Project M Social Thread

[ajajayjay]

noticed from the stream that dk no longer goes into special fall after giant punch...
Thanks guys =D

 

[kaizo13]

Please stop posting here

hmm....you haven't posted in this thread since the 13th. and what do you know, that also was an attack towards me.

it seems like you only post in this thread to flame people, so then........who really is the one that should stop posting here?

i don't even know who you are bro, but u seem to have something against me. So if you wanna settle it, go ahead and private message me instead. keep your childish non-sense out of this thread. You are not contributing to the project at all

 

[Evilagram]

Quick question, what PR plans do we have for this? Evidence has shown that just posting this to other websites will fail. Inevitable responses are, "Go play melee.", "You think you can do a better job than the game's creator?", "Smash is not a real fighting game, Smash is a party game", "Why can't you just have fun playing video games?"

I do not claim that these are right, but they are points of view that must regrettably be addressed. Addressed with something other than, "If you don't like it, don't play it", or claiming that these outside people are close-minded and not worth bothering with.

 

[ETWIST51294]

Who

****ing

cares?

 

[MonkUnit]

We have already addressed the "why don't you just play melee instead? Question.

Project M has:
More characters than melée did
More stages than melee did
A more balanced roster
Lower tiers have better chances against high tiers unlike melee's low tiers that had hard times with top tiers

 

[kaizo13]

"If they enjoy Brawl, great! But, I ask them to keep an open mind about trying out this mod. We aren’t pushing it down their throats, but I think we offer a ton of new, professional, and most importantly fun content that any player can enjoy. "

-Shanus

so yeah, don't worry about it

 

[Cubelarooso]

Addressed with something other than, "If you don't like it, don't play it", or claiming that these outside people are close-minded and not worth bothering with.

Why?
Haters gonna hate. If they don't like it, we don't have to bother with them.

 

[Evilagram]

I apologize for the long post in advance. I have a lot to say on this topic, even more than this post contains, in regards to the specifics of our position within the video game, fighting game, and smash communities, and how we can alleviate such problems.



To me, it is more a matter of a split fan base on top of a split fan base.

I am not advocating forcing this down anyone's throats, I am advocating everyone to remove their hands from everyone else's throats, so that we may all stop strangling one another.

Go check the "Project M on other sites" thread. Note how very nearly everywhere we were met with opposition.

You can say, "Haters gonna hate", but at the end of the day, that does not make the world any better of a place.

We have many groups opposing us, and only ourselves to rely on. We can throw up our hands and say that they are irredeemable, or we can calmly try to come to terms with them.

M0nkUn1t, thank you for answering my question in a literal sense rather than dismissing it out of hand. You raise a very valid point. Project M in its complete state, will be the best game in the Super Smash Brothers series. This is a fact.

However, true or not, people have reason to dispute this. They think we waste our efforts on what is perhaps a hopeless task. Or that we waste efforts on something which did not need improving. Or that we waste our efforts in arrogance, that we cannot accomplish better than what Sakurai has. Or that we waste our efforts in that it is not what the creator wanted. Or that we waste our efforts in that we seek to remove what made the game fun.

None of these points are true, none of them are what we stand for, but they are many different instances of public opinion coming from roughly the same demographic, those who like Smash. This is not minding the others that oppose us, for different principles.

Now you can turn a blind eye to them, call them close-minded, say you don't care with absolute force, but that is turning away people who could be our allies. People who could carry the final product to great heights.


Of course, this is not a problem that we immediately face, nor one that we should immediately face. Before dealing with it, we should have a final product in our hands, or one that is very close to final. However it is one which we must eventually face.

Since it is unlikely that you care much for helping the people who oppose our project, what about all the "untapped" people worldwide who wish something like this existed? The people who have no idea that Wii hacking exists, let alone a wonderful mod like this?

I remember when I was first informed of brawl hacking. I knew it was possible, and easy to hack the Wii at the time, and I had already done it, really for novelty's sake, but long after I lost interest, I heard someone tell me that they were messing with a brawl iso, to put textures on it. Upon hearing this, I asked if there were some sort of code to make brawl work like melee. He had never heard of one, but this lead to me compiling together gecko codes in the hopes of making something close to melee, and eventually finding Brawl+.

