Project M Social Thread

[hotdogturtle]

Wait so sand veil by itself is wholesale banned but stuff like Hydro Pump that already has a chance of missing is okay? Even though a crucial hit or miss will have a huge effect on the match in both cases?

I know that this post was already responded to, but Sand Veil is an ability that has a chance to luck you out in your favor, while Hydro Pump and other low accuracy moves would affect the match against your favor. They're not comparable at all.

 

[bubbaking]

@Vash: Actually, I've always known Mew was UU. When I used to play a lot, Mew, Celebi, Mamoswine, Deo-D, Metagross, and some others were all UU, but apparently they all, except Mew, moved out.

Edit responding to your edit: That logic would work, Vash, if the write-up didn't say "[These pokes] are the only Pokemon in UU that resist its STAB combination." Besides, there are other pokes that resist that combo, aren't there? Like Water/Ice pokes.

 

[Vashimus]

Oh. Well Tornadus and Mienshao are UU now. Only other ones I can think of.

Bronzong resists Ice and is immune to Ground, but that was likely written before he was UU. Water/Ice is neutral to Ground, but it doesn't even matter because Mamoswine learns Superpower.

 

[Oro?!]

Because he wants this thread to be cancer @toast

 

[standardtoaster]

makes sense kyle

 

[Jolteon]

@toaster, because jolteon touches him at night.

O_O

10char

 

[Plum]

Too much in here.

Not enough

 

[Kink-Link5]

Where are my :CinnaminSon:s at?

 

[DMG]

Awwww yeeeeaaaa

 

[Vashimus]

 

[Spiffykins]

thank god the project M streams will be all in one place now and I don't have to check here.

*unsubscribes*

Bye!

 

[iLink]

Mew is still UU? I remember cockblocking most UU teams I came up against with him when I still played a few months back. What's stopping him from OU?

 

[Vashimus]

It enjoyed a short stint in OU, but then it shortly went back to UU because it simply wasn't getting enough usage.

It's kinda surprising that such a powerful and versatile Pokemon doesn't see much usage. No doubt 5th gen's power creep played a huge part. It's the same thing with Wobbuffet, although I REALLY don't know why he isn't used more, since he's still just as dangerous as he was in past gens.

 

[Kink-Link5]

So why are pokemon tiers made for usage instead of divided by pokemon that break entire teams of pokemon below them? Magikarp gets used a lot and now it suddenly breaks NU teams?

If they aren't divided by usage anymore than nevermind, but that does make it weird to call them "Overused" like that somehow makes them break UU teams.

 

[DMG]

It's sorta both. Here I'll get into it:

You have 3 tiers kinda close together below Ubers. OU is the standard Metagame and is everything minus Ubers. Right under that, you have UU which is full of Pokemon that work less efficiently than their OU counter parts basically (or they might have a noticeable typing flaw that gets to them).


However, inbetween OU and UU, you have the BL/Borderline tier. These Pokemon are too centralizing to the UU metagame, but they may not really be up to par for the OU meta. Listing them as OU material would be misleading, and almost always proves itself with Usage and win stats. Because of this, it tends to prove that they are statistically not useful enough to be labeled OU, and are basically put into BL for the sake of the UU metagame.

They do a ton of analysis every month on Usage and Win rates, and it's near impossible for one person (or even a select few) to shift a character's usage so significantly, like the Magikarp example. You have different sets of data as well, like using different Ratings as a baseline for what counts. Or top 100 on the ladder (assuming they play enough games), you can have their stats vs anyone over idk 1700 or something that would put you into the top few hundred. Or even drop further down if you wanted to. Usage, how often that Pokemon shows up on both teams at the same time, what sets are being used on Pokemon, and I'm pretty sure they also (if not recently) have certain win rates available too. Like say a top tier OU pokemon has roughly 16% usage overall, and not counting dittos wins 64%+ of the time. You can't "fake" usage and also be successful at those kinds of levels, certainly not as you progress the ladder.

