Project M Social Thread

[Vigilante]

Our development process is full of innovation day after day, so it's really unpredictable what major milestones could be reached by early February :-P

Ha! Confirmed for early February! (Teasing)

 

[GP&B]

When/If it's eventually understood, Nana's AI will be modified to behave like Melee although I think Fly_Amanita was suggesting a diversion that would remove wobbling infinites but still keep ICs fairly grab-centric.

 

[felipe_9595]

Ok wait, so you can load Project M on a unmodded wii??? O thanks :D

it an be loaded via usb?

 

[libertyernie]

Do you need help with any Custom SSS stuff?

 

[Strong Badam]

via SD card.

we don't need any help on SSS stuff; thanks for asking though!

 

[felipe_9595]

Strong, how o you exact load it via sd????? When i has Brawl+ i loaded it via CFG Usb loader.

 

[MonkUnit]

You can still load Project M through a USB loader like any other brawl hack.

 

[skaterbaj]

All you need is brawl, sd card and a wii. The game can be played regardless of any OS due to exploit in brawl, so it can be played in any form.

This answers my question then.

Thanks dude cant wait.

 

[Scufo]

I know a lot of people are looking forward to the demo, myself included, but

I wonder if it's wise to release a demo before the game engine is finalized? It's one thing to leave out unfinished characters, but it's quite another to release the demo in a state that doesn't actually reflect the final product. Maybe I'm overestimating the impact of landing detection and DI, but these seem like issues that should be sorted out in alpha, or pre-alpha, not beta. And the idea of a demo being released to the public before beta seems wrong to me.

Spoiler

*puts on flame retardant suit*

 

[DarkDragoon]

I know a lot of people are looking forward to the demo, myself included, but

I wonder if it's wise to release a demo before the game engine is finalized? It's one thing to leave out unfinished characters, but it's quite another to release the demo in a state that doesn't actually reflect the final product. Maybe I'm overestimating the impact of landing detection and DI, but these seem like issues that should be sorted out in alpha, or pre-alpha, not beta. And the idea of a demo being released to the public before beta seems wrong to me.

Spoiler

*puts on flame retardant suit*

I hope no one flames you for this. This is a really smart post.

The way I see it, industry demos tend to be products of a late-alpha early-beta version, so I wouldn't say this is too far off from that.

Also, its good for hype.
-DD

 

[Stevo]

luckily most of the included characters are melee characters that are unchanged or have little changed.

So I would say it is pretty safe.

As for how much of an impact landing detection and the like will have, well, I have never played P:M so I'm not sure....

 

[DiamondbodySharpshooter]

I know a lot of people are looking forward to the demo, myself included, but

I wonder if it's wise to release a demo before the game engine is finalized? It's one thing to leave out unfinished characters, but it's quite another to release the demo in a state that doesn't actually reflect the final product. Maybe I'm overestimating the impact of landing detection and DI, but these seem like issues that should be sorted out in alpha, or pre-alpha, not beta. And the idea of a demo being released to the public before beta seems wrong to me.

Spoiler

*puts on flame retardant suit*

Nope, definitely valid. But I think it's a gamble where the odds aren't against them. Yes, it can cause issues when things are not fixed to perfection in the demo, and then things change. BUT, it gives the people a taste of what's to come, you know? The people who were interested get rewarded for their support, the people who don't know they're interested yet get a nice sample of what's to come to get hooked onto.

Though I would say the demo is definitely past pre-alpha. And with breakthroughs everyday, I'm sure we're gonna get something real nice.

(Well, as long as you have the suit on...*blasts with flamethrower*)

 

[MookieRah]

Maybe I'm overestimating the impact of landing detection and DI, but these seem like issues that should be sorted out in alpha, or pre-alpha, not beta.

Well, even if these things aren't perfect, the game looks A LOT like Melee when played, so while it may undergo changes, I think that people would rather play an unfinished demo than having to wait until these bugs are worked out. I honestly don't see how this would negatively affect the project.

 

[Dantarion]

The issue is that they are so uncertain that they may never be figured out.

We can't say "oh, that should take about X days to do" because we really can't estimate our development progress when the development is into the unknown.

For example, fixing the DI, I am the only person really working on it, and I am busy. In my spare time i have made potentially hundreds of advances, but if I had spent all that time on DI, theres no guarantee I would have fixed it.

