Project M Social Thread

[Kink-Link5]

My question is why people complain about those 2 gens and don't dare say a word about the rest, especially gen 1. Bad design is bad design is bad design. At least the generations after 1 are (with a few exceptions) creative. Magnezone is a far better evolution than Magneton, at least IMO.

Right, bad design is bad design. Using "Look at gen I" in defense of designs in gen 4 and 5 is just dumb. It's like a murderer going "Hey, look at those thieves before you look at me." I'm not defending Mr. Mime. It's when you have an entire group of 100+ Mr. Mimes and moustaches that it gets obnoxious.

TBH I'd more than likely be fine with half these third step evolutions if they were branched evolutions that weren't made just to outclass the originals.

Magnezone is ugly for the same reasons that Magneton is, with more random digivolution attachments.

Glad we can at least agree that the kamis are sins on life.

 

[F. Blue]

Trihex is streaming Project M.

 

[Oro?!]

Give Trihex some support!

 

[bubbaking]

On the topic of aesthetic Pokemon design, I would probably rank the gens something like this:
Gen 2 >= Gen 4 >> Gen 1 >= Gen 3 >>>>> Gen 5
Can you tell what gen I didn't like? Going by what I could see of the Gen 6 starters, it looks like Trollfreak's going to be even lazier come October.

This stage is ridiculously amazing and should replace Pokemon Stadium forever.

Seriously, just scroll through the screenshots and look at the huge amount of detail on that thing. It's like your traveling throughout the entire Jhoto region in several minutes.

It's cool and all, but why Pokemon Stadium? I kinda like that stage and there are worse things to replace, lolz!

Except that it is.

Magnezone kind of has no excuse for a crappy design concerning game freak had 3 generations of experience.

Complaining about Gen I designs is always hilarious to me.

Magnezone's design is a lot more original than Lickilicky's, lolz! What else do you want them to do? Magneton was already a 'Dugtrio-style' triple-Magnemite thing. They can't really do anything else, short of being completely outlandish to the evo's design, so they made one of the Magnemites the main core, which allowed them to be more flexible. Lickilicky is just a fat Lickitung. You can't get much more lazy than that.

tl;dr - The problem is with Gen 1 Magneton, not Gen 4 Magnezone. What they did with that Pokemon is pretty brilliant.

"Victini's cute looks have been the source of deception for many players, unaware of its true potential outside its competitively worthless title of 'Legendary'. Indeed, 100 base stats across the board are still solid, but by no means impressive in the current generation of Pokemon."

Base 100 stat totals are now **** tier by current pokemon standards. It's like Yu-Gi-Oh all over again.

RIP Red Eyes

Jirachi has base 100 stats across the board, and it is a very good 'Top Tier' Pokemon. It's not the stats. Victini's typing kinda sucks, its movepool is worse, and its role has already been filled by, like, everybody. We don't need any more fairies.

 

[Spiffykins]

No move pool that contains v-create can really be said to suck.

Also, in response to the Lucario critic, if you're eating 50% from a button mash-y combo you're either not DI-ing or you're playing a fat character and should be used to it by now.

 

[bubbaking]

The fact that Victini = V-create kinda tells you exactly why Victini sucks. You know almost EXACTLY what a Victini that comes in is going to do. If he doesn't OHKO you right away, he's not going to. His stats aren't amazing for this kind of job so he's forced to scarf or spec/band (forget which V-create is). It's just soooo easy to counter/check, and he's a one-shot kind of thing. I mean, if he's facing the very last Pokemon on your opponent's team, he could get work done, but..............no.