With 4th and 5th gen, the overall "mark" to hit for OU usage usually hovers around the 50th mark. They calculate and hold stats, even for the random "16" people that used a really dumb UU/NU Pokemon on their team. Statistically, you drop into incredibly low usage %'s and win rates past that point of 50ish.

TL:DR

You can't get away with using a really crappy Pokemon, win a ton, and boost them up to OU alone. It tends to take multiple top players contributing to that Pokemon, and occasionally Pokemon who are more than capable of doing a specific role, who are already in OU, get glossed over for "worse" Pokemon that can stop very specific threats the person's team might struggle against a bit more than usual. The risk being if they don't run into those Pokemon, their "CP" Pokemon from UU tends to not be that useful and even further demonstrates itself in battles why it isn't really OU material. A perfect example would be Slowbro or Amoonguss for their specific walling capabilities vs specific threats. They clearly aren't OU material, but they can find minor niche's in the metagame and can have solid usage due to this.

 

[Kink-Link5]

But the point still stands with something like, as an example of one I recall classically always being OU- Tentacruel. Is there anything specifically within Tentacruel's function that makes him destroy low tiers? I understand that "BL isn't good enough to be used in OU, but they break UU" but what about OU pokemon that DON'T break the capability for UU pokemon to perform?

I don't know if Tentacruel is OU anymore or if there was anything done exploring such an idea to see if he does wreck the UU Pokemon, but it's just a specific example that always seemed wasn't that overpowering for a metagame laden with Electric types and mixed bags to deal with.

My point wasn't so much that you could ruin the whole flow of the tiers by using a pokemon until it is "OU," but that banning pokemon from lower tiers strictly for their usage in higher ones is just a little bizarre.

In Brawl, Yoshi is considered to have niche matchups against IC's, MK, and Wario, but that doesn't make him better than the low tiers around him that still can go toe to toe with him.

 

[Jolteon]

www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL2odLL1MNaknt96A8xed1y4QGVe2XuFUO

Videos from LAC.

Still in the process of uploading them all.

 

[DrinkingFood]

what the **** is wrong with my wii
it just refuses to cooperate

 

[DMG]

What Pokemon in OU fit that category? I can't think of many Pokemon in OU that would be "fine" for the UU metagame. I believe you're overthinking the realistic possibility of a "bad" Pokemon somehow sneaking into OU. A Pokemon doesn't have to necessarily dominate from the perspective of Sweeping or killing other Pokemon, for it to be OU status.


Tentacruel in UU would be the best Toxic Spiker, the best Toxic Spike absorber, and one of the faster/better SP Def Bulky Pokemon. Sure you can fry him with Electric attacks, but Pokemon even under UU can kill him if they are appropriate enough. That's not what holds a Pokemon back: the test isn't whether to hold back a Pokemon because they hold an obscure RU/NU/UU counter. It's how well they do with the rest of the "titans" in each group, and if they can't stand up to them then you move it down a tier until it can. Tentacruel is fine enough to run in OU, he does well in Rain and contributes to stall teams with Toxic Spikes/tanking certain Specials. In UU, you wouldn't see the Rain aspect but he would almost be the only "real" Toxic Spiker/Absorber and he would be centralized in that role/would always find a place on stall teams regardless of Weather due to this. If your UU team was stall, and Tentacruel was legal, I dunno what you are doing if you aren't running him. Doesn't matter if Zapdos or Electric type is in UU, if he does the job more than adequately enough and there aren't alternatives for the role he plays/always used.


To clarify even further, you have to understand that tiers don't suddenly change month by month if a Pokemon happens to break top 50 or a shift occurs. People take note of trends and see whether a Pokemon consistently does well/gets used/what sets are working and vs what teams they are working against. Much more thought and time goes into establishing the tiers than you're probably guessing, especially when it comes to crafting OU and protecting UU. There are no real "examples" of Yoshi's and Ness's and crappy Pokemon suddenly being OU status for no reason. Generally if a Pokemon gets bumped up a notch, it proves this through monthsssssssss of hard data in its favor. Random Magikarp Lover 69 doesn't ****ing get him into OU, ever lol. It doesn't happen. Now, certain Pokemon have moved from OU down if they fall out of usage and this tends to correspond with shifts in the Metagame which make them less relavant. In either case, really bad or undeserving Pokemon tend to not make it to OU, and certainly don't stay there if it's a fluke.

