Project M Social Thread

[DrinkingFood]

Idk man, I was just using gimmick in the way I've heard it used by countless melee commentators
I don't want to call them noob swatters, because these will stand the test of time.
I know that even by my definition, I was using gimmick wrong. Please calm down, I didn't mean to anger you.

Not angry really, just a pet peeve. But tbh yeah the commentators abuse the word too, it's just become a word people use to describe things they don't like. That's why I have a problem with it, it's just become this trump card where if you don't like something you can call it a gimmick and it seems like it's suddenly a bad thing. Don't worry about it too much, just letting you know it'll make everyone's conversations a lot more understandable if we use different more descriptive words to describe things we don't like.

 

[bubbaking]

It's almost impossible to one-shot. It's got recover to outlast spinners.

I would honestly never try to one-shot it though, hence why I (and most people around that time, apparently) would aim for Toxic or WoW (sometimes, my Forry could get it with T.spikes). Blissey out-walls it if it comes down to a 'wall war' for some reason. My Forry also used to run Toxic, so it wouldn't outlast that spinner either. HP Fire would be a problem, though, but I literally saw ZERO Deo-D's use that against me. I guess people wised up.

It also now has nasty plot, which probably won't be very common but it's just icing on the cake.

Did it get that with BW2? How would NP really help it much, outside of boosting HP Fire if you're running it? Giving up two of the moveslots of a Pokemon that seems to be hard-wired to be a wall just to stop a check/counter doesn't really seem very feasible. I don't see Deo-D doing well offensively. I'd rather use the Fire Gem option you mentioned.

 

[Spiffykins]

You got it DMG. I think lead Deo d is ironically one of the reasons hyper offense is so effective. You set up what you can right away, disrupt with red card or fire gem, let it die, then keep offensive pressure and force as many switches as possible. Nobody's using it to really wall anything, as far as I know.

 

[DMG]

Nasty Plot could open up the door to beating certain counters, or surprising people who throw out their own walls/bulky Pokemon to handle him. His role would still be lead Spiking though, don't worry about it too much.


Aiming for Toxic or WoW is too slow, people realized basically. He still gets Spikes out doing so. And depending on what Pokemon you were sending out to do that job, if he had the surprise move/gem on you then you tended to lose a Pokemon for no reason. The idea of a Spiker who can situationally deal with some of his counters, who is already hard to beat down with great stats on both spectrum + recovery + more speed and offensive stats than other Spikers, this is all kind of powerful for the role he plays.

 

[bubbaking]

It's weird. Deo-D himself doesn't feel too powerful for OU, but the way the metagame plays out he looks pretty efficient sometimes.

In Ubers, using him would be incredibly frustrating IMO. More taunt users, harder hitters, more Pokemon to setup on him.


In OU, he's literally the only choice for an offensive Spiker. He's also the hardest Spiker to counter in the game hands down. Because of that, leading with him is really solid and most teams are limited to not even preventing him from getting hazards, but just limiting him to 1-2 things of Spikes. That's pretty powerful, but again it's not really that he's too good. It's mostly that he's just the hardest Spiker to stop, and the hardest to kill for a multitude of reasons. He's not sweeping or demolishing the Metagame, but he is dominant at his role and there is NO variety for what he does in another Pokemon.

Uhhhhh, isn't this why Deo-S was eventually banned?

 

[DMG]

Deo-S is super duper fast/harder to stop, and he also can set up speedier dual screen (which can be incredibly lame and much harder to stop in OU). People that could taunt or attack faster than Deo-D, don't have that luxury vs Deo-s. You can also run gimmick sets like Trick Scarf to cripple their lead and still be amazing at setting up hazards.

Deo-S is over centralized at doing that role, and if legal in OU plenty of battles would literally be Deo-s Lead dittos with the person moving first winning due to Taunt/their hazards going up. If they both setup at the same time, then the metagame is still that same Pokemon on 85% of teams setting up hazards. Not healthy at all, and not entirely comparable to Deo-D

 

[Spiffykins]

I would honestly never try to one-shot it though, hence why I (and most people around that time, apparently) would aim for Toxic or WoW (sometimes, my Forry could get it with T.spikes). Blissey out-walls it if it comes down to a 'wall war' for some reason. My Forry also used to run Toxic, so it wouldn't outlast that spinner either. HP Fire would be a problem, though, but I literally saw ZERO Deo-D's use that against me. I guess people wised up.

Did it get that with BW2? How would NP really help it much, outside of boosting HP Fire if you're running it? Giving up two of the moveslots of a Pokemon that seems to be hard-wired to be a wall just to stop a check/counter doesn't really seem very feasible. I don't see Deo-D doing well offensively. I'd rather use the Fire Gem option you mentioned.

