Project M Social Thread

[GP&B]

Good God, all I suggested was the possibility of nerfing Fox's stupid powerful USmash and not even by much. And his infinites barely make his game by the way. I sure as hell don't see wall shine infinites being pulled off a lot and he's still a wicked good character.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Are there any Ice Climber mains who have tried this? If so, how do they handle compared to Melee and Brawl?

 

[stingers]

what do you mean not even by much...120% is crazy high

 

[Galt]

You guys really think retired Melee players will be lured back by the prospect of having their favorite characters lose to Fox and Falco again? I don't.

 

[Archangel]

falcos dair is worse iirc

Yeah you can't leave your Dair out for 9000 years and spike....big deal.

I suspect, if you leave Fox and Falco the way they are currently, no new character, and no buffed] Melee character, will have any more realistic a chance of beating them with any frequency. If you really want to get the Melee crowd into a Brawl-based project, I'd say a good way to do that is to make the game feel similar, but shake up the tiers. You can balance Fox easily by powering down his moves. Falco is a little tougher, but still doable. I'd say Marth is probably the only character who needs absolutely no changes, if any such exists. Balance around Marth or Falcon or Peach, not around characters who are very nearly broken.

Also, why is it logical to nerf Sheik but not Fox? Yes, Sheik could CG half the cast. But not the half which mattered at all. If Sheik were at all dominant, I'd be all for it. But personally, I'd just give Sheik a longer dashdance (can you guys do that?), power down her f-air, and maybe power up the d-smash just slightly. She'll still be able to edgeguard like a demon even with a nerfed f-air.

What is your obsession with Nerfing? PAL shows the holes in Nerf logic. It never solves problems just creates new ones. Besides it's already been said that this game will be for the most part Guilty gear-like in terms of balancing. If everyone is good then nobody is broken. If you are still getting wrecked every match i'll be because you suck.

As for retired melee players. Most have come out of retirement already and those that haven't probably aren't going to anyway. It sounds to me like you've got personal issues. Maybe you are constantly beat by a good Spacie player or Spacies in general and as a Gaymanwatch player you don't like it ? Thats my theory anyway. LOL

As I said already though most characters already can contend with Fox and Falco even buffed melee characters like G&W/Zelda can hold there own or even **** up a Fox/Falco. Not to mention you seem to forget that at least 70% of the Melee community is a fox/falco player and if those characters are nerfed to hell and unmelee like this project will drop in hype because we'll instantly lose 70% of our targeted audience. I can already see a problem with fox players not being able to do the 06 Zelgadis stuff.

 

[Wind Owl]

1. Balance changes are not yet being discussed in the backroom.
2. When we do discuss balance, we will be bringing the low tiers UP and not the high tiers DOWN.
3. Your speculation that Fox and Falco are fundamentally unbalanceable is false in my opinion.

 

[L/A/W]

You guys really think retired Melee players will be lured back by the prospect of having their favorite characters lose to Fox and Falco again? I don't.

please stop posting, they others will be buffed and the ones that aren't being buffed can deal with them anyway

 

[GP&B]

what do you mean not even by much...120% is crazy high

You find 120% crazy high? Now if changes can't be made to Brawl's higher DI potency, yeah that's a pretty big problem. Otherwise, I'm pretty sure a lot of characters have much more trouble trying to achieve KO's at 120% in Melee.

But as an afterthought, as long as the buffed characters can handle them, it probably won't matter in the end.

 

[Lanstar]

I'm pretty sure a lot of characters have much more trouble trying to achieve KO's at 120% in Melee.

....no

have you played melee?

 

[Galt]

How many of you guys are top players or play against them regularly at all?

I never said Fox and Falco are unbalanceable. It would even be simple for Fox, and I think Falco would benefit a lot from a nerf to the d-air. The thing about nerfs... Have you guys studied game design and fighter theory? I'd point you toward Sirlin's blogs, from when he was rebalancing the Street Fighter 2 HD Remix. He talked about nerfs, and how it's best to avoid them, because "good" in any remotely balanced fighter means more viable options, and more viable options in turn makes the characters more fun to play and play against. You want every character to be great. The difference here is that... no character could be made any better than Fox and Falco and still be considered reasonably balanced. Think about it. There's practically no way to do it without breaking the character in some way. They have no real weaknesses already (except Falco's recovery, you might argue, but I'd compare that favorably to lots of characters).

