not accepting that people are hopeless.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

No apology necessary, just pointing out that it is by no fault of tournament players that there is a group of casual players that look down upon us.

Because, as you explained perfectly in your last post, anyone who hates competitive players is both ignorant of the competitive scene and unintelligent because of it.

 

[Evilagram]

I don't think these people are unintelligent necessarily. I mean, it is to a degree a different viewpoint. There is intelligence, then there is stubbornness and refusal to accept something, which even the most intelligent people can become stuck in.

These people WOULD be in with us, but it is a matter of letting them see the game the way we do. Or alternatively, helping them understand that this version of the game is more fair and makes their favorite characters even better.

 

[stelzig]

Okay, sorry, I meant that that is ONE of the things revolved around. I forgot to write that.

Yes, doubt still exists in people's minds. I have had many people dismiss brawl mods out of hand simply by saying "Fanmod" and nothing more. Literally.

The point isn't whether their views are true or not, the point is persuading them to listen.

And I believe the topic was opposition within the smash community (meaning ALL people who play smash games, not necessarily anyone on this board), not the videogame community at large. I have things to say on that as well, and in general a lot of the same ideals apply.


The point is, inside and out of the smash community there are still those who recommend we go back to melee, claim we cannot do as good a job as a company with millions of dollars backing them, and dismiss smash entirely as a fighting game. An important thing to remember in dealing with ANY of these is that it is not important who is right or wrong as it is not a formal debate. The important thing is to try to persuade them to give brawl mods a chance and to go into things with a more open mind.

I think another important point here is just that the motivation to finding something to replace melee (or play alongside i guess...) isn't that big for some people. At least that goes for me. There's nothing from PM yet that I have been told about that has made me hyped about it (enough to care), and it would be up to the rest of my community to really pick it up for me to be particularely interested in it

Right now I can't really think of anything else than a proper online mode being added to a new smash game (mod or not) to really grab my attention.

 

[Evilagram]

I think another important point here is just that the motivation to finding something to replace melee (or play alongside i guess...) isn't that big for some people. At least that goes for me. There's nothing from PM yet that I have been told about that has made me hyped about it, and it would be up to the rest of my community to really pick it up for me to be particularely interested in it

I left my copy of melee at home, so I won't be playing that until college is over. We're excited at the amount of progress that modding has made. We still do not have a product that is better than melee overall yet, but many of us are excited at the possibility. I personally enjoy the fact that every character will be perfectly viable.

 

[stelzig]

Yeh, I get that and I played a few games with people in the demo too. But my point still is that people might just question the project itself with "do we really need this?" opposed to just being close-minded

 

[Evilagram]

Yeh, I get that and I played a few games with people in the demo too. But my point still is that people might just question the project itself with "do we really need this?" opposed to just being close-minded

Try viewing it this way, the project is being made no matter who tries to stop it.

If the final result is really better than melee, then why not play it?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Because the number of players will be smaller, nostalgia, etc...

 

[GPDP]

Because the number of players will be smaller, nostalgia, etc...

That's kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy there, isn't it? People won't play because less people will play, which means less people will play, which means...

 

[jahkzheng]

It's funny when word's like "ignorance" and "close-minded" are used to describe people who simply "think differently" than one's self... ironic

Different stokes for different folks, as "they" say. You can't expect everyone to think the same... and how interesting of a world would it be if we did? Specifically (In regards to the mod), I recommend not going on a PM crusade. Just play with the people you enjoy playing with, and introduce it to people not because you're looking for converts, lol, but because you honestly want someone to have fun with you, and let the game do what it's gonna do.

But that's just how I feel of course xD


Edit:
Oh yeah, great job with cracking LD PM team...

 

[Grim Tuesday]

@GPDP
Yeah

@jahkzheng
No, I used ignorant to describe a group of people who are "lacking knowledge or awareness in general; uneducated or unsophisticated", not those who have a different opinion to me.

 

[Evilagram]

Because the number of players will be smaller, nostalgia, etc...

Carry an SD card on you. Hell, the Wii is only a bit bulkier than a laptop. I've literally carried a Wii to someone else's place because he did not want homebrew running on his Wii.

