Project M Social Thread

[Juushichi]

Falco400, are you going to Sole's Test Your Might in December?

 

[SnowMan]

I'm trying not to come off as a whiner, but Jiggs NEEDS to be nerfed somehow.

All of the characters in smash are pretty equal when it comes to risks and rewards. However, the closest Jiggs comes to a risk is with rest, and considering the power and speed of that attack the reward still outweighs the possibility of being punished.

So its pretty obvious that Jiggs is one-of-a-kind in the smash world. The margin of error is maximized for her opponents while Jiggs can enjoy the comfort of being difficult to combo at kill percent, having the best offstage game, and her rest combos are easily the fastest and most lethal finishers amongst the cast.

of course, you could say that my opinion is solely based on the fact that "da 2 behst playahs use pUff" but that doesn't change the fact that based on her attributes she has a far more uneven risk/reward ratio than pretty much the entire melee cast.

IMO, her risks should be upped by making her kill percent even lower than it already is. Granted, it'll make her harder to combo, but at least Jiggs mains will be forced to play with a bit more caution if the stakes are higher and Jiggs is more like the majority of the cast.

At least you pretended like you knew what you were talking about.

 

[Revven]

So has the animation change in ganon's wiz kick changed anything about the attack, or does it just look cool?

Well it has the ported Melee values... but that was done before the animation change.

Falco400, are you going to Sole's Test Your Might in December?

Proooooobably not, I stopped playing Bawrl so there's no real reason for me to go. Plus, unless it happens around the time I get out of college for break I doubt I can go anyway.

 

[Sovereign]

why do you want him to be a nigh 100% falcon clone...again...?

anywho, this brings up another question from me:

I know Ganon got his usmash, Dsmash and i think Dair Animations changed (dont like the last cus I feel the Brawl Murder Stomp has more of a feeling of POWAH behind it), and Falco got his old Shine back, but are there any other plans to change vets to be more like their melee selves, or will things from brawl be kept?

(for example, Peach's Hearts vs 'splosions, FLUDD, etc)

Eh... It's more or less a personal preference. Ganon was actually the only clone that I liked. Ganon's Brawl Dair was dumb looking. Looks like he's trying to take a standing dump. His run looks like he's in desperate need to find a toilet. I'm glad his Melee run and Dair are back. They look far more pleasing to the eye than that crap on vBrawl.

 

[Shell]

The WizTruck animation change added an initial step back important for hitting opponents right next to you / inside of you. The hitboxes were also adjusted to properly hit grounded opponents.

Even if AMKalmar's particular idea isn't practical, it does raise another issue I don't see brought up too often.

Melee tourneys always had really vague anti-stalling rules that were (arguably) necessitated by things like Puff's rising pound and a few ledge-camping strats. I dislike this rule since, in addition to being vague, the stage/match-up combinations in which one character can completely evade the other in an easy and deterministic way are few and far between. What sort of implementations could be brought in to make it so we don't need vague anti-stalling rules for these cases?

This varies greatly by stage and match-up, but here a few ideas anyways. One thing that BBrawl did was make it so that you automatically get up from a ledge if you grab a ledge(s) a certain number of times before landing on a surface. This would probably deal with a lot of problematic situations nicely.

Would it be possible to limit the number of times Puff could use pound per airborne period? The condition for regaining the pounds would be landing on a surface in this case. To make sure that this wouldn't actually hurt her recovery in a particularly significant way, you could give her at least as many pounds as she has midair jumps. This would have almost no influence on her recovery, yet it would largely hinder pound's stalling potential.

While we haven't discussed anything like this in the PMBR, I personally think it should be possible to turn almost any in-match rule into a code, we just need to talk about whether that's something we want to do.

For Jigg's rising pound, it would be possible to either disallow Side-B until landing after X uses, or decrease the rise after a certain number of uses. However, ledgegrabs become more complicated. In Melee, many characters have infinite ledge stalls that are important for edgeguarding or getting back on to the stage without getting destroyed by Marth and company. I can't think of a good way to limit deliberate, extended stalling and planking without compromising the legit uses of ledge stalling, but I am open to suggestions.

There was already a techchasing factor before you allowed them to tech it, plus it nerfs the hell out of the Aerial Gerudo.

We sped up the aerial Side-B cooldown, so he should still be able to get followups out of it. Plus, by mixing up grounded and aerial versions, you sometimes trick the opponent into missing a tech since the timings are different.

 

[Rostigalen]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXiIA91_DEQ

Can someone please explain Zelda's Side-B to me, and how it works?

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

I also want an explanation.

It looks like the fire places a sparkle in midair and when Zelda places three or does another attack, they detonate.

Magic Air C4???

LOLOl.

Wait, egg rolling in the air restores Yoshi's midair Jump? Ok.

 

[Juushichi]

Well it has the ported Melee values... but that was done before the animation change.



Proooooobably not, I stopped playing Bawrl so there's no real reason for me to go. Plus, unless it happens around the time I get out of college for break I doubt I can go anyway.