 

[Scufo]

To be fair my concerns are pretty minor. Ideally the Melee "feel" would be perfect by the time the demo comes out, but seeing as how they have yet to figure out landing detection and DI, it's difficult to put a time table on when, if ever, these issues get resolved.

If they knew how, I would absolutely say they should get this stuff fixed before releasing the demo. But if it can't be done it can't be done. Whatcha gonna do?

I hope the demo doesn't feel like a completely different game than the final product (because that undermines the purpose of a demo), and it probably won't, but we'll just have to play it and find out.

edit: Ninja'd by Dant. Looks like our thoughts are pretty much the same on this.

 

[Revven]

luckily most of the included characters are melee characters that are unchanged or have little changed.

So I would say it is pretty safe.

As for how much of an impact landing detection and the like will have, well, I have never played P:M so I'm not sure....

The first 5 minutes you play it you'll go like this:

First minute in
"Wow, this is so cool! Everything looks so smooth and there's so much nostalgia to it!"

2nd minute in
"Hmm... I can't seem to do Marth's short hop double Forward Air as easily as I can in Melee..."

3rd minute in
"Ooh! Captain Falcon feels so close to Melee it's unbelievable! I love it!"

4th minute it
"Did that guy just survive my Sheik forward air at 140% (exaggerated % for sake of example)?..."

5th minute in
"Wow! Despite all these really minor flaws because of things that they haven't been able to fix yet this game feels amazing already! I can totally adjust to this. I'm going to keep playing! :D"

Note: Five minutes may not be an adequate time frame for the cycle seen here. Realize that the time frame it takes for the cycle to occur may vary.

Obviously experiences may vary. As long as you're aware of what the problems are (that we have only educated you all on for the past year or so) and you take the time to sit down and play it for more than 5 minutes it will feel very similar to Melee. Adjusting to it completely takes 20-30 minutes tops. There are so many people who have played it well before we even announced a demo (Mango, Silent Wolf, LuCkY to name a few) and loved it and that was months and months ago (well before a ton of breakthroughs).

And people still love it... if that doesn't tell you how it is I'm not sure what will other than: you need to play it when it's out.

We wouldn't push something out if we weren't confident with how it plays.

 

[Scufo]

Sounds good.

 

[MookieRah]

So what are all the problems with DI? Like how does it differ from Melee? To me that's a bigger issue than landing detection.

Also, the clone engine. I keep getting mentions of this thing, but is there a page or a thread discussing the possibilities of this thing?

 

[JediKnightTemplar]

Also, the clone engine. I keep getting mentions of this thing, but is there a page or a thread discussing the possibilities of this thing?

There's a thread, but it's dead and is all hype with a few updates dispersed between pages. I have no idea if/when it will be completely stable as Dant said a little while back that he had hit a huge snag in it so I wouldn't get my hopes up for it coming with the final release. That being said though, are there any plans to release Mewtwo or Roy as optional characters you can replace their respective original characters or has so little work been completed towards a definitive P:M Mewtwo or Roy that they wouldn't be ready before release?

 

[Rikana]

Its using Brawl DI which is incredibly powerful in gameplay, which is part of the reason why some characters live up to 150%.

 

[MookieRah]

I'd love to see both a Mewtwo and Roy in the final release, although I'm not gonna expect it. I remember working on Roy for B+ and he was shaping up to be awesome, although I have no idea that if they were to implement him if he would play anything like what B+ was working with at that time. I loved that his tips drug people into his sweetspot, it made him function much better as a character and made him unique.

Its using Brawl DI which is incredibly powerful in gameplay, which is part of the reason why some characters live up to 150%.

Ah, ok. That is what I figured. Honestly, this is a rather minor issue then. If they aren't able to fix it then it will simply be chalked up to one of the things that make this game different from Melee.

 

[Archangel]

I know a lot of people are looking forward to the demo, myself included, but

I wonder if it's wise to release a demo before the game engine is finalized? It's one thing to leave out unfinished characters, but it's quite another to release the demo in a state that doesn't actually reflect the final product. Maybe I'm overestimating the impact of landing detection and DI, but these seem like issues that should be sorted out in alpha, or pre-alpha, not beta. And the idea of a demo being released to the public before beta seems wrong to me.

This may be shocking coming from me.....but I actually don't know if releasing the demo is such a grand idea. The smash community as a whole is very close minded. Little details are enough to keep players like Dr.PP and Zhu from playing it for example. If enough good players turn their backs on it the fanboys will follow suit....could be bad....then again it could be good.