If you get the people you play with to play Project M, and those people get their friends to play it, then eventually everyone will be playing it.

I'm a bit of a nostalgia*** too, hell, you can skin brawl to look basically like melee. A lot of melee style mods are out for basically every character.

A friend of mine said that the physics alone were like a blast from the past for him.

 

[jahkzheng]

@jahkzheng
No, I used ignorant to describe a group of people who are "lacking knowledge or awareness in general; uneducated or unsophisticated", not those who have a different opinion to me.

Then just people unaware of facts?

Lol, that can get a bit sketchy

Carry an SD card on you. Hell, the Wii is only a bit bulkier than a laptop. I've literally carried a Wii to someone else's place because he did not want homebrew running on his Wii.

If you get the people you play with to play Project M, and those people get their friends to play it, then eventually everyone will be playing it.

I'm a bit of a nostalgia*** too, hell, you can skin brawl to look basically like melee. A lot of melee style mods are out for basically every character.

A friend of mine said that the physics alone were like a blast from the past for him.

Sounds familiar. Pretty much all my friends are casual players and none of them were interested in even hacking their Wiis. In fact, I'd say I'm mostly casual seeing as 90% of my playing is online, albeit against some fairly competitive people.

And also, true nostalgia for me is if they could skin and vertex Smash64 to Brawl or PM... but that sounds like an entirely different project. (Heh, guess it's pretty casual of me to be getting more nostalgia out of appearances than physics.)

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I live in Australia, it isn't that simple, Evilagram.

 

[Evilagram]

It's funny when word's like "ignorance" and "close-minded" are used to describe people who simply "think differently" than one's self... ironic

Different stokes for different folks, as "they" say. You can't expect everyone to think the same... and how interesting of a world would it be if we did? Specifically (In regards to the mod), I recommend not going on a PM crusade. Just play with the people you enjoy playing with, and introduce it to people not because you're looking for converts, lol, but because you honestly want someone to have fun with you, and let the game do what it's gonna do.

But that's just how I feel of course xD


Edit:
Oh yeah, great job with cracking LD PM team...

It is to a degree ignorance and close-mindedness. They're people who would otherwise enjoy this mod.

Of course, there are some people out there who have more legitimate reasons to dislike a mod like this, namely those rare ones out there who think the same way as sakurai. For some people they are not seeking the same things as us, and our project can legitimately be undesirable. They are few and far between however, and generally not worth concerning over for the purposes of this argument.

The thing is, most of the people in opposition to us would definitely have fun playing this mod. They are restricted from doing that by their own mindset that seeks to find holes in all they can just to uphold their existing worldview. It's something that we are all prone to. By going on a "crusade" we are enabling these people to have new experiences. If we cannot convince them, then it should be because they have different objectives in their fun than us, not because the project is lacking in any way, which is what they expect of us.

This project stands for a lot of things that nearly all players want in their games. It stands for fairness, it stands for innovation on the old melee moveset and tactics, it stands for competition between players, it stands for depth and skill, it stands for variation and novelty. These are things that most to nearly all people want from their game, including many of our detractors.

 

[Ghostbone]

I live in Australia, it isn't that simple, Evilagram.

Dam PAL

 

[Evilagram]

Sounds familiar. Pretty much all my friends are casual players and none of them were interested in even hacking their Wiis. In fact, I'd say I'm mostly casual seeing as 90% of my playing is online, albeit against some fairly competitive people.

And also, true nostalgia for me is if they could skin and vertex Smash64 to Brawl or PM... but that sounds like an entirely different project. (Heh, guess it's pretty casual of me to be getting more nostalgia out of appearances than physics.)

Hey, try checking out the brawl64 project in the code section. It's slow going, but its on its way.

Hey, I'd say the graphics are more nostalgia fuel than the gameplay myself. Or really whatever best conveys the "feel" of the game.

If you are a casual, Project M makes the game fair, so you aren't at a disadvantage with your favorite character against tourney***s using top tier characters.

I live in Australia, it isn't that simple, Evilagram.