I loved brawl+ very much. It enabled me to master ganondorf, who I picked up after that ganonhand video. He's now one of my mains, and I was delighted at his inclusion and treatment in P:M. Since then, I have introduced Brawl+ and P:M to people who had no idea any of this existed, and they loved it. They've expressed to me their joy over playing these mods many times.

The idea here is, making people like that happy. That is something that cannot be accomplished if we ignore our adversaries. There are so many many people who could help us out, but if we ignore them, we leave many more people without this wonder that the great brawl hackers have created.

So I think we could use some thought on our PR campaign for the future. Not now, for a project in its infancy, but for a time when it is ready.

 

[JediKnightTemplar]

I apologize for the long post in advance. I have a lot to say on this topic, even more than this post contains, in regards to the specifics of our position within the video game, fighting game, and smash communities, and how we can alleviate such problems.



To me, it is more a matter of a split fan base on top of a split fan base.

I am not advocating forcing this down anyone's throats, I am advocating everyone to remove their hands from everyone else's throats, so that we may all stop strangling one another.

Go check the "Project M on other sites" thread. Note how very nearly everywhere we were met with opposition.

You can say, "Haters gonna hate", but at the end of the day, that does not make the world any better of a place.

We have many groups opposing us, and only ourselves to rely on. We can throw up our hands and say that they are irredeemable, or we can calmly try to come to terms with them.

M0nkUn1t, thank you for answering my question in a literal sense rather than dismissing it out of hand. You raise a very valid point. Project M in its complete state, will be the best game in the Super Smash Brothers series. This is a fact.

However, true or not, people have reason to dispute this. They think we waste our efforts on what is perhaps a hopeless task. Or that we waste efforts on something which did not need improving. Or that we waste our efforts in arrogance, that we cannot accomplish better than what Sakurai has. Or that we waste our efforts in that it is not what the creator wanted. Or that we waste our efforts in that we seek to remove what made the game fun.

None of these points are true, none of them are what we stand for, but they are many different instances of public opinion coming from roughly the same demographic, those who like Smash. This is not minding the others that oppose us, for different principles.

Now you can turn a blind eye to them, call them close-minded, say you don't care with absolute force, but that is turning away people who could be our allies. People who could carry the final product to great heights.


Of course, this is not a problem that we immediately face, nor one that we should immediately face. Before dealing with it, we should have a final product in our hands, or one that is very close to final. However it is one which we must eventually face.

Since it is unlikely that you care much for helping the people who oppose our project, what about all the "untapped" people worldwide who wish something like this existed? The people who have no idea that Wii hacking exists, let alone a wonderful mod like this?

I remember when I was first informed of brawl hacking. I knew it was possible, and easy to hack the Wii at the time, and I had already done it, really for novelty's sake, but long after I lost interest, I heard someone tell me that they were messing with a brawl iso, to put textures on it. Upon hearing this, I asked if there were some sort of code to make brawl work like melee. He had never heard of one, but this lead to me compiling together gecko codes in the hopes of making something close to melee, and eventually finding Brawl+.

I loved brawl+ very much. It enabled me to master ganondorf, who I picked up after that ganonhand video. He's now one of my mains, and I was delighted at his inclusion and treatment in P:M. Since then, I have introduced Brawl+ and P:M to people who had no idea any of this existed, and they loved it. They've expressed to me their joy over playing these mods many times.

The idea here is, making people like that happy. That is something that cannot be accomplished if we ignore our adversaries. There are so many many people who could help us out, but if we ignore them, we leave many more people without this wonder that the great brawl hackers have created.

So I think we could use some thought on our PR campaign for the future. Not now, for a project in its infancy, but for a time when it is ready.

I agree with you 100%. If we don't promote this mod properly the mod will never gain acceptance. The demo especially is something we don't want to show to other sites, let them come here for that. I remember when I showed my cousins the demo they were infuriated with it, not only because their mains weren't there, but also because the fact that I told them items would glitch up. This isn't what we want to show casuals. We want to show casuals that P:M has more stages and (someday) more and better balanced characters than Brawl. As soon as they see that side of the mod, they will flock to it like crack addicts to their local drug dealer. Our promotions outside this website need to say that "Hey, we have more stages and more characters. When this is released, you'll abandon Brawl forever", with more competitive gameplay as a footnote. If we simply brus them off, as you said, this mod will never truly flourish.