 

[Slashy]

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=12021861&postcount=23584

Seriously? This needs to be changed? You might as well have me email the announcer again because him not saying the title might turn people off.

Oh and entrance animations, those make the game too slow.

 

[kaizo13]

Honestly, this is a rather minor issue then.

I wouldn't call Brawl DI a "minor Issue".....it is just as big of an issue as Landing Detection imo.

they both have a huge impact on the "Melee feel"

 

[MonkUnit]

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=12021861&postcount=23584

Seriously? This needs to be changed? You might as well have me email the announcer again because him not saying the title might turn people off.

Oh and entrance animations, those make the game too slow.

It didn't NEED to be changed. We just changed it be slightly faster, melee cursor speed, so that choosing your character would be slightly faster. You almost don't notice the change but it feels much better.

 

[shanus]

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=12021861&postcount=23584

Seriously? This needs to be changed? You might as well have me email the announcer again because him not saying the title might turn people off.

Oh and entrance animations, those make the game too slow.

i think your the first person to ever complain about having a more responsive cursor.

I bet you'd complain if we fixed nicknames to have the oldest appear first in order as well because convenience isn't built into vbrawl.


These are subtle touches to make our game differentiated and overall more refined. I don't get why people get offended by the smallest things. We can edit complete character movesets, but editing a cursor speed and we get called for treason lol

 

[Ulevo]

I think it is important that the Project M development team only distributes this demo directly for download from the actual site, and puts up a disclaimer on the site to help people understand what they may be walking in to when they download the demo.

It's different for someone like me, who's been following this thread for...months and months now, to download this, play it, and see a few problems as opposed to a Melee veteran finding a link to this on Mediafire that one of his buddies sends him, downloads it without any previous knowledge, then after playing it and realizing he can't dair through platforms with Ganondorf, comes to the wrong conclusion.

I think that this probably won't happen, but I feel it's a precaution the team should take. This way, everyone downloading the demo will be informed that while what they're downloading will be great, there are some imperfections that will be fixed in the final product.

It sounds stupid to have to tell people that since it is a demo but I'd say safeguarding your reputation and maintaining the hype and reversing criticism right now is the most important thing to do.

 

[Revven]

This may be shocking coming from me.....but I actually don't know if releasing the demo is such a grand idea. The smash community as a whole is very close minded. Little details are enough to keep players like Dr.PP and Zhu from playing it for example. If enough good players turn their backs on it the fanboys will follow suit....could be bad....then again it could be good.

That's like saying "letting people playtest it may mean they might like it or they might dislike it"......

....yet the response has been positive from most first timers, usually having repeated the same issues we already know about (landing detection, DI) and once it's explained they're fine with it (which the issues known will clearly be let known once the demo is out).

But there will always people who will skip any kind of reading and play it. Just like any readme txt file.

 

[MookieRah]

I wouldn't call Brawl DI a "minor Issue".....it is just as big of an issue as Landing Detection imo.

they both have a huge impact on the "Melee feel"

You can't have it perfectly emulate Melee. At the end of the day it's an adaption. Also, outside of being really powerful, at least it's functioning DI that doesn't glitch. So while it's a big deal for people wanting this to be EXACTLY like melee, it really isn't, and shouldn't be, a big deal. In the grand scheme of things, the game would still be extremely competitive even if this was never fixed.

Little details are enough to keep players like Dr.PP and Zhu from playing it for example.

Perhaps, but if this really takes off then I'm sure they would make the switch. The biggest problem for pro players and this is that it is uncertain whether or not Project M will become a tournament heavy game. Also, if they are playing the same character as they are on Melee, learning the ins and outs of Project M would likely mess up their melee game and lower their performance playing it competitively.

So unless Zhu or PP flat out said they hate it or what have you, I doubt they would be opposed to switching to it if it pulled a greater draw than Melee does at tournaments.

 

[Dantarion]

I think it is important that the Project M development team only distributes this demo directly for download from the actual site, and puts up a disclaimer on the site to help people understand what they may be walking in to when they download the demo.

Disclaimer and URL on the strap loader.