Spoiler

I like Project:M, don't get me wrong, and I play it often. But there are two main things that bother me.
1. Everything from Melee feels clunky. I can go straight from Melee to P:M, and my Marth and Falco and Fox will mess up techs that I was just doing perfectly in Melee. I notice it most with Falco and Marth. It's weird, Falco feels so slow in P:M, like he's weighted down with something, and he just feels so goshdarn CLUNKY.
2. I don't particularly like the way that every new addition to the Melee roster has become a gimmicky character. By this, I mean that each character has an obnoxious strategy that is over-centralizing to his gameplay. Examples:
Lucario's OHC system
ZSS Stun Gun and tether recovery
Rob's side-b air movement shenanigans
Squirtle's Shell Shifting
Diddy's Bananas
Ivysaur's....everything His g*****n vertical chasing seed thing and his f***ing shield-eating Razor leaf not to mention his easy as all hell recovery, talk about taking skill out of the game
Snake and his insanely obnoxious array of death projectiles
Sonic's side-b
Zelda's side-b
Ike's side b (to a lesser extent now than in 2.1)
etc.

The game is still fun and competitive, I just wish that the developers shifted more towards giving characters better overall moves and options, instead of giving characters one or two incredibly useful moves or tactics and basically saying "Hey, here's the amazing move, ABUSE IT". Give the characters good moves, the rest will come in time. The characters right now (most of the new ones) just feel infuriating and silly. I cannot stand, for instance, Lucario, as he takes (sorry for the people I will offend) little to no effort to combo with. My friend likes to spam buttons, and now that he plays Lucario in P:M, he thinks that it is a good strategy to mash A and the c-stick. And you know what I find most saddening? HE'S RIGHT. Not that I lose to him, he sucks, but a player with more spacing and mindgames could easily open me up and hit me with a "faceroll" combo. And my friend will constantly say after getting an easy 50% on me after I eat one dash attack, "That was a good combo right?" and I have to resist the urge to go into the files for P:M and somehow remove Lucario from the game.

And I get this feeling with plenty of characters.

All in all, the game isn't unbalanced, at least, I don't think so, but it's just so gimmicky. Move away from gimmicks, please, make the characters inherently better, don't give them ridiculously stupid gimmicks to power them up.

I'll probably get a lot of hate for this, who cares. I was just playing a long P:M session with my friends recently and was getting very annoyed (not that I was losing) and I started to realize why.

You and me are pals. You were a really nice guy when you came to my P:M tourney at SBU, but I'm going to have to disagree with you on almost all of your points. I'm a Lucario main myself, so... :3

And I secondary Snake, so.... :3

Also main ROB and Diddy..... :3

Don't play Zelda, though. Man, I hate that character! xp

 

[SunJester]

I think the Brawl characters in P:M tend to be less over centralizing and have a much more diverse move set then the average Melee character. I mean I can't think of a move that the PMBR has made that is as useless as Sing or Peach Bomber.

Plus Melee has a few characters that rely on one thing (Jiggs anyone?)

 

[JKJ]

Lol sorry Bubbaking, didn't mean to offend, kinda lost track on a semi-rant level
I main Diddy and ROB in P:M 2.5
I never said the characters were OP and unfun, just gimmicky. Idk, personal opinions are personal opinions and who cares what I think, I don't have less respect for you just because you are a lucario player just the same as I don't have less respect for jiggs/sheik players. The characters aren't my favorite, I'll be honest, and I don't like their attributes, but I can't do what other people can do with them, so I must be missing something.
the whole post should have ended before my anti lucario rant, but its late and I was in the moment. ehh, my main point was not unfairness, just silliness that feels wrong to me.
Although I agree, Zelda is so annoying. "Hey, lets let this character leave virtually infinite (up to three with the ability to place more as the old ones disappear) AERIAL MINES! That's a great idea!" again, not OP, just frustratingly silly.
I do stand by my hatred of Snakes missiles and Downsmash, however. Maybe it's because I play a fast faller usually, but I can't stand being tossed into a death move or having a missle dropped on my up-b.
not unfair or easy, (i can't do it), just gimmicky to the max.

tl;dr I didn't mean to sound so bitter or hateful against certain characters. All characters take skill, I just don't like the new gimmicks in P:M for the most part.

My post was supposed to be about that alone. Ah, the heat of the moment at 1:30 in the morning.

Also, Bubbaking, when's the next SBU? I'd love to go to another one.

 

[SunJester]

Just smack your way through Zelda's fireballs. I seriously think its one of her weaker moves, its not unusable but its not really all that good either.