 

[standardtoaster]

http://www.smashboards.com/forumdisplay.php?f=57

you guys know there's a forum for this. please take your discussion there

 

[bubbaking]

Oh. Well Tornadus and Mienshao are UU now. Only other ones I can think of.

Bronzong resists Ice and is immune to Ground, but that was likely written before he was UU. Water/Ice is neutral to Ground, but it doesn't even matter because Mamoswine learns Superpower.

Tornadus, I knew about, and I blame his typing, his shallow movepool, and the fact that he's simply outclassed by the other two genies at what he does (why the heck are two genies so good in rain, anyway?). Even with Thundurus banned, I don't really see any reason to run Tornadus. I'm not too sure about Mienshao because I rarely saw it (you know he's going to Fake Out, but maybe this has changed).

I knew about Bronzong, but he's only immune to ground if you give up his Fire 'resistance'. I purposefully didn't list him because some people would rather run Heatproof instead of Levitate. It depends on what kinds of counters you want him to be able to combat, but I think most people like to go with Levitage because of the obiquitous EdgeQuake combination.

I know Water/Ice is weak to Superpower, but I was just responding to your statement about those pokes being the 'only pokes to resist the Ice/Ground attacking combo'. Besides, Cryogonal is weak to Superpower as well, and he was mentioned.

However, I realize why I came across that archaic write-up:
www.smogon.com/bw/pokemon/mamoswine
http://www.smogon.com/bw/pokemon/mamoswine/uu
See the difference? It seems like his old write-up was preserved under its old address, even though there is no longer a UU Overview tab available to click on.

Because he wants this thread to be cancer @toast

Why do you guys take issue with how I use emoticons? Like, seriously. That's more immature than my usage of smileys in the first place (which I have no issue with). Some of you have dumb sigs (What the heck's up with "Smooth Criminal" anyway? That song was good, but it wasn't so good to keep repeating it after every post, but hey, whatever makes you tick, man). Some of you have your own weird quirks (Mad, why do you keep asking people so many weird personal questions sometimes?). Some of you have bizarre usernames (don't even have to give examples for this one; they're all over the place). Can't we all just.....get along and bicker about each other's opinions of Project M?

 

[DMG]

YOU'LL NEVER CATCH ME ALIVE COPPER!

MUAUAHAUHUHAHAHUAHUAHUA

...

Fine toaster, what a poopkilljoy you are

 

[bubbaking]

ST.....this is a social thread. When we were talking about P:M metagame stuff, Reflex asked us to stop. Now we're talking about non-P:M things and YOU'RE asking us to stop. Like, what do you want from us?

 

[ELI-mination]

#

 

[DMG]

!!!

Dat sig

10LeelueSonics

 

[bubbaking]

Yeah, I nearly fell off my chair rofl'ing when I saw that sig under his post earlier.

Mew is still UU? I remember cockblocking most UU teams I came up against with him when I still played a few months back. What's stopping him from OU?

Mew's bad typing and 'mediocre' stats, in all honesty, probably cause it to be overshadowed by the two other fairies in OU, Jirachi and Celebi. Mew has a great movepool and all, but its typing makes it a huge liability and its movepool really isn't enough to make an excuse for running it over the other two, who also boast great movepools on top of way better defensive typings, especially 'Rachi.

Edit: Jirachi in the rain (with a good core surrounding him) is possibly one of the cheapest things you will ever encounter in OU. I don't know why everyone likes that weird 'paraflinch hax' crap. I've always run CM + Psychic/Psyshock + T.bolt/Thunder and it's never failed me. It even counters those dumb Iron Head + Body Slam 'Rachis, so I don't know why everyone got such a hard-on for hax.