My fundamental curiosity here is to see if programmers who were never top-level players can become good balancers. Design and balance are two separate fields. Sirlin, whom I mentioned above, titles himself as both. He designed Kongai, the card game for Kongregate.com, but he balanced the SF2 HD Remix.

I wouldn't ask you to make them play differently. I'd only ask you to make them more vulnerable. And that's a nerf which is worthy considering, even if nerfs in general are a bad idea.

Edit: Another thing Sirlin did, and this was very controversial, was to remove unneeded physical complexity, by simplifying various characters' special inputs, so that they were easier to perform reliably. That fact aloned buffed Cammy.

 

[L/A/W]

2 very large weaknesses for you
1. they BOTH have terribad recoveries, not just falco
2. There falling speed leaves susceptible to chaingrabs and big combos
edit: on your note of physical complexity, the spacies have some the highest in the game, which can be considered a weakness in itself

 

[Archangel]

How many of you guys are top players or play against them regularly at all?

I never said Fox and Falco are unbalanceable. It would even be simple for Fox, and I think Falco would benefit a lot from a nerf to the d-air. The thing about nerfs... Have you guys studied game design and fighter theory? I'd point you toward Sirlin's blogs, from when he was rebalancing the Street Fighter 2 HD Remix. He talked about nerfs, and how it's best to avoid them, because "good" in any remotely balanced fighter means more viable options, and more viable options in turn makes the characters more fun to play and play against. You want every character to be great. The difference here is that... no character could be made any better than Fox and Falco and still be considered reasonably balanced. Think about it. There's practically no way to do it without breaking the character in some way. They have no real weaknesses already (except Falco's recovery, you might argue, but I'd compare that favorably to lots of characters).

My fundamental curiosity here is to see if programmers who were never top-level players can become good balancers. Design and balance are two separate fields. Sirlin, whom I mentioned above, titles himself as both. He designed Kongai, the card game for Kongregate.com, but he balanced the SF2 HD Remix.

I wouldn't ask you to make them play differently. I'd only ask you to make them more vulnerable. And that's a nerf which is worthy considering, even if nerfs in general are a bad idea.

Edit: Another thing Sirlin did, and this was very controversial, was to remove unneeded physical complexity, by simplifying various characters' special inputs, so that they were easier to perform reliably. That fact aloned buffed Cammy.

Never top level players huh??? Alright its official I can't take you seriously because your a ****ing comedian!

As for Fox and Falco you are so focused on the pro's you forget the major con's they got. The reason why so many spacies place high are because they are fancy smancy cool to characters and about 70% of people use them. As a result Fox's and Falco's are going to find there way into the high rankings alot because they are good characters and so many use them. Puff usually takes 2 of the top 3 spots at big tournaments these days and there are probably less then 10 good puff players on planet earth/ the galaxy.

As for Fox and Falco...They are very very good by design however only in a perfect world vs questionable competition will a Fox and Falco dominate everyone. Even giving their massive advantages they have the highest stun and fall fast enough to be combo'd or Chaingrabed from 0-death by Most of the cast even some low tiers can can **** them up.

take a look at this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZl3v-TWgXI

and Roy SUCKS!!!!

 

[mitch2302]

galt, stop trying to start the l-canceling argument again. i see what u did thar.

 

[genkaku]

1. Balance changes are not yet being discussed in the backroom.
2. When we do discuss balance, we will be bringing the low tiers UP and not the high tiers DOWN.
3. Your speculation that Fox and Falco are fundamentally unbalanceable is false in my opinion.

I'm sorry, but I was under the impression that this discussion effectively ended with the above quote.

 

[Sora-kun]

if you want an example of how spacies can get wrecked by low tiers just point him to taj and germ.

 

[Sterowent]

I'm sorry, but I was under the impression that this discussion effectively ended with the above quote.

indeed, it should have. galt's trying to be reasonable, but he's ignoring some of the key facts he himself presents, such as suggesting nerfs that power down characters while referencing design that promotes the opposite.


man, i wonder when sneak's goin to upload those last few vids!