He turned it into a Brawl+Melee event, but I understand on the last part. OH's trying to revive it's Melee scene.

 

[Youngling]

At least you pretended like you knew what you were talking about.

Bahahahahaahhaha I love you

 

[ZeroUnderOne]

Looks like Din's fire is on a timer now and Zelda's cast animation is canceled on landing?

 

[Revven]

You can waveland from aerial Din's Fire.

 

[Rikana]

Air dodging from Dins look a bit clunky.

 

[Impp]

Dewd, we should totally play. I have it you knoowwww.

Yeah, I'd be down.

 

[Akuma2120]

So I watched some videos

Has ZSS been worked on at all? She looks like she still plays exactly like VBrawl, and was her short hop always that ridiculously high? Doesn't that kill of any potential for air-game approach and limit her to the ground for approaches? Or does it give some kind of other option I'm not seeing?

Also, that dreamland stage is ****ing huge

And is Link getting anymore changes? He seems fine now, like he seems somewhat viable at least I'm just wondering

 

[Rikana]

I watched the japanese wolf:m. Is it different than the current english wolf:m? He seems to have an extremely strong defensive/offensive gameplay. It looks like he has auto cancel (or was it sped up?) lasers. Along with JC lasers, this makes the laser a huge part of his gameplay and also very overwhelming for the opponent.

 

[GP&B]

ZSS has file constraint issues so she likely hasn't had much work at all.

 

[Archangel]

Zelda's sooooo broken lol.

I wanna try that out.

 

[TLMSheikant]

It wont be broken. It gives her a nice pressure game. Which she desperately needs.

 

[Archangel]

She'll be able to camp and TO some people That should be fun.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Shell & Falco400, thanks for the info duders, I definitely approve of the animation change.

One more question in regards to his wiz kick, is it keeping its brawl+ aerial landing lag, or are you guys going to stick with it's melee values?

 

[Plum]

Can we still select the buffer window when choosing our character?

Unless Strong_Bad had his way with the codeset and I'm not aware of it, the Handicap=Buffer system is still there, you just have to turn it on yourself.
What we wanted when we made this change was to remove buffer for serious matches because the game is about testing skill and buffer does create an artificial skill by extending the windows on what should be frame perfect timings. If you see a Project M side tourney or something of the like, expect zero buffer because we want the true skill to be the deciding factor here.
However, we also recognize the usefulness of the system. One problem with Melee is the technical barrier of the game that makes it hard for a new player to get into. When showing Project M to Brawl players who are interested in the game but have no Melee experience for example, you can turn on the Buffer system in the advanced options menu for them so they will have an easier time getting the timing of AT's down.
It makes it much easier to ease yourself into the game because you have the ability to start at like three frames of buffer (or whatever is good for you) and slowly work your way down to two frames, then one frame, and lastly zero as your dexterity improves.

 

[Akuma2120]

Zelda's sooooo broken lol.

I wanna try that out.

Doesn't look like she can handle C. Falcon though, sure she can set up fire traps but that guy is all over the place, it won't do any good lol

Unless Strong_Bad had his way with the codeset and I'm not aware of it, the Handicap=Buffer system is still there, you just have to turn it on yourself.
What we wanted when we made this change was to remove buffer for serious matches because the game is about testing skill and buffer does create an artificial skill by extending the windows on what should be frame perfect timings. If you see a Project M side tourney or something of the like, expect zero buffer because we want the true skill to be the deciding factor here.
However, we also recognize the usefulness of the system. One problem with Melee is the technical barrier of the game that makes it hard for a new player to get into. When showing Project M to Brawl players who are interested in the game but have no Melee experience for example, you can turn on the Buffer system in the advanced options menu for them so they will have an easier time getting the timing of AT's down.
It makes it much easier to ease yourself into the game because you have the ability to start at like three frames of buffer (or whatever is good for you) and slowly work your way down to two frames, then one frame, and lastly zero as your dexterity improves.

That is a VERY good idea

 

[Darkshooter]

Any bets for what the tier list will look like?

My predictions based on what Ive seen via the Youtube videos:

1. C Falcon
2. Fox McCloud
3. Falco
4. Marth
5. Snake
6. Jigglypuff
7. Sheik
8. Ice Climbers
9. Ganandorf
10. Peach

Remember they're predictions so yours may go a little differently.

 

[XkaruX]

Stupid din's fire is stupid
Derp fire

 

[TLMSheikant]

People will always complain huh? If zelda is bad, ppl complain. If she's good they still complain lol. Her new Din's fire trap wont be broken in a melee enviroment. Oh, you want to set traps? Sorry Im already in ur face uthrow upairing u. ~Fox~

 

[Crispy4001]

Interesting idea with Zelda's Din Fire. I can't critique it too much given that I haven't tried it. But have you guys experimented with it exploding after the 2nd sparkle and not the third? It seems like it sits there a little too long to be all that useful, especially against faster characters. Beyond edge-guarding applications it may be too predictable and non-threatening IMO. But kudos to adding the wavelanding.

Anything else notable that has been changed about her?