 

[Radian]

Well when you're told to go play Melee when playing P:M, just put on your trollface and tell the SSF4 players to go play SF2 on the SNES.

 

[Slashy]

noticed from the stream that dk no longer goes into special fall after giant punch...
Thanks guys =D

That was actually done way way back in Brawl+

I agree with you 100%. If we don't promote this mod properly the mod will never gain acceptance. The demo especially is something we don't want to show to other sites, let them come here for that. I remember when I showed my cousins the demo they were infuriated with it, not only because their mains weren't there, but also because the fact that I told them items would glitch up. This isn't what we want to show casuals. We want to show casuals that P:M has more stages and (someday) more and better balanced characters than Brawl. As soon as they see that side of the mod, they will flock to it like crack addicts to their local drug dealer. Our promotions outside this website need to say that "Hey, we have more stages and more characters. When this is released, you'll abandon Brawl forever", with more competitive gameplay as a footnote. If we simply brus them off, as you said, this mod will never truly flourish.

Some people just don't like Melee, or some people like the moves characters had in Brawl or in previous Smash games. I believe that things like removing the Pokemon Trainer, or drastically changing the way characters function from previous Smash games may turn them off. Casuals aren't going to care if you're doing this for competitive reasons, they're going to care that their favourite strategy/move from Smash 64/Melee/Brawl isn't possible anymore.

 

[GHNeko]

Well when you're told to go play Melee when playing P:M, just put on your trollface and tell the SSF4 players to go play SF2 on the SNES.

Nah. Tell them to go play Vanilla SF4.

 

[Jekku]

Whenever I start project m the screen goes black and white (I'm from europe), I've tried 3 different tvs which all support 60hz, I've tried setting the 60hz from the wii menu and I've even tried the deflicker trick but the game is still in black and white. The strange thing is that project M has worked before on every tv I've tried. The game stopped working then I played Big Brain Academy PAL. Can anyone help me?

 

[Slashy]

Whenever I start project m the screen goes black and white (I'm from europe), I've tried 3 different tvs which all support 60hz, I've tried setting the 60hz from the wii menu and I've even tried the deflicker trick but the game is still in black and white. The strange thing is that project M has worked before on every tv I've tried. The game stopped working then I played Big Brain Academy PAL. Can anyone help me?

2 options:

1. Get component cables and play at 480p
2. Try to set the video standard in GeckoOS to PAL.

 

[Utterrandomness]

Whenever I start project m the screen goes black and white (I'm from europe), I've tried 3 different tvs which all support 60hz, I've tried setting the 60hz from the wii menu and I've even tried the deflicker trick but the game is still in black and white. The strange thing is that project M has worked before on every tv I've tried. The game stopped working then I played Big Brain Academy PAL. Can anyone help me?

I got this problem when trying to play the game through my DVD recorder.

 

[Radian]

Nah. Tell them to go play Vanilla SF4.

Lol nah saying SF2 had a bigger troll effect, actually.

 

[Rikana]

Well when you're told to go play Melee when playing P:M, just put on your trollface and tell the SSF4 players to go play SF2 on the SNES.

It would make more sense if SSF4 was compared to 3rd Strike. SSF4 is actually quite balanced though.

 

[Cubelarooso]

Stuff

All of that makes sense. Sorry, I interpreted your last post as you saying we should try to convert the trolls.

However, I am of the opinion that the propagation of P:M can and should happen naturally through social networking. Word off mouth, YouTube, Facebook, Twitter, Google, players unaffiliated with the PMBR bringing it up on other forums, people noticing it at tourneys, etc.
I think an aggressive advertising campaign (or any, really) would just make the project seem desperate for attention and approval, and people are much more likely to trust an endorsement that comes from someone they know.
We should obviously squash misinformation wherever it pops up, but those who have any possibility of joining are most likely going to quickly detect that the trolls' rhetorical questions make no sense (particularly when the full product comes out).
The growth of our community should be fine if we just keep doing our thing and let others take notice at their leisure.

 

[Vigilante]

One thing I would like to bring up...: When you make people try the demo, tell them it is WORK IN PROGRESS. I'm always hearing people say "people tried it, the landing felt wrong, so they'll go back to Melee". Tell them that landing detection is on their to-do list for example.