I'm sorry, I do not understand how situations are different in Australia exactly. I don't know exactly how limited videogame access is there, although I hear it is bad.


All that I know is that in my dorm a friend and I were playing Project M and we got two passerby to join in just tonight. We get people to join in all the time.

 

[jahkzheng]

It is to a degree ignorance and close-mindedness. They're people who would otherwise enjoy this mod.

Of course, there are some people out there who have more legitimate reasons to dislike a mod like this, namely those rare ones out there who think the same way as sakurai. For some people they are not seeking the same things as us, and our project can legitimately be undesirable. They are few and far between however, and generally not worth concerning over for the purposes of this argument.

The thing is, most of the people in opposition to us would definitely have fun playing this mod. They are restricted from doing that by their own mindset that seeks to find holes in all they can just to uphold their existing worldview. It's something that we are all prone to. By going on a "crusade" we are enabling these people to have new experiences. If we cannot convince them, then it should be because they have different objectives in their fun than us, not because the project is lacking in any way, which is what they expect of us.

This project stands for a lot of things that nearly all players want in their games. It stands for fairness, it stands for innovation on the old melee moveset and tactics, it stands for competition between players, it stands for depth and skill, it stands for variation and novelty. These are things that most to nearly all people want from their game, including many of our detractors.

Yeah, I've agreed with many of your points. I was just throwing the obvious out there - that you can't expect to go out pleasing everyone, and you can't chalk it up to them being close-minded all the time. But you've shown you know what I mean, and you've specifically mentioned those that would otherwise enjoy it if they'd just give it a chance. Trouble is, it can be hard to identify those people if they won't even try it, or dismiss it with very little play to those that maybe actually aren't enjoying it - as crazy as that may seem to many people here lol. However, I can say imho... anyone that plays smash certainly qualifies as a viable candidate for one that might "enjoy PM if they gave it a chance". And that accounts for the vast, vast majority of people on SWF.

 

[Ghostbone]

I'm sorry, I do not understand how situations are different in Australia exactly. I don't know exactly how limited videogame access is there, although I hear it is bad.

It's just that it requires a lot more effort to get P:M to run than just putting it on your SD card and going to the stage builder. (due to different game versions)

Which would deter a lot of people from playing it.

 

[jahkzheng]

Hey, try checking out the brawl64 project in the code section. It's slow going, but its on its way.

Hey, I'd say the graphics are more nostalgia fuel than the gameplay myself. Or really whatever best conveys the "feel" of the game.

If you are a casual, Project M makes the game fair, so you aren't at a disadvantage with your favorite character against tourney***s using top tier characters.

Looked into the brawl64 project a long time ago... wouldn't hurt to check in I guess

I'd just rather have all the mechanics of PM, for instance, than Smash64... and experience the nostalgia through it's presentation graphically. Although a brawl mod to 64, complete with no side Bs and massive hitstun would be cool as well, and the graphical changes I described earlier would fit right in.

And, as far as being "casual" goes. Just based on how many of the people on this thread present themselves, I'd say I guess I'm more casual than most. But I don't really consider myself casual by definition... I've invested too much of my thought and time into the game lol.

 

[Evilagram]

It's just that it requires a lot more effort to get P:M to run than just putting it on your SD card and going to the stage builder. (due to different game versions)

Which would deter a lot of people from playing it.

Ah, I see. I guess we still don't have a working PAL version of most codes yet either.

Moving your Wii to another location is still not hard, albeit it requires planning, unlike simply having an SD card on hand. Of course, I'm the type that's used to carrying around a laptop or sketchbook.

Yeah, I've agreed with many of your points. I was just throwing the obvious out there - that you can't expect to go out pleasing everyone, and you can't chalk it up to them being close-minded all the time. But you've shown you know what I mean, and you've specifically mentioned those that would otherwise enjoy it if they'd just give it a chance. Trouble is, it can be hard to identify those people if they won't even try it, or dismiss it with very little play to those that maybe actually aren't enjoying it - as crazy as that may seem to many people here lol. However, I can say imho... anyone that plays smash certainly qualifies as a viable candidate for one that might "enjoy PM if they gave it a chance". And that accounts for the vast, vast majority of people on SWF.