 

[XkaruX]

lol At first I thought it was a glitch... wtf are you guys serious?
Looks like some Melty Blood s***.
It doesn't even seem to be that useful.

 

[Revven]

Her Up B allows you to airdodge out of it (only in the middle of the teleport, not after). And her neutral B can be ground canceled as momosugar demonstrated in the other videos. Her Dair sweetspot is also actually a bit useful and can actually hit short characters.

Also, momosugar was just really messing around with it, Magus (who streamed last night) showed some good applications of Din's.

Edit: Boy TLM is right, you can't please anyone.

 

[Crispy4001]

Her Up B allows you to airdodge out of it (only in the middle of the teleport, not after). And her neutral B can be ground canceled as momosugar demonstrated in the other videos. Her Dair sweetspot is also actually a bit useful and can actually hit short

Thank goodness, on all accounts. Especially the Up B and Dair improvements. Zelda's always been a sitting duck when trying to make it back down to the stage after being hit vertically.

 

[genkaku]

Buffer stuff.

That seems like an ideal solution to me.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Interesting concept for the new Zelda, I have to say. Do the sweetspots on her fair and bair stay out longer, or was that just my imagination?

And can her dair actually pop up grounded opponents now?

/stupid questions

 

[Revven]

Interesting concept for the new Zelda, I have to say. Do the sweetspots on her fair and bair stay out longer, or was that just my imagination?

And can her dair actually pop up grounded opponents now?

/stupid questions

1) Sweetspots work like Melee.

2) If you hit with the sweetspot, yes.

 

[Sneak8288]

People will always complain huh? If zelda is bad, ppl complain. If she's good they still complain lol. Her new Din's fire trap wont be broken in a melee enviroment. Oh, you want to set traps? Sorry Im already in ur face uthrow upairing u. ~Fox~

truth
10foxmains

 

[Ulevo]

I am really enjoying the way Lucario and Zelda have been changed. I do have one question; how does Lucario's new aura system work?

Also, an idea I thought would be useful for Zelda is BBrawls addition that allowed her to move with her neutral B. Considering the moves priority and Zeldas usual lack of zoning tools/pressure options, I think it could be a useful yet not over-done addition.

 

[Crispy4001]

lol At first I thought it was a glitch... wtf are you guys serious?
Looks like some Melty Blood s***.

Yeah, I'll admit it, it took some getting used to aesthetically. It doesn't look quite as polished in execution as the brilliant work that's been done on Wario's modified moves. (nothing wrong with that, since its all WIP)


This is just an idea - just going to throw it out there. Why not, when you let go of B, keep the fire circle? And instead of killing all its momentum, have it drift forward ever-so-slightly in the direction it was traveling. A half second or so later... boom. Zelda players would have to get used to letting go of B earlier, but that would actually help her game in the long run. And it'd look cool too.

I like what's been done to its speed, how more than one can be out at a time, and the wavelanding. All those things should stick, at the least.

 

[AMKalmar]

Also, trig functions are slow, which can become a problem when all calculations need to be done within 16ms.

LOL @ TRIG

ahahah oh god thanks for the laughs

no but really try to do it linearly with 7th gradeish math because you know
sakurai did not add the cosine function in brawl's language because
it's not needed why would it be needed
it isn't
ok

The equation is just for the values. Testing could be done with a linear equation, then once you've decided on values of i and f, do this:

If you don't have access to trig functions, you could always get a good approximation with a maclaurin series.

This would probably be best, but you could leave it linear as I said was an option in the first post regarding this.

Spoiler

You horrible, horrible people :<

I like Puff unnerfed.

My idea is not a nerf. It removes the need for an additional rule and that's one less thing TOs have to enforce. It would be a nerf if you were extreme and made the values of i and f too small, but we'd be reasonable. Consider how many times you would ever realistically need to use rising pound in one "flight" if you were not killing time. Let's say 10 uses. After that point, the move could degrade over 20 uses. These values are too small if they affect real gameplay at all, and too large if they don't negate stalling. Be realistic here, would you ever really need to use rising pound more than a dozen times before touching ground? Think about it.

I'm trying not to come off as a whiner, but Jiggs NEEDS to be nerfed somehow.

With everyone below top tier getting buffs, I think it will balance out. The idea should be to make better what is bad, not make worse what is good. Unless something is insanely overpowered, it will probably remain unchanged.

We're not "nerfing" anyone right now, I don't even know why you brought it up.

He brought it up because genkaku said my idea was a nerf.

 

[AeonClock]

Is Bowser's down-b an automatic shield break now?

 

[Revven]

Is Bowser's down-b an automatic shield break now?

No, if you watch the other Bowser matches there is a point where Peach's shield is just fine after being hit by his Down B. The Peach player was just holding the shield way too long prior to Down B which caused the shield break (both times to be exact).

 

[Plum]

You REALLY need to watch your shield against Bowser.
He can and will break your shield if you aren't careful in the current builds.

 

[AMKalmar]

Are there plans to give crawls or even wall jumps to characters that didn't have them before? It seems to me that these should be more universal.