 

[Wind Owl]

Galt: We recognize that we are only coders, not top level players. That is why we are accepting Melee pros into the backroom for their feedback, and that is why, after we release a beta, we will have a Project M Development Backroom for coders, and a separate MBR-esque Project M Backroom for elite players to discuss and decide upon issues regarding balance and competitive viability.

 

[Archangel]

if you want an example of how spacies can get wrecked by low tiers just point him to taj and germ.

Seriously. Once this goes through the balancing phase Characters like Link should be overall better and player that are not The Germ will be able to wreck Spacies....They won't dominate them but it'll put them on even terms.....a.k.a. Balance out the match up.


LOL@ Bring back auto l-canceling

I honestly think he's past that.

 

[Sora-kun]

Seriously. Once this goes through the balancing phase Characters like Link should be overall better and player that are not The Germ will be able to wreck Spacies....They won't dominate them but it'll put them on even terms.....a.k.a. Balance out the match up.


LOL@ Bring back auto l-canceling

I honestly think he's past that.

precisely. the fact that low tiers in a good player's hand can already destroy top tiers makes me wholeheartedly believe that simply making everyone else better will fix the issue perfectly. nerfs are stupid unless you wear mittens and clown shoes.. wield a daggar thing and say "victory is my destiny" when you win like the little conceited ***** you are..

 

[Sterowent]

wow, i remember back when everyone was hyped cubaisdeath got really great players to play PM. immediately, i watched all the ones i could.

and, today, it looks like i missed a big chunk of them. he was still uploading! if you guys didn't notice this either, here's the channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/cubaisdeath#g/u
it's an outdated codeset (hah), but should still be some pretty wicked matches. now excuse me as i snack on breakfast and revel in this treasure trove.

 

[Sora-kun]

wow, i remember back when everyone was hyped cubaisdeath got really great players to play PM. immediately, i watched all the ones i could.

and, today, it looks like i missed a big chunk of them. he was still uploading! if you guys didn't notice this either, here's the channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/cubaisdeath#g/u
it's an outdated codeset (hah), but should still be some pretty wicked matches. now excuse me as i snack on breakfast and revel in this treasure trove.

what if someone put in the OP a list of the youtube channels who are uploading matches? for new people who want to see footage or something?


or no .-.
i'm mainly suggesting this because i think i might have missed someone..

 

[Sterowent]

i dunno, the only reason people would watch the older matches is to see the progress this project has made, in a relatively short time at that. i'd rather people following this project see the newest version of the game instead of stuff that might be more flawed. but i don't speak for the project

 

[JCaesar]

Are there any Ice Climber mains who have tried this? If so, how do they handle compared to Melee and Brawl?

Does Chudat count?

You find 120% crazy high? Now if changes can't be made to Brawl's higher DI potency, yeah that's a pretty big problem. Otherwise, I'm pretty sure a lot of characters have much more trouble trying to achieve KO's at 120% in Melee.

I'm pretty sure no top tiers had trouble getting KOs at 120%. And that's where we're aiming for balance.

My fundamental curiosity here is to see if programmers who were never top-level players can become good balancers.

We are actively bringing top-level players into the backroom, and they will be at the center of any balance issues.

what if someone put in the OP a list of the youtube channels who are uploading matches? for new people who want to see footage or something?


or no .-.
i'm mainly suggesting this because i think i might have missed someone..

http://www.youtube.com/ProjectMelee
http://www.youtube.com/JCaesar007
http://www.youtube.com/shanus19
http://www.youtube.com/cubaisdeath
http://www.youtube.com/Sn3ak8288
http://www.youtube.com/lyokan
http://www.youtube.com/flame6753

Not sure if there are P:M vids on all of those, and there might be a few channels I'm missing, but that's the list I have.

btw, expect outdated vids to be taken down in the not-so-distant future, once we get Melee hitboxes perfected.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Does Chudat count?

Nah, Chudat's ****.

Joking obviously, thanks for the link.

...I sent you an application btw...

 

[Sora-kun]

Does Chudat count?


I'm pretty sure no top tiers had trouble getting KOs at 120%. And that's where we're aiming for balance.