And I think that accounts for a vast majority of the people who are our detractors too, really. I think a lot of them have enjoyed smash in the past. I think that the only people we'll never really convince are those who were never interested in smash at all, like FPS fans, but they're a nonfactor. They're not trolling our threads. They're doing a different thing entirely and are not our concern.

Again, I think the majority of these trolls have enjoyed smash before, and would again with Project M

Looked into the brawl64 project a long time ago... wouldn't hurt to check in I guess

I'd just rather have all the mechanics of PM, for instance, than Smash64... and experience the nostalgia through it's presentation graphically. Although a brawl mod to 64, complete with no side Bs and massive hitstun would be cool as well, and the graphical changes I described earlier would fit right in.

And, as far as being "casual" goes. Just based on how many of the people on this thread present themselves, I'd say I guess I'm more casual than most. But I don't really consider myself casual by definition... I've invested too much of my thought and time into the game lol.

Ah, I see. Well, I think it's definitely possible to make smash 64 type models and we all know it's easy to just stick textures and vertexes on characters. Try asking around some of the texture and vertex modding communities.

 

[jahkzheng]

And I think that accounts for a vast majority of the people who are our detractors too, really. I think a lot of them have enjoyed smash in the past. I think that the only people we'll never really convince are those who were never interested in smash at all, like FPS fans, but they're a nonfactor. They're not trolling our threads. They're doing a different thing entirely and are not our concern.

Again, I think the majority of these trolls have enjoyed smash before, and would again with Project M

And like many "trolls", they could just be trolling.

I'd also like to add that there are many melee fan's behind this game, but saying "brawl sucks" isn't the best way to attract brawl players to PM xD.

Ah, I see. Well, I think it's definitely possible to make smash 64 type models and we all know it's easy to just stick textures and vertexes on characters. Try asking around some of the texture and vertex modding communities.

Would be great fun to see 64 bit Melee and Brawl characters... retro...

 

[Evilagram]

And like many "trolls", they could just be trolling.

I'd also like to add that there are many melee fan's behind this game, but saying "brawl sucks" isn't the best way to attract brawl players to PM xD.

Very possible on the places I've argued this before. However it was helpful to argue with trolls because it gave me greater insight on what stands in the way of wider acceptance. I could see more of their points and more of how to defuse them.

Would be great fun to see 64 bit Melee and Brawl characters... retro...

Ow. Sorry, the N64 has a 64 bit processor, but the color is still 32 bit like everything else (technically 24 bit, because the last 8 bits are devoted to just transparency and nothing else). Mistakes in bittages annoy me. I'm sure you could find someone willing to help out on Kitty Corp.

 

[stelzig]

Try viewing it this way, the project is being made no matter who tries to stop it.

If the final result is really better than melee, then why not play it?

Like I said - If people in my community decides to pick it up, then maybe i'll be interested. Right now nothing appeals to me particularely. So to me it wouldn't really be better per say. Except for stages maybe, that's probably the biggest point project m has in my book.
As for the version problem I have an NTSC copy myself, and i'm pretty sure there's at least 3 other NTSC versions in the rather small danish community so that part wouldn't be much of a problem to me.

If I see a good simulation of melee physics (i'm sure you agree the demo doesn't feel quite like melee), and there's alot of interest showing in my own community (as well as all of europe preferably), and there's only positive changes (to me), then yes I will play project M. But yes I am also quite sceptic about this happening, and I don't care too much if it doesn't. I'll wish the developers good luck though, their dedication and work on this is quite impressive.

Edit:

That's kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy there, isn't it? People won't play because less people will play, which means less people will play, which means...

And yes this is true, but it goes back to the question of if there is a demand for this in the first place? I am as described above among one of those people that will play if the interest from others is there. But if the interest isn't anywhere at all, then that's just how it is... Problem? If people aren't demanding something then you can't expect them to make an effort in making it popular.

Of course if you are starting to get bored of melee and really want more/new characters and stages, then this is a godsend.