Like I said, it's probably never going to see much use. You'd basically have to bank on your opponent assuming it's a typical set for the first NP, use its bulk to get away with a second, and THEN maybe you'd do some decent damage.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3479059

Since we're on the topic, Create-a-Pokemon is just starting a new project. The concept is to make a pokemon that will reduce the popularity of certain types and give a boost to other underused types. Should be interesting, if any of you are on Smogon, check it out.

 

[bubbaking]

Lovin' how the topics of this social thread change every day.

In any case, I don't think Deo-D is banworthy. This Uber-suspect thing you speak of should come and go, although...............I've noticed that when something becomes suspect, it starts a 'mindset' that's hard to stop, kinda like starting an avalanche. Once you drop a little snow, you can't stop the snow-slide.

#BadAnalogies

 

[DMG]

Most suspect stuff is lame. There are very few times I have looked at suspect testing, and seen a Pokemon go to Ubers that I thought should have stayed in OU. In fact, the reversal of bringing Pokemon back down from Ubers is usually the wrong move instead. Thank god Lat was moved back to Uber in Gen 4... It's like they flipped out with Soul Dew removed and thought they would be ok for OU. Yeah right loool.

Suspect testing also tends to take a LONGGGGG time to complete/start up. It really takes a massive effort for those things to go through, besides stuff that gets banned relatively early. They tend to make the right call, usually a bit slow but that's expected I guess.

There are a few things that get cries for suspect testing, that I don't think will hold up. Banning Drizzle completely probably won't happen, even if it's a bit lame for the metagame. Terrakion at one point during BW1 was getting calls and rumors of suspect testing, didn't go through IIRC but was being considered.

 

[Spiffykins]

I guess Kyurem-b is this generation's Lati@s, then.

 

[DMG]

The Ice typing is always the main question of where to place it. It's hard to argue sometimes that he's too hard to stop, when Mach Punch Bullet Punch and SR crap on him so hard lol. If he gets in safely, your check better be ready for the ****storm that will ensue.


If there was a BL tier inbetween OU and Ubers, I think he would be perfect for it. I have seen some scary ideas for that Poke, I'm just superrrr glad the Ice typing does him no real favors. Like certain Sub and Expert Belt sets are dirty as a mother ****er and change the whole game instantly.

 

[bubbaking]

Right before I quit, I decided to have a little run with Kyurem-B and was quite happy when he literally won me 10 out of 10 games on the ladder. I know his speed is a little lackluster, but it was quite satisfying killing things with CB Freeze Shock even though the move gives you an entire turn to prepare for the storm. That was just icing on the cake compared to all his other stuff, though. Seriously, the fact that Pokemon can run mixed without a hitch is really good.

Edit: But that's one poke for which there really is little need to, outside of being a little paranoid.

Most suspect stuff is lame. There are very few times I have looked at suspect testing, and seen a Pokemon go to Ubers that I thought should have stayed in OU. In fact, the reversal of bringing Pokemon back down from Ubers is usually the wrong move instead. Thank god Lat was moved back to Uber in Gen 4... It's like they flipped out with Soul Dew removed and thought they would be ok for OU. Yeah right loool.

So then, what's your position on Rough Skin Chomp being made legal?

 

[DMG]

Chomp is completely different. Part of the reason he was Uber was because checks/counters to him were never guaranteed with Sand up. Even if you make the right call, send in the Starmie or Ice Beam that's faster than him or can tank the hit, you can miss because of Sand Veil. This is frustrating and not very healthy because of the luck factor. Without this factor, he's much easier to stop.


The problem has never been outspeeding or doing enough damage, or even finding a safe switchin for the initial moment Chomp gets in. The issue was always that you were rolling the dice due to a lame Ability, and that plenty of games could hinge on whether your counter would get through Veil. With Team Preview, it's also easier to know when they might throw out Garchomp and using less vulnerable moves/giving him less safe opportunities to come in. Gen 4, Veil was legal and team preview wasn't there AND Sand was the dominant because there was no OU Drizzle or Drought until Gen 5. No team preview, Sand everywhere, meant he could come in on opportune times quite a bit and set up and you better hope you had a counter AND that he hit through the ability. With other weather in place, with veil banned, he's completely healthy for the metagame. Also, more Scarf users and power creep + Priority running around a lot keeps him in check more often too.

On a lesser note, Sand Veil % chance to evade was BUFFED in BW. It would not have been acceptable even at 20%, but this was more reason to ban it. For all of the people who complained about the Garchomp ban in DPPt, I don't think they understood how often Sand Veil would come into play for him, and how unreliable it made his counters for no reason.