 

[ClinkStryphart]

While I agree that you guys want to advertise pretty big time its best just to advertise at tournaments and local tourneys. I'm not trying to be mean or anything but I really don't want to see any project thats come this far get shut down from Nintendo because technically you are messing with their copyrighted game. Sure its their fault for allowing the Wii to be hacked in the first place but fact remains If Nintendo does catch wind of this they probably would shut it down.

But ya probably Facebook Myspace twitter and Tourney posting would be best for advertising. I have already suggested this game atleast the demo to a few friends and college buddies and they love it so far so I'm hoping it can go further in Michigan.

Anywho lets drop the whole advertising thing I'm pretty sure shanus or someone has already figured out how to get peoples attention.

Back on topic of game

about Luigi are you guys going to give him his N64 return well the distance of it. His UPB in brawl is cool because it gives him his Super Paper Mario attribute but at the same time its sort of a hinderance off stage as a recovery. at least in my opinon. so maybe you could do something like his Brawl version on stage would make him fall to the ground brawl style and make his off stage air up B like 64s or would that be just weird to work with.

 

[mugwhump]

I think an aggressive advertising campaign (or any, really) would just make the project seem desperate for attention and approval, and people are much more likely to trust an endorsement that comes from someone they know.
We should obviously squash misinformation wherever it pops up, but those who have any possibility of joining are most likely going to quickly detect that the trolls' rhetorical questions make no sense (particularly when the full product comes out).

I dunno, I think the forum campaigns were more effective than I expected. Nobody in the discussions seems to think of it as advertising.

 

[Flayl]

Does loading through Neogamma bring any disadvantages compared to loading through Riivolution?

 

[Ecks]

^none that I'm aware.

So I just saw the project m trailer on youtube and I was thinking that you guys should make another one when the patch is ready so you can show of how much the project has changed since then.

 

[moleman915]

Speaking of the patch, any bogpost coming up soon, shanus?

 

[PHD]

While I agree that you guys want to advertise pretty big time its best just to advertise at tournaments and local tourneys. I'm not trying to be mean or anything but I really don't want to see any project thats come this far get shut down from Nintendo because technically you are messing with their copyrighted game. Sure its their fault for allowing the Wii to be hacked in the first place but fact remains If Nintendo does catch wind of this they probably would shut it down.

There's almost no way Nintendo doesn't know about this by now. It's already been featured on some popular gaming sites, it has it's own website, and it's one of the more popular threads on smashboards. If they haven't shut it down yet I don't think it's going to happen.

 

[jalued]

While I agree that you guys want to advertise pretty big time its best just to advertise at tournaments and local tourneys. I'm not trying to be mean or anything but I really don't want to see any project thats come this far get shut down from Nintendo because technically you are messing with their copyrighted game. Sure its their fault for allowing the Wii to be hacked in the first place but fact remains If Nintendo does catch wind of this they probably would shut it down.

Modding games is not illigal, plus to play Project melee, all the is required is a brawl disc and an SD card. They make money as people buy brawl anyway, so i dont see why there would be any reason to attempt to shut the project down. It doesnt damage nintendos reputation or sales, and the modding required to play does not damage the wii in any way.

There is no reason at all that nintendo should shut down a free mod

 

[Ecks]

Yeah it's not illegal to mod something you already own and besides many people will buy brawl just for this (and maybe even a wii!).

 

[Cubelarooso]

But wasn't Syntax Error given a cease and desist that one time? Though I'm a little sketchy on the legal issues involved there.

 

[Revven]

No, they were not, they were just afraid that they would so they closed down the site.

 

[Cemetery]

If you think about it, Nintendo makes more money by endorsing this mod.

 

[Onomanic]

As long as no pirating is occurring nor is anyone selling the mod, I think P:M should be in good shape legally. Hacking has been around for like 3 years, if they wanted it stopped, I don't think this section of SWF would exist, if you catch my meaning.

 

[Rikana]

But wasn't Syntax Error given a cease and desist that one time? Though I'm a little sketchy on the legal issues involved there.

Whether they closed down out of fear or not was a rumour; it most likely is true though. Regardless, what made their methods illegal is the fact that you had to download the ISO, as in download Brawl but with their textures hardcoded into the ISO. I don't see why they won't fear Nintendo suing them.

Project M works with a legitimate copy of Brawl. It doesn't affect Nintendo's sales negatively in any way. Its like buying many games (different projects) for the price of one.