 

[jahkzheng]

Very possible on the places I've argued this before. However it was helpful to argue with trolls because it gave me greater insight on what stands in the way of wider acceptance. I could see more of their points and more of how to defuse them.

Trolls having legit points?! Unheard of
But yeah, I could see that would at least let you understand better what potential sticking points could be... however illogical they might be, considering the source.

Ow. Sorry, the N64 has a 64 bit processor, but the color is still 32 bit like everything else (technically 24 bit, because the last 8 bits are devoted to just transparency and nothing else). Mistakes in bittages annoy me. I'm sure you could find someone willing to help out on Kitty Corp.

As long as they could make it look 64 bit, that would be cool. And I bet they would be quite easy to model... outside of making them function in game. Maybe I'll check KC later. I'm also pretty familiar with it from my texture hacking days - the stuff they do now is so beyond me at this point, especially since I stopped caring about working with textures two years ago.

 

[Evilagram]

Trolls having legit points?! Unheard of
But yeah, I could see that would at least let you understand better what potential sticking points could be... however illogical they might be, considering the source.

As long as they could make it look 64 bit, that would be cool. And I bet they would be quite easy to model... outside of making them function in game. Maybe I'll check KC later. I'm also pretty familiar with it from my texture hacking days - the stuff they do now is so beyond me at this point, especially since I stopped caring about working with textures two years ago.

It's not whether they have good points or not, it's what their mistaken points are. I'm also not just looking at it from a smash community perspective, but in the wider lens of fighting game communities and people who generally play videogames.

(point of my last post was that the graphics on the n64 were not 64 bit, they were 32 bit, because nothing can go higher than 32 bit at all, because that's the standard the industry decided on because the human eye can't perceive much more than 32 bit.)

Like I said - If people in my community decides to pick it up, then maybe i'll be interested. Right now nothing appeals to me particularely. So to me it wouldn't really be better per say. Except for stages maybe, that's probably the biggest point project m has in my book.
As for the version problem I have an NTSC copy myself, and i'm pretty sure there's at least 3 other NTSC versions in the rather small danish community so that part wouldn't be much of a problem to me.

If I see a good simulation of melee physics (i'm sure you agree the demo doesn't feel quite like melee), and there's alot of interest showing in my own community (as well as all of europe preferably), and there's only positive changes (to me), then yes I will play project M. But yes I am also quite sceptic about this happening, and I don't care too much if it doesn't. I'll wish the developers good luck though, their dedication and work on this is quite impressive.

The landing detection is the primary thing making it feel off. Otherwise it is identical.

They'll pick it up if you give it to them. They may require persuasion, but that's not a fault of theirs or the mod's. It's just human nature that we're all a bit thickheaded sometimes.

I'd advise trying it out for yourself for fun and trying to introduce it to friends when a PAL release is out.

And yes this is true, but it goes back to the question of if there is a demand for this in the first place? I am as described above among one of those people that will play if the interest from others is there. But if the interest isn't anywhere at all, then that's just how it is... Problem? If people aren't demanding something then you can't expect them to make an effort in making it popular.

Of course if you are starting to get bored of melee and really want more/new characters and stages, then this is a godsend.

I can play melee forever, but that does not mean that I do not like new characters and new stages. I LOVE new characters and new stages.

Frankly, Project M is a lot like receiving everything I felt I was promised with brawl, along with interest for the wait. Not to mention that the anticipation is fun too.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I'm happy that we can discuss this without trolling and flaming

 

[Evilagram]

It's all a matter of being calm and arguing rationally.

 

[GHNeko]

I was gonna say that this thread turned full-******, but some how, through an act of our holy god, Sakurai, the thread managed to fix its own self up.

wtf @ P:M thread evolving


Also

@ LD

*yawn*

 

[Alses]

So... When is the project M dojo coming back up? It keeps saying site temporarily unavailable to me... Also I'm not sure if Shanus received my PM so... Can any of the hexers in Project: M Help me with what I requested here? : http://forums.kc-mm.com/index.php?topic=20872.0