(Don't tell this guy about Sonic's Down-B)

 

[bubbaking]

@JKJ: I believe it's April 13th. Will let you know when more info is available.

 

[JKJ]

which one is sonic's down-b again? I just hate all of his spin attacks so much I lose track. All I know is that hes a never ending flurry of obnoxious noises

and ok, hopefully I can go? Sounds fishy though, I feel like I may have plans that date...
actually, i think im clear then
and thanks, keep me informed.

 

[DrinkingFood]

@JKJ, dins fire is actually pretty mediocre on zelda. Not bad, I don't think, but zelda just feels really mediocre to me in general, the main reason din's fire sees the use it does it because it covers where she isn't, but it requires some serious set-up time, and is pretty easy for a lot of characters to get through. I really don't think it's over-centralizing at all.

Also are you sure you know what gimmick means? Because if so you're using incorrectly on purpose. If not, you're using it incorrectly on accident. Either way, you're using it incorrectly. As do, idk, like half the population of SWF.

 

[Spiffykins]

Its special set is pretty decent too when you consider the accuracy boost. Victini and Darmanitan are primary reasons 99% of Snorlaxes have Thick Fat by default, and Victini's v-create is still stronger than Darmanitan's Flare Blitz iirc. Walling powerhouses like them isn't something any ol' poke can do. Their efficacy usually boils down to whether you can make them outlast the one or two opposing team members capable of sponging a hit, and since v-create doesn't sap Victini's health there's sometimes no reason not to spam it.

I won't deny it's a little disappointing the current meta is dominated by super powerful spammers, but my opinion doesn't change the fact that it works.

 

[JKJ]

I love the dueling Pokemon design and P:M gimmick arguments going on
And DrinkingFood I know, a gimmick is a strategy or move that is useful at first, and seems overpowered, but doesn't hold up to metagame adjustments and changes in the long run. I didn't have a better word for the Project: M stuff though.

 

[bubbaking]

Its special set is pretty decent too when you consider the accuracy boost. Victini and Darmanitan are primary reasons 99% of Snorlaxes have Thick Fat by default, and Victini's v-create is still stronger than Darmanitan's Flare Blitz iirc. Walling powerhouses like them isn't something any ol' poke can do. Their efficacy usually boils down to whether you can make them outlast the one or two opposing team members capable of sponging a hit, and since v-create doesn't sap Victini's health there's sometimes no reason not to spam it.

I won't deny it's a little disappointing the current meta is dominated by super powerful spammers, but my opinion doesn't change the fact that it works.

Oh, well if we're talking UU, then I can see what you're talking about. This whole time, I thought we were talking with respect to OU's metagame (believe me, I used to see so many people try to make it work).

 

[DMG]

Vicinti isn't held down in viability for being a "one hit wonder" with V Create. He's held down because his typing is absolutely atrocious for surviving. He's weak to every entry hazard/takes quarter health on Stealth Rock. He's weak to Pursuit and Dugtrio trapping (although he can remedy this slightly with Uturn on the switch), and he can be easy to setup on once V Create is used.

Again though, the typing screws him over the most. Quite a few common weakness + the entry hazard issue + not very solid resistances to use (alternatively, never being bulky enough to take advantage of those, unlike say Jirachi or Celebi going defensive)

Snorlax usually runs Thick Fat regardless because it's the most useful thing for him to run. Being immune to poison is minor, and most teams would deal with Snorlax through Fighting types instead of Toxic/Spikes. Alternatively, running rest (despite the BW nerf to the sleep counter) also takes care of Poison concerns a lot of the time. He already has enough reason to run Thick Fat, didn't need Vicinti and Darpoopoo to convince him.

 

[bubbaking]

Yeah, I mentioned his typing before I even mentioned his predictability.

And I was talking OU before. Didn't know we were discussing UU.

 

[DMG]

OU or UU, doesn't matter. Typing holds him back quite a bit, Fire alone (Psychic is almost irrelevant for him besides the Fighting resist honestly) is pretty awful for what he needs to do. The moveset of his isn't the problem really.