 

[GHNeko]

Not trying to be a stickler or anything, but you do realize that in order to play these mods, you have to use files that you can only find/pull from the iso off the iso onto the PC, to put on your SD card?

Pretty sure that grounds enough lol.

 

[standardtoaster]

Alright, all parts of the livestream have been uploaded to my YT account. I am not going to do this sort of thing again unless it's from a tourney or something. It's a pain in the ***. lol

 

[BinAly]

in order to play these mods, you have to use files that you can only find/pull from the iso off the iso onto the PC, to put on your SD card?

Pretty sure that grounds enough lol.

No, this does not break any law.

As long as you have bought a Brawl Copy, you can do anything you want.

The problems start when:

• You do something that allows people to play anything Brawl related for free.
• You sell anything Brawl related, making money with content you do not own.

As long as the Mod-Guys doesn't any of those two, they are safe.

 

[Evilagram]

Again, long post, I am sorry.

I agree with you 100%. If we don't promote this mod properly the mod will never gain acceptance. The demo especially is something we don't want to show to other sites, let them come here for that. I remember when I showed my cousins the demo they were infuriated with it, not only because their mains weren't there, but also because the fact that I told them items would glitch up. This isn't what we want to show casuals. We want to show casuals that P:M has more stages and (someday) more and better balanced characters than Brawl. As soon as they see that side of the mod, they will flock to it like crack addicts to their local drug dealer. Our promotions outside this website need to say that "Hey, we have more stages and more characters. When this is released, you'll abandon Brawl forever", with more competitive gameplay as a footnote. If we simply brus them off, as you said, this mod will never truly flourish.

Thank you very much. Not showing the casual players this demo is probably a very good idea unless you are a master of persuasion. They won't care about things like competitive balance or fair play (same thing in this particular example). When marketing to the casual players we should definitely emphasize how much has been added to the game. They are after all, the type that is impressed by MUGEN, not the type angry at MUGEN for horrid unbalance.

Well when you're told to go play Melee when playing P:M, just put on your trollface and tell the SSF4 players to go play SF2 on the SNES.

Haha! Very amusing! This is definitely a very good analogy for that one style of argument. However worth noting is that by itself, it's a bit aggressive and easily brushed off. If someone says that to you, and you reply with this, be sure to follow up with saying that by doing this, we get more characters and features than ever before and that we really just want all the new stuff brawl affords us, while still keeping it a tight fluid game.

Some people just don't like Melee, or some people like the moves characters had in Brawl or in previous Smash games. I believe that things like removing the Pokemon Trainer, or drastically changing the way characters function from previous Smash games may turn them off. Casuals aren't going to care if you're doing this for competitive reasons, they're going to care that their favourite strategy/move from Smash 64/Melee/Brawl isn't possible anymore.

Casuals probably don't have strategies like that. Casuals will care about things like changing Game and Watch's fishbowl and the way his up+B works.

Thing is, most casuals think of us as "Stop Having Fun Guys". I think that accommodating to these people on a superficial level (Not one that actually changes anything we care about of course!) can help garner acceptance. The most obvious thing is, fixing the items. Really, you can just leave them the way they originally functioned, just alter them from their current state to function more that way. Most obvious example of this is the stopwatch. Ever since B+ it has been broken as all hell (I used to run the hybrid airdodge code, whenever anyone picked up a stopwatch, it enabled me to fly wherever I wanted). Perhaps some research can be put into fixing time altering items once we finish the important things?

Also worth mentioning, we're trying to do a very difficult thing, eliminate character tiers (or as close to that as is possible). Tiers are something that no casual wants to know about. They are something that casuals actively dislike. This can be turned to our advantage by telling them that all characters are fair and balanced. Casual players like being able to play with any character against any other character without worrying about matchups or tier listings. That is something we can take advantage of.

Also, we're removing pokemon trainer? I don't keep up much, but it's really worth noting that in the eyes of the casuals, that seems like a poor move.

All of that makes sense. Sorry, I interpreted your last post as you saying we should try to convert the trolls.