 

[shanus]

We plan to place major disclaimers (even on the strap screen) that this is a demo and refinements will be in place over time to the engine. If players are expecting a 110% melee clone or else they won't play it, demo or not I doubt they would ever grow to love it. Those who see the value in the new characters, the enriched low tiers, etc, will appreciate and grow the Project M community.

edit: dant ninja


ninja + wizard = unfair

 

[MookieRah]

Would it be possible to edit something in game that tells people that this is a demo and you are working on stuff? I say that cause no matter how hard you guys try, people will still put this mod up on other sites, they will torrent it, and what have you. If it's in the game, like on the loading screen, it would be harder for people to assume that you guys intended it to be a demo.

I'm sure you guys already thought of this though, kinda being a pre-emptive Captain Obvious with this post.

Edit:
I was beaten 2x on this one. O_o

 

[Ulevo]

Thing is, the only way I can see this pulling in more people than Melee does is if it plays EXACTLY like Melee in game. I may be naive for assuming this, since I'm not Dantarion or anything, but I really believe this is possible. You've given them there favorite stages, ported over to be exactly like Melee; you've given them their favorite characters, and eventually they'll all play exactly as they did, with slight alterations on some; you make the engine play the same too, most smashers won't have a reason to tell you "no".

 

[Rikana]

Make it a link to a readme.txt first which explains things missing and things they can expect in the demo. And at the end of the readme, provide a link to the files. I know this easy to bypass (scroll all the way down without reading or copy paste for friends) but it seems like the best way without killing your bandwidth and it opens up a text document which doesn't distract them say if they were to read from the main website.

Edit: it's sort of a psychological thing. When you open up a txt document, you are more likely to read it.

 

[shanus]

Thing is, the only way I can see this pulling in more people than Melee does is if it plays EXACTLY like Melee in game. I may be naive for assuming this, since I'm not Dantarion or anything, but I really believe this is possible. You've given them there favorite stages, ported over to be exactly like Melee; you've given them their favorite characters, and eventually they'll all play exactly as they did, with slight alterations on some; you make the engine play the same too, most smashers won't have a reason to tell you "no".

Well right now it does play almost exactly like melee, with very subtle nuances. But some players are so skeptical that even if a value is exact from melee, both frame, hitbox location, gravity, etc, they convince themselves its not. That was the population I was referring to who will likely not switch.

 

[felipe_9595]

they can copy the link from the txt .-. is the smae

Maybe A texture on the CSS that says the demo biuld???? That Might work

 

[Rikana]

Felipe, simply stating a demo build will not mean anything to ignorant people. It requires explaining.

 

[Slashy]

i think your the first person to ever complain about having a more responsive cursor.

I bet you'd complain if we fixed nicknames to have the oldest appear first in order as well because convenience isn't built into vbrawl.


These are subtle touches to make our game differentiated and overall more refined. I don't get why people get offended by the smallest things. We can edit complete character movesets, but editing a cursor speed and we get called for treason lol

Because these changes are fueled solely by the fact that Melee had them, and that your userbase wouldn't play it if these changes weren't made. Changes like these make this seem like an expansion rather than a sequel. This project. This project feels less like an inspiration and more like an exact clone.

If all this project amounts to is a product that complements Melee, then what's the point of making changes designed specifically to appeal to Melee players? I feel that this could have been an amazing project that takes heavy inspiration, but not go so far to feel like an expansion of it. Something that feels new in its own right, but doesn't go out of its way to alienate players who had experience with previous games in the series.

There is a difference between

"Hey this character is still good like you remember her with all her great abilities, but she has some new strategies you can use with (this new move, mechanic, engine)"

"She plays exactly how you remember her, no adjustment needed here"

 

[Rikana]

Because these changes are fueled solely by the fact that Melee had them, and that your userbase wouldn't play it if these changes weren't made. Changes like these make this seem like an expansion rather than a sequel. This project. This project feels less like an inspiration and more like an exact clone.

If all this project amounts to is a product that complements Melee, then what's the point of making changes designed specifically to appeal to Melee players? I feel that this could have been an amazing project that takes heavy inspiration, but not go so far to feel like an expansion of it. Something that feels new in its own right, but doesn't go out of its way to alienate players who had experience with previous games in the series.

There is a difference between

"Hey this character is still good like you remember her with all her great abilities, but she has some new strategies you can use with (this new move, mechanic, engine)"

"She plays exactly how you remember her, no adjustment needed here"

Slashy, it's just cursor speed.. lol.

 

[felipe_9595]

Felipe, simply stating a demo build will not mean anything to ignorant people. It requires explaining.

Maybe replacing the Press start to play thing with a texture that says "This is a demo version ...... etc etc etc"