 

[bubbaking]

Well, I would argue that V-create doesn't hit hard enough in OU, not with the rain + bulky fire-resists. Then there's Ttar and a whole bunch of other problems.

 

[DrinkingFood]

And DrinkingFood I know, a gimmick is a strategy or move that is useful at first, and seems overpowered, but doesn't hold up to metagame adjustments and changes in the long run.

Even if that were the right definition of the word, you're using it wrong. But that's not the definition of the word. The definition of gimmick is "something designed explicitly to attract attention". Most of those examples you have been giving aren't designed just to attract attention. They are designed with the intent (read: intent, meaning they don't always live up to the design) to complement the character's gameplay. If they attract attention in some strange way, that's fine and all, but if that's not the goal, then it's not a gimmick. A gimmick is something like Falcon's/Ganon's ability to turn around their Falcon Punch/Warlock Punch respectively. Designed to look flashy, but ultimately has next to no usefulness. There are probably a few other things, but believe it or not most things in the game aren't designed just to attract attention; they may attract attention inadvertently by being a novel or stylish way of finishing someone off or moving about the stage, but so long as that's not it's primary purpose (attracting attention) then gimmick does not fit those cases. Some things are, granted, like what I described above. Even so, if you don't have a good word for what you're trying to describe, find one. Gimmick does not fit, and using it just gets everyone to arguing about what's a gimmick and what's not; when nobody can agree on the definition, how can they ever agree on the discussion. Save yourself confusion and annoyance in the future and find a good word to describe the phenomenon of something that's effective when introduced but fails in the long term. Characters of that variety or typically called noob swatters, but idk what you'd call particular strategies or moves with the same quality, but gimmick is not it.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

...I don't think noob swatter is a term.

Smooth Criminal

 

[bubbaking]

@DMG: Speaking of typing, I'm actually amazed that Celebi is somehow OU. Grass/Psychic? With everyone and their mother spamming U-turn nowadays, how does Celebi cope? Then there's the harder hitting bug moves in OU, like Bug Buzz and X-scissor, and this doesn't even cover it's 2x weaknesses, like the common Ice and Fire attacking types and Dark and Ghost as well. Celebi's typing is one of the strongest reasons that I've always firmly believed that Celebi belongs in UU Tier. In fact, I was almost sure that she was UU before. I've definitely encountered her down there before. Did she recently rise (and the heck why)? I was also asking myself that question involving Deoxys-D. Unless you're Reuniclus or Alakazam, you really have no business being a pure-Psychic type in OU, IMO.

 

[Spiffykins]

I've only faced a Victini once in OU (on a sun team) and although it had a little help from my awful playing that match, that was enough to convince me of its viability there too. It's not outstanding by any means, but it's one of the few UU pokemon that can hold it's own in OU.

I also think it's pretty messed up that there's such a thing as bad typing. I know 17 different types isn't easy to balance but I have to wonder if they're even trying.

 

[JKJ]

Idk man, I was just using gimmick in the way I've heard it used by countless melee commentators
I don't want to call them noob swatters, because these will stand the test of time.
I know that even by my definition, I was using gimmick wrong. Please calm down, I didn't mean to anger you.
Idk what to call them then.... over-centralizing, frustrating strategies. Defeats the idea of counter-play, counter-play being the game theorist jargon-term for taking into account the fun someone will have playing AGAINST a new element you have implemented. Bananas are fun, but they make you want to punch a wall when you're on the other end of it. Lucario combos are fun, but being caught in one is infuriating. Counter-play is important, and Project:M kinda disregards it. It's the reason peoplen dislike Puff/Falco in Melee. Rest is fun for Puff, but not fun for you. Lasers are fun for Falco, not for you.

But those are really the only examples I see in Melee of poor counter-play design, whereas I'm able to list off at least ten characters that aren't fun to play against in P:M.