 

[bubbaking]

I.............find it hard to argue the "luck factor" when we're playing a game that makes it a point to be on good terms with Providence. <_____<

Edit: Never knew Veil was buffed in BW, though. What % did it become after that?

 

[DMG]

Veil went from 20% to 25%. Again, not so huge that it's an obvious ban, but more reason to get rid of it.


Pokemon has luck in it, and sure we've all had games lost due to a crit or a miss from an inaccurate move. But this was a roll of the dice, that could completely ruin even "perfect" counters, with as little skill or input involved as possible. If you use an attack that happens to crit, you still have to pick it and get lucky and have it be significant enough to impact the match. If a move has less than perfect accuracy, you usually have the opportunity of a less powerful, but more accurate, move. Also could opt for accuracy increasing moves or items, even if they are clearly unviable.

If Sand Veil kicks in, you literally didn't have to do anything, the chance of it happening is much higher than the random crit freeze etc, AND it tends to impact the game incredibly moreso than those events. When you toss that onto a Pokemon that can make fantastic use of a counter removed or a free turn of setup, along with still retaining that chance every turn afterwards to negate the move, that's really lame and powerful and even more dice rolling than people are cool with. Can't blame them.

Late times. Goin to bed, Pokemon talks shall continue later.

TL:DR

With Veil banned under Evasion, with other Weather prominent in play and more scarf/power/priority running around, Garchomp is completely healthy and fine in OU.

 

[bubbaking]

Alright, that's understandable.

#

I do stand by my hatred of Snakes missiles and Downsmash, however. Maybe it's because I play a fast faller usually, but I can't stand being tossed into a death move or having a missle dropped on my up-b.
not unfair or easy, (i can't do it), just gimmicky to the max.

Lolz, I'm surprised you didn't mention his C4. Uthrow > uair > ......................now.

Dead at 70%

 

[BrandX]

Oh man I cant remember the last time I played pokemon. I think I stopped at HeartGold lol

 

[Vashimus]

If there was a BL tier inbetween OU and Ubers, I think he would be perfect for it. I have seen some scary ideas for that Poke, I'm just superrrr glad the Ice typing does him no real favors. Like certain Sub and Expert Belt sets are dirty as a mother ****er and change the whole game instantly.

Well, the whole point Ubers was created was to be a banlist (BL) for OU. Having another just doesn't make that much sense.

On the topic of bans, the semi-recent Tornadus-T ban, I'm glad happened.

 

[standardtoaster]

hate pokemon discussion. it always lasts for like a million pages :/

 

[Vashimus]

hate pokemon discussion. it always lasts for like a million pages :/

But....but...ST...this is the Social Thread...

[collapse=ST's response]

[/collapse]

 

[Kink-Link5]

Wait so sand veil by itself is wholesale banned but stuff like Hydro Pump that already has a chance of missing is okay? Even though a crucial hit or miss will have a huge effect on the match in both cases?

 

[Gimpel]

pokemon has luck management in every round on almost every move (min max dmg, chance of hitting someone, random status effects etc)
what would be the point of banning 97% of the game and what is fun again I forgot sry

 

[Vashimus]

And yet ironically, here you are on Smashboards, where people play Smash competitively and ban stages and turn off items just like Smogon bans OP moves, Pokemon, and abilities.

What's the point of criticizing the ruleset of a metagame you know nothing about? I forgot, sorry.

It's like when members of the FGC say the Smash ruleset of turning off items and banning stages is stupid. If you don't even know enough about the competitive scene to begin with, then you really have no room to complain about it in the first place. And that goes for everything, not just Pokemon or Smash.

 

[Gimpel]

I am not quite sure if you're critizising me but first, I think I know what Pokemon is about, having played it for some years (Top 8 VGC 2010 in Cologne) and second, I think the ruleset generally is fine, the comment about banning 97% was directed to the poster before me who said one should ban hydro pump because of how it is random iirc. If it was for me, the ruleset wouldn't have to be changed (aside from few tier list placements), but I think he was proposing a much bigger change in the ruleset

if he was proposing sand veil to be unbanned, then that's at least discussable, but kink-link is that kind of guy that I could see banning every random move in the game lol

/e banning all random elements would be literally like 97% of the game, unlike smash, where weird stages and items play not that big of a role

 

[Stevo]

thank god the project M streams will be all in one place now and I don't have to check here.