We are actively bringing top-level players into the backroom, and they will be at the center of any balance issues.


http://www.youtube.com/ProjectMelee
http://www.youtube.com/JCaesar007
http://www.youtube.com/shanus19
http://www.youtube.com/cubaisdeath
http://www.youtube.com/Sn3ak8288
http://www.youtube.com/lyokan
http://www.youtube.com/flame6753

Not sure if there are P:M vids on all of those, and there might be a few channels I'm missing, but that's the list I have.

btw, expect outdated vids to be taken down in the not-so-distant future, once we get Melee hitboxes perfected.

much obliged =)
i got all of them now thnx ^_^

 

[SymphonicSage12]

once we get Melee hitboxes perfected.

....


melee physics deciphered?
landing detection sort of figured out?
Melee hitboxes are being perfected?


Well that speeds things up a bit

 

[JCaesar]

Well, KB and trajectory and the easy stuff, anyway. Hitbox sizes might still take some work.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Yes but that's still certainly doable.

One of the biggest obstacles always mentioned was landing detection, and since Dantarion has made a major breakthrough with that...

 

[Archangel]

precisely. the fact that low tiers in a good player's hand can already destroy top tiers makes me wholeheartedly believe that simply making everyone else better will fix the issue perfectly. nerfs are stupid unless you wear mittens and clown shoes.. wield a daggar thing and say "victory is my destiny" when you win like the little conceited ***** you are..

LOLWut???? Mittens??? *lost*

but yeah you pretty much got it.

 

[GameWatching]

being add FG elements :

and i will fix the platforms and the trees lately !

 

[SymphonicSage12]

He's talking about Metaknight if you couldn't tell >.>

EDIT: Gamewatching, more amazing work from you! The two side platforms need to be farther out though.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm pretty sure no top tiers had trouble getting KOs at 120%. And that's where we're aiming for balance.

Marth actually does to an extent. His quick moves stop setting up for kills at that percentage.

He can spam Fsmash, and Nair hoping for a kill, but can't set up easily or at all into those two sometimes.

Its why Marth players typically ban Dreamland 64.

But Marth is good and fine, and it's an acceptable weakness in his metagame.

 

[stingers]

^ also because you can ONLY land tipper utilts when they're on platforms (and that move is decently hard to space right). and marth has **** horizontal recovery and that stage encourages it

 

[OverLade]

To people who are worried about balance in this game, atm I don't see any sort of problem. I was playing last night with a friend and came up with a few things.

Fox and Falco definitely don't seem overly good at all yet. Almost every character that runs fast or has good range will have good tech chase game on them (techs will be sped up and we'll see how much this holds true). Snake seems really good against spacies (amazing tech chase game) but has hard counters with DK, Marth and Sheik. Puff seems really gay but her brawl hitbox nerfs alone should eliminate her balance problem and characters that outspace her should probably have an advantage. Wolf seems even better than Fox and falco against heavier characters and will probably need some tweaking.

We're having a smashfest today and I'll do some more tests.

But as of now, don't assume anything about balance yet.

 

[GP&B]

I'm pretty sure no top tiers had trouble getting KOs at 120%. And that's where we're aiming for balance.

Ah, that makes a bit more sense. I'm going go play Melee at some point during the day to refresh my memory, but I know Link has such a crappy time killing or at least his Fair does (IIRC, I'm killing with it at 150%). I always felt like he had terrible KO power.

 

[I R MarF]

being add FG elements :
*Prosky Yoshi's Story by GameWatching*

and i will fix the platforms and the trees lately !

Incredible as always GameWatching. Keep it up.

 

[GP&B]

is released

http://forums.kc-mm.com/Gallery/BrawlView.php?Number=10080&Moderated=All

Posted this here for those who don't usually read the BrawlBox Creation thread. Awesome work, GW.

 

[L/A/W]

incredible work GW!
are you doing fox next? (please say yes)

 

[Revven]

He said he would do him next so yes he is.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

I absolutely love the Falco model.

and to whoever said no top/high tier characters had trouble getting KOs at 120% in Melee: Marth and Peach say hellooo

Marth can really only kill at 120% with tipper up smash and tipper up tilt or tipper nair...and sometimes those are hard to set up (someone already said all this but w/e)

Peach can really only kill at 120% with Up smash sweetspot or charged racket sweetspot. And Peach doesn't have a good wavedash for spacing, so kills can be difficult for her since she is very slow compared to fox, falco, etc.