 

[bubbaking]

Lolz, I ask myself that question every time I see another defensive Ice-type, like Glaceon, Cryogonal, and Articuno, although I seriously think the latter two are under-rated (Articuno in particular). Like, they could at least try to make the stats match the type, y'know? Why is Ice such a good attacking type, but so many of them kinda suck at actually attacking? I'm convinced that trollfreak is capable because they get it right with other types often enough.

 

[Spiffykins]

Well bubba, you may be surprised to hear Deo-d is being suspect tested for ubers. I'm not sure if it's totally necessary, but it sure as hell doesn't belong in UU. As for Celebi, I forget what weird niche it serves in OU.

 

[bubbaking]

That's funny. I mean, I know I stopped playing a while ago (trying to see if I'll get back into it, though), but when I did, I think Celebi was UU and so was Deo-D, unless my memory is terribly off. You're telling me that Deo-D jumped from UU to possibly banworthy? It......isn't really a problem. Just Taunt/Toxic it, lolz! It's hardy, but what's it going to do after it's been incapacitated? Some Deo-D's don't even run attacking moves in their sets. Taunt bait, if you ask me.

Edit: This is coming from the guy who NEVER uses Taunt (don't ask me why 'cause I wouldn't be able to tell you), but I never had trouble getting rid of it. I'd just Toxic it with Bliss and then get rid of any spikes with Forry, if it ran entry hazards.

 

[DMG]

Celebi is fine in OU and belongs there imo. It's kind of a metagame pokemon: tends to do well vs common Rain team Pokemon, and can handle certain Pokemon when they spike in popularity. It's weak to U turn, but not to Volt Switch, and can surprise some of its common counters with the appropriate move. Team preview also helps you see when Celebi would likely be a liability: if you know they have a Scizor or Tyranitar or x counter, that's a very helpful bit of knowledge to know beforehand and benefits Pokemon like Celebi a LOT.

 

[SpiderMad]

Why do so many people like Online Competitive Pokemon? I can see that it has a lot of respect for smart decisions, but other than that it looks like the biggest time waster for learning every single trivial thing about the moves: which are just text. It also doesn't make sense to me that you can't just follow the top player's pokemon set-up: I think one of my friends said "oh well that'd be gay" and another said "well you can't use them like the person who created them can", and both of those are probably noob answers, cus I certainly think they are.

 

[DMG]

How the **** is learning about the MOVES in Pokemon trivial?

 

[bubbaking]

@Mad: For me, it's the read-heavy (as in prediction, calling bluffs, etc.) portion of the game, combined with a little bit of the fun of the planning that goes into creating a team core and trying to decipher an opponent's team core. These kinds of things make Pokemon fun. Random chance, unfortunately, does not.

@DMG: Can you at least clarify something for me? I don't want to make another mistake like I did with Hydreigon, where I confused him being UU on PO with being UU on Smogon. Is my memory correct in remembering that Celebi and Deo-D were UU at one time? I seriously remember running into them multiple times with my main UU team.

 

[Kink-Link5]

How the **** is learning about the MOVES in Pokemon trivial?

I can see where having to learn every single strategy and counter strategy and counter-counter strategy to every move and Pokemon and ability combination could get annoying. In a metagame that can't stand still and adds 1000+ new variables every 2 years.

 

[DMG]

Deo-D was UU for a time, I can't remember the reason or when it happened. Plenty of lame stuff was legal in OU for a time being, Drizzle Swift Swim and Excadrill were laaaaaaaaameeeee. Deo-D then started being used a ton as a lead, and even had metagame options for OU like Fire Gem HP Fire to deal with Steels setting up on it.


Celebi? I can't remember on that one... It may have briefly been UU during the days of BW1. Honestly I don't know for sure because I wasn't that interested and involved in the early days of BW. I stopped playing DPPt and didn't buy Black or White for the DS, and didn't have a desire to play (still kinda don't but eh)


As for the top player moveset question, the real reason you don't see the exact moves and EV spreads all the time is because top players tend to make choices based on their expected threats, which can be a bit different from normal and they occasionally make choices that seem less than "optimal" for certain reasons like to address specific threats or to synergize with their team better. For example, running a certain number of Speed or Defensive EV's that "normally" would not be used, to outrun or outlive specific threats. It wouldn't make sense to recommend some of these sets as standard, when they are closer to CP sets than general sets. Either way, don't fret because as far as actual movesets go, stuff from the top tends to trickle down regardless of how public people make stuff. Top players have plenty of conversations and theory crafting made public for other players to pick up on and expand on.