However, I am of the opinion that the propagation of P:M can and should happen naturally through social networking. Word off mouth, YouTube, Facebook, Twitter, Google, players unaffiliated with the PMBR bringing it up on other forums, people noticing it at tourneys, etc.
I think an aggressive advertising campaign (or any, really) would just make the project seem desperate for attention and approval, and people are much more likely to trust an endorsement that comes from someone they know.
We should obviously squash misinformation wherever it pops up, but those who have any possibility of joining are most likely going to quickly detect that the trolls' rhetorical questions make no sense (particularly when the full product comes out).
The growth of our community should be fine if we just keep doing our thing and let others take notice at their leisure.

To a degree, we will eventually have to face the trolls, or just detractors, because they stand in the way of acceptance. This is not something we have to do now, but they are arguments we will have to address eventually. A thing to remember though is, that it does not so much matter that we are right and they are wrong, you have to think of it from a perspective of convincing the other person.

Social networking and viral is one way of spreading this, but it will not permeate everywhere. Especially now that brawl is like, a 3 year old game or something. Brawl did a big number on the community. I think that a central advertising campaign of some sort is something we will need when the final product is ready. We should hold off on it for now, especially until landing detection is fixed. Of course, aggressive advertising is a bad idea. We are not desperate, and we do not want to turn people off through our advertising. We need to hold in mind what appeals to the players.

The thing is, we are not in the best advertised venue. It took me a long time to find the brawl+ project. If people do not know exactly what to look for, it may be hard to find us. When we do present ourselves to the public, we must be professional, and our product must be very well polished.

One thing I would like to bring up...: When you make people try the demo, tell them it is WORK IN PROGRESS. I'm always hearing people say "people tried it, the landing felt wrong, so they'll go back to Melee". Tell them that landing detection is on their to-do list for example.

This is true, but it honestly sounds like us making excuses. Instead of just telling them, this is a work in progress, try something along the lines of, "Hey, here's how far they've gotten. Pretty nice job, right? Be sure to try this again when they come out with a new demo, I'm sure it'll get even closer to melee/even better." The emphasis should be on seeing our progress, that way they'll keep coming back. Emphasizing that they're not finished with this yet, but you should play it anyway only really serves to make people go back to their preferred version of brawl or melee.

While I agree that you guys want to advertise pretty big time its best just to advertise at tournaments and local tourneys. I'm not trying to be mean or anything but I really don't want to see any project thats come this far get shut down from Nintendo because technically you are messing with their copyrighted game. Sure its their fault for allowing the Wii to be hacked in the first place but fact remains If Nintendo does catch wind of this they probably would shut it down.

But ya probably Facebook Myspace twitter and Tourney posting would be best for advertising. I have already suggested this game atleast the demo to a few friends and college buddies and they love it so far so I'm hoping it can go further in Michigan.

Anywho lets drop the whole advertising thing I'm pretty sure shanus or someone has already figured out how to get peoples attention.

P:M involves the redistribution of nintendo resources in the form of the .pac files. Distributing cheats is legal, but a lot of the resources here are things nintendo owns. This is another reason why the project should be kept quiet until a more finished version is available. If the mod is finished, then there is nothing preventing us from leaking the final version should we ever get shut down. If it is cut down now, then there is nothing that can be done to save it.

To reiterate, plans ought to be put in place for a final advertising scheme so that we are ready when it is necessary.

No, this does not break any law.

As long as you have bought a Brawl Copy, you can do anything you want.

The problems start when:

• You do something that allows people to play anything Brawl related for free.
• You sell anything Brawl related, making money with content you do not own.

As long as the Mod-Guys doesn't any of those two, they are safe.

It is legal to modify files from the ISO on your computer, and your computer only. The instant you start distributing them is the instant it becomes illegal.

Luckily, nintendo as well as several other companies has granted permission to edit any type of nintendo art resources as long as no profit is made on their products. Worth noting though is, that they CAN shut us down at any time.

 

[Sneak8288]

long posts definitely need a tl;dr button

 

[Evilagram]

Haha, sorry about that. I replied to half a dozen other people. Even if you removed their quotes, it would be a long post.

 

[Sneak8288]

playing melee and streaming on stolen internet.. the connection is a lil unstable so i'm doing a quality test..if its ok for a while then we will switch to pm http://www.ustream.tv/channel/projectmsneak have to cut the sound because it sounds bad

 

[Ecks]

Now that I think about it, if Nintendo cared they would have closed kc:mm by now. Especially since they have a link to the iso files.

Oh, and this vertex should be included in P:M.