It's kinda surprising that such a powerful and versatile Pokemon doesn't see much usage. No doubt 5th gen's power creep played a huge part. It's the same thing with Wobbuffet, although I REALLY don't know why he isn't used more, since he's still just as dangerous as he was in past gens.

Read above regarding Mew (although I still think Celebi's being overrated now because its typing could potentially be both better and worse than Mew's ). As for Wobbufet, a few things just came together to hit Wobuffet pretty hard. Not only do Pokemon hit harder in general, but Encore was already nerfed (pretty severely too). Add in the introduction of two commonly-used attacking moves that let you switch (U-turn and Volt Switch) and you suddenly have a metagame in which Wobbufet simply has no place anymore. Poor guy.....

 

[standardtoaster]

it's ok since it's a social thread, but once it gets this far I think it'd be better to just take it to the pokemon section of smashboards

 

[bubbaking]

Well, I'll request again (to everyone, not just you): Supply a new topic. I'm here only for conversation, and since I'm fairly bored, I'm just responding to all the posts I can. Pokemon, Naruto, Brawl, JUST NAME IT!!!

 

[SpiderMad]

How do I record my hands while I'm sitting in a chair

 

[standardtoaster]

use a webcam

 

[DrinkingFood]

 

[Spiffykins]

Is anyone here in the NY capital region, or know anyone on the forums who is? I never see any tourneys in my area but maybe I can at least find someone to play with.

 

[bubbaking]

By "NY capital", you mean Albany? Isn't that, like, upstate? As in the hills?

Since this thread became boring again.....

So why are pokemon tiers made for usage instead of divided by pokemon that break entire teams of pokemon below them? Magikarp gets used a lot and now it suddenly breaks NU teams?

If they aren't divided by usage anymore than nevermind, but that does make it weird to call them "Overused" like that somehow makes them break UU teams.

On top of everything DMG said, usage tends to follow what's working really well at the time. Someone, oftentimes a top player, discovers something that works really well and starts using it in battles. Other players emulate him. As success of this poke/tactic spreads, more people opt to pick it up. This accounts for some of the usage 'swings' we see sometimes, but in all honesty, they're usually not that large unless something very game-changing has been discovered. If it's large enough to catapult a poke into OU, then it's probably legitimate for the time being, at least in the current metagame of that time.

 

[Vashimus]

Well, I'll request again (to everyone, not just you): Supply a new topic. I'm here only for conversation, and since I'm fairly bored, I'm just responding to all the posts I can. Pokemon, Naruto, Brawl, JUST NAME IT!!!

Let's talk about how adorable and Devicer-ish Standardtoaster's avatar is.

EDIT: Well, there are SOME Pokemon that are OU simply because of usage rather than actually being good in the lower tiers. Gastrodon is a great example of this.

 

[DrinkingFood]

We could talk about how to get homebrew working on my stubborn *** wii.

 

[SpiderMad]

Let's cry about how we are supposedly still missing Bamsey (Burnsey on here is a different person), TheDevicer, Naerok, and probably others. Well I think TheDevicer is still active on KCMM, so the really missing people are the two others then.

 

[DrinkingFood]

But why don't they just make accounts here? It's not particularly challenging, and even if you prefer other sites to this one, it's not like you should be, idk, offended by making an account here.

 

[DMG]

Let's talk about how adorable and Devicer-ish Standardtoaster's avatar is.

EDIT: Well, there are SOME Pokemon that are OU simply because of usage rather than actually being good in the lower tiers. Gastrodon is a great example of this.

Gastrodon may be one of the rare examples, and that's partly due to Drizzle being in OU. With Water everywhere, he can't do bad lol. Even in UU though, you can play him like a SP Def version of Swampert + Water immunity/boost + Recovery + Status spreader.

 

[Kink-Link5]

#freeinsanecarzyguy

 

[SpiderMad]

But why don't they just make accounts here? It's not particularly challenging, and even if you prefer other sites to this one, it's not like you should be, idk, offended by making an account here.

It seems they wanted their existence in the smash community to die along with the site