*unsubscribes*

 

[Vashimus]

Generally, you have a choice in that matter, and Pokemon is a game that both highly rewards and brutally punishes taking risks. A lot of high power moves have negative side-effects to counteract them. Hydro Pump grants you a powerful Water attack, but hits 80% of the time. Aside from the shaky accuracy, there's no other drawback, and the sheer power can be useful for netting you some crucial KOs. If you care reliability over power, you can opt for Surf, which has perfect accuracy, and while still powerful, might not net as many KOs. It all depends on what kind of risk taker you are. Some Pokemon have no choice but to use innaccurate moves, and this is usually because it's still the best option available for them. Critical hits, you'll grow to love and hate.

Sand Veil (and by extention, Snow Cloak in hail) is totally different. So long as sandstorm is up, all of the opponents moves have 75% accuracy or lower. Garchomp easily took advantage of this to set up free subs and Swords Dances on Pokemon that couldn't ever touch him, like Rotom-W.

 

[DMG]

Wait so sand veil by itself is wholesale banned but stuff like Hydro Pump that already has a chance of missing is okay? Even though a crucial hit or miss will have a huge effect on the match in both cases?

Yeah, that's fine for many reasons. Moves like Hydro Pump HAVE 100% perfect accuracy alternatives: You have Surf, Flamethrower, Thunderbolt, Ice Beam, etc to compere with Hydro Pump/Fire Blast/Thunder outside of rain/Blizzard. When you choose these moves, you make the calculated risk of dealing more damage in exchange for less than perfect accuracy. This is a player decision, a calculated one, and is not entirely comparable to random crits/freeze/hax.


When a person uses a less than perfect move, they take on the risk accordingly and were given ample opportunity to choose a different move if they were worried about a miss. If you have a problem with Hydro Pump, then explain how a Pokemon ability that turns GOOD, perfect hitting moves into Hydropump or worse accuracy is ok? Imagine how it would feel to say fine, I won't take the risk I will run Surf to hit him. WAIT, VEIL KICKED IN I MISSED! Because that's what Veil in Sand does, and there is nothing the opponent can realistically do to get around that % chance. If Hydro Pump should be banned, then a Pokemon ability that literally has the chance to cripple any offensive attack AT A RATE HIGHER than moves like Hydro Pump would naturally miss, is instant ban status lol.


If every move in the game was perfect accuracy, then you would simply chose the move with more power 95% of the time unless you were worried about PP issues (mostly Ubers due to Pressure). You would cut down the viable movepool even further and the game would have much less to "think" about. The power difference between Flamethrower and Fire Blast can be the difference between a 3HKO and a 2HKO, so you have to plan accordingly on both sides knowing this. If Fire Blast was perfect, then noone would run Flamethrower and you've arguably dumbed down the game by doing so.


TL:DR

You don't ban less than perfect accuracy moves, but you do tend to make sure that 100% accuracy stuff doesn't randomly fail because of Evasion, because that introduces unfun and harmful dice rolls. For abilities and moves to ruin the "Surfs" of the game, is no bueno.

 

[bubbaking]

Well, the whole point Ubers was created was to be a banlist (BL) for OU. Having another just doesn't make that much sense.

Actually, BL stands for Borderline even though every BL tier is essentially a "banlist" for the tier below it. We already have a BL and a BL2 Tier, Ubers is so big that it's shaping up its own competitive metagame, and there are a bunch of Pokemon who really aren't up to par at all with the rest of the pokes in that tier. Maybe after gen 6 comes out, a 'BL3' might be a good idea.

hate pokemon discussion. it always lasts for like a million pages :/

Then why don't you suggest a topic for us to discuss? You're always quiet...

Wait so sand veil by itself is wholesale banned but stuff like Hydro Pump that already has a chance of missing is okay? Even though a crucial hit or miss will have a huge effect on the match in both cases?

Lolz, I'm sorry but your ignorance here is SCREAMING. Sand Veil is banned because the one being attacked is unfairly raising his chances of completely evading a move that would have normally killed him. Snow Cloak is also banned for the same reason, despite Hail being the absolute worst weather and the fact that, even up to the time of its banning, Snow Cloak wasn't on a single OU-viable Pokemon. Hydro Pump and ALL OTHER MOVES IN THE GAME are legal because it's the attacker who makes the choice to use these moves, comparing the risk of their accuracy to the reward of their power and/or effects. If you don't like Hydro Pump, then don't use it. You have no choice in the matter of facing someone else's Sand Veil Garchomp. Like, really, these two aren't comparable in the slightest.

Bans are for keeping smart/lucky people from using broken tactics, not encouraging dumb/unlucky people to make smart ones. Nobody cares if multiple people use Hydro Pump and miss because it's their fault for running that move.