 

[bubbaking]

You mean every 1 year, as of recently.

@DMG: I found my answer for Deo-D:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3498852
Going by what I read in the bottom of the OP and post #3, yeah, Deo-D was UU at a time and that time perfectly coincides with when I used to play. Kinda surprising that he jumped so high up from being UU to being Uber suspect.

Edit: Oh, you ninja'd me.

Edit 2: Wow, you're almost just like me. Played DPPt (you liked it, right? ) but didn't buy BW 'cause of lack of interest. The only difference is that I played on PO during the 'early days' of BW but stopped playing right after BW2 came out, whereas you didn't start playing until later, about when I'd stopped it seems.

 

[Spiffykins]

I know Deo-d was at one point. Not sure about Celebi. Also, you can't really just go "well this move counters it" because that ignores all the factors that make it effective. High speed makes it hard to taunt and ironically let's it taunt other hazard setters/walls easily. Fire gem is a common item on it for obvious reasons. It's almost impossible to one-shot. It's got recover to outlast spinners. It also now has nasty plot, which probably won't be very common but it's just icing on the cake.

 

[SpiderMad]

Okay, so it's like a star craft that's void of visuals and hand coordination skills.

 

[bubbaking]

OK, so Celebi was UU too:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3449047

@Spiffy: Actually, check out that previous site I linked. Apparently, Deo's biggest problems back then were Toxic/T.spikes and Taunt (+ WoW) combined with its sole Psychic typing, so I was literally right on the mark for the metagame of 'my time'. I guess people found a way to get around that.

 

[hotdogturtle]

one of the few UU pokemon that can hold it's own in OU.

"Few"? There are plenty of UU Pokemon which are completely competitively viable and are only UU for the fact that they're literally under-used. UU isn't quite like NU where Pokemon get sent there just for being bad.

 

[Spiffykins]

Not totally void. Plus the new graphics for the 3DS release look pretty spiffy.

 

[DMG]

It's weird. Deo-D himself doesn't feel too powerful for OU, but the way the metagame plays out he looks pretty efficient sometimes.

In Ubers, using him would be incredibly frustrating IMO. More taunt users, harder hitters, more Pokemon to setup on him.


In OU, he's literally the only choice for an offensive Spiker. He's also the hardest Spiker to counter in the game hands down. Because of that, leading with him is really solid and most teams are limited to not even preventing him from getting hazards, but just limiting him to 1-2 things of Spikes. That's pretty powerful, but again it's not really that he's too good. It's mostly that he's just the hardest Spiker to stop, and the hardest to kill for a multitude of reasons. He's not sweeping or demolishing the Metagame, but he is dominant at his role and there is NO variety for what he does in another Pokemon.

On another note, Spinblocking is not nearly as effective in this Gen for a lot of reasons. Team preview alerts you to the fact that they have a Ghost, and in scenarios a person would send out a Spin Blocker you can read it pretty easily and punish them for it. In plenty of cases as well, the metagame is just too offensive and if you guess wrong you can eat incredibly massive damage. You play a risky game trying to Spin block most of the time, and it got super risky with Team preview. However, on the flip side, taking a turn to spin away the hazards/sometimes take another turn switching out can give the opponent too much time to set up regardless and put you at a disadvantage regardless of your choices. I don't see much Spinning take place honestly, besides teams that hinge on SR weak Pokemon. Even then, people got creative with Magic Bounce pokemon and that takes off the pressure of spinning. Overall though, you tend to see more hazards laying out on the field in this Gen, and being able to near guarantee set them up like he can is pretty powerful. Other Pokemon can take on the role of the random SR, but for Spiking he is the king of that.