 

[Vashimus]

You also have to take into account DMG, that some Pokemon have no better alternatives but to use inaccurate moves. In terms of Rock moves, you're left with Rock Slide and Stone Edge. And Rock Slide's 75 power is just too weak by the current metagame's standards.

 

[MonkUnit]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrVgLvoG5o0

 

[DMG]

!!!

Wat

10wat

 

[bubbaking]

Is he removing the game and putting in another when the system starts calling/looking for the next level to load up?

 

[Vashimus]

Actually, BL stands for Borderline even though every BL tier is essentially a "banlist" for the tier below it. We already have a BL and a BL2 Tier, Ubers is so big that it's shaping up its own competitive metagame, and there are a bunch of Pokemon who really aren't up to par at all with the rest of the pokes in that tier. Maybe after gen 6 comes out, a 'BL3' might be a good idea.


Lolz, I'm sorry but your ignorance here is SCREAMING. Sand Veil is banned because the one being attacked is unfairly raising his chances of completely evading a move that would have normally killed him. Snow Cloak is also banned for the same reason, despite Hail being the absolute worst ability and the fact that, even up to the time of its banning, Snow Cloak wasn't on a single OU-viable Pokemon. Hydro Pump and ALL OTHER MOVES IN THE GAME are legal because it's the attacker who makes the choice to use these moves, comparing the risk of their accuracy to the reward of their power and/or effects. If you don't like Hydro Pump, then don't use it. You have no choice in the matter of facing someone else's Sand Veil Garchomp. Like, really, these two aren't comparable in the slightest.

Bans are for keeping smart/lucky people from using broken tactics, not encouraging dumb/unlucky people to make smart ones. Nobody cares if multiple people use Hydro Pump and miss because it's their fault for running that move.

I know, but Borderline sounds so stupid to me.

Whether or not the Pokemon does well in Ubers is irrelevant, since all Ubers have one thing in common: they create an unhealthy OU metagame. While Ubers became it's own playable tier, especially due to how big it's gotten over the years, it still retains it's main purpose as the ban list for OU. Adding another BL is rather pointless, since Ubers IS the BL.

I think Mamoswine is the only prominent user of Snow Cloak in OU. I missed three ****ing times with moves that would've killed.

....Jeez Bubba, don't bite Kinky's head off.

 

[standardtoaster]

thank god the project M streams will be all in one place now and I don't have to check here.

*unsubscribes*

only tourneys are going on the projectmelee twitch. smashfests and the like are on personal ones.

 

[bubbaking]

....Jeez Bubba, don't bite Kinky's head off.

Lolz, you're talking to me?

if he was proposing sand veil to be unbanned, then that's at least discussable, but kink-link is that kind of guy that I could see banning every random move in the game lol

 

[standardtoaster]

why the **** do you use that smiley so much

 

[bubbaking]

Why the **** not? It's there so I use it.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Bridges are there so why don't you jump off one?

Spoiler

nobody ever does things just 'cause

 

[bubbaking]

I do have rules.

I think Mamoswine is the only prominent user of Snow Cloak in OU. I missed three ****ing times with moves that would've killed.

Wow, Mamoswine is yet another Pokemon that was UU back when I started playing but must have moved up into OU at some point. Also, funny stuff...
http://www.smogon.com/bw/pokemon/mamoswine/uu
As you can see, the link says "uu" at the end, but the tier displayed next to Mamo's name clearly says "OU". However, upon reading the Overview, I came across the following words:
"Mamoswine is, without question, one of the most awesome offensive forces of the UU metagame. Rotom-H, Rotom-F, Cryogonal, and Shedinja are the only Pokemon in UU that resist its STAB combination. With base 130 Attack, it has the fourth strongest Earthquake and the strongest physical Ice-type attack in the entire game! Ice and Ground are two of the best offensive types and, when combined together on a powerhouse like Mamoswine in the unprepared UU metagame, heads will roll (or be stomped in). There is nothing in the entire metagame that wants to switch into a Mamoswine."
Looks like Smogon forgot to adjust their write-up when this poke moved up. Better go alert that PK Gaming guy.

............................................................................................

Edit: Holy cow, how old is that overview that it's talking about Shedinja and Cryogonal in a UU metagame? That summary must be from even further back than when I started playing BW online. I don't remember Cryo being anything higher than solidly RU.

 

[Vashimus]

You know Mew is UU now?

Smogon is always a little bit late with those kinds of things. Garchomp still had his uber analysis even when moved to OU.

@toaster, because Jolteon touches him at night.

EDIT: Uh, I think it's just putting it into perspective as to how strong Mamoswine is Bubba. How only these Pokemon that are rarely seen resist its STAB combination.