Project M Social Thread

[Oracle]

I guess it depends on what over-centralization is to you. The way I see it, a character can be overcentralized when a single move or two become so integral to their high level game that you wont win without heavy use of those moves. Their winning strategies revolve around those moves or use them as a platform.
tbh, I wouldn't even call, "being able to win with only one or two moves" over-centralization in itself. Its the result of 1or 2 moves being that good and the rest of the moveset not being able to keep up results in the over-centralization that I'm talking about actually.


It's like Roy in Melee. He revolved around abuse of dtilt and DED because those were his best moves, because the rest of his character was subpar. It was necessary to use these moves to win, else you couldnt.

There aren't a lot of characters in this game where you can simply omit use of a move and do just as well as you would have without it. Moves are situational; since this game's goal is to be balanced, all of the moves should see use when they're needed. Obviously some characters have moves that are very important to their gameplay, such as ike being slow without qd or bowser having no oos options without up b, but these are not the only moves that make them good, and if you over rely on them, you get punished for it hard (assuming a competent opponent).

What you're thinking of is the character being focused on one or two moves. Overcentralization is by nature a problem, since I think we can all agree having a single move that is so much better than the rest is bad for the game

 

[Oracle]

Sonic's other attacks and approaches lose pretty easily to most hitboxes. That's the issue with Sonic: you aren't given a sword or long legs or some cool approach. You're given "spin to win". Being in spin in neutral is your best option overall. If something doesn't work out, they shield it or don't get hit as you fly by, then roll or run or spin away and reset over and over until it works. On bigger stages, good luck! Pray your character can stop it lol. People in PM seem to love their big stages, and this is partly why I don't. I don't want Sonic Pit Fox or some blah blah blah running a marathon lol.

Have you played 2.5 sonic? His other moves are all extremely effective when combined with his speed. This isn't 2.1 anymore. The issue is that down-b is effectively impossible to approach because sonic has very powerful options out of it. When not camping with spin charge, you have other good options to get in, pressure, bait, etc. Go watch sethlon's 2.5 sonic if you don't believe me.

To be fair, watch some of Wizzrobe's sets in the middle of Combo's. There was one moment vs Strong Bad on Metal Cavern, where he does this like 0-40 combo and does it flawlessly because of like a weak HA cancel or something? And he hovers up, gets the hit, wavelands perfectly, gets the jab to grab. That kind of stuff is really hype and shows that he definitely put more time into Sonic than just "sitting there". And I don't blame him, because if my character always lost to Sex Kicks projectiles swords random jabs or tilts, etc I probably wouldn't rush in trying to have fun and abuse the fact that my character dictates when to go in by an overwhelming margin vs most of the cast.

This isn't marvel. How good you are at combos is not a defining factor for how good you are as a player. There are a whole mess of other factors that go into that, none of which wizzrobe displayed because he realized he could just use a degenerative strategy that a lot of characters couldn't deal with.

To be honest, I don't even think the strategy is that good. Reflex beat it, and that matchup is hard as hell for wario. He just found that the could control enough space to make wizzrobe do something, then once wizzy had to actually fight him Reflex took advantage of the other glaring holes in his game and outplayed him. IMO most of the players that lost to him probably could have won had they seen the strategy before. Its still a problem, because the fact that a strategy like that is effective at all is a travesty, but its definitely manageable.

Lol snake and c4 being the move he's revolved around

We all know that snake is nothing without the bus driver

 

[DMG]

My point was that he didn't beat people by camping spin, and then sucking at combos edge guarding etc normal facets of the game. He didn't win by only being hard to hit: he combined that with pretty good fundamentals elsewhere imo (besides the rolling, which is not that easy of an option to pick out of Sonic and punish unless you are very close by). Sure, I dunno how some of the slower characters are supposed to deal with what he did, but I don't think he bypassed strong Melee players and "normal' Melee gameplay with spin only. You can see some of the thought he's put into Sonic once he goes in or once he's edge guarding or in the middle of a combo. Those parts of gameplay weren't scrapped and replaced with a little bumper sticker that says "Down B to win" lol.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I just worry that his design will allow him to camp hardcore once everything else nets him a sizable lead.

 

[DMG]

Oh yeah. Again, if you're a slower character or it's a larger stage, good luck is all I can say.

 

[batistabus]

Oh yeah. Again, if you're a slower character or it's a larger stage, good luck is all I can say.

It also doesn't help that PM has some pretty big stage additions.

 

[Translucent]

I have a quick question: what is the correct way to up-b out of shield?

 

[Hylian]

I have a quick question: what is the correct way to up-b out of shield?

Not sure what you mean by "Correct way". Any way that you can do it is correct. I do it by pressing up-b while holding shield.

 

[Translucent]

Okay, it wouldn't work for me when I did it that way. Thanks, I'll give it another try tomorrow.

 

[Hylian]

Okay, it wouldn't work for me when I did it that way. Thanks, I'll give it another try tomorrow.

You need tap jump on to do it that way.

 

[Translucent]

Oh, so if I have it off I need to jump first?

 

[DMG]

^^^

If tap jump is off, pressing up on the control stick while shielding will only angle the shield up. You need to press jump to get out of shielding, and then do whatever. Upb, aerial, etc

 

[Translucent]

Ok, cool. I will attempt this again tomorrow lol.

 

[Vashimus]

Oh yeah. Again, if you're a slower character or it's a larger stage, good luck is all I can say.

Jiggs on Norfair.

 

[DMG]

I WARNED YOU ALL about these big stages lol.

 

[bubbaking]

Dude, leaving tap jump on is the easiest way to upB OoS because all you have to do is press up + B. Having tap jump off requires so much hassle.

It's easy to Peach Nair Sonic as he comes by you. But try moving towards him, getting closer to the danger zone, and telling me you'll be able to on reaction Nair him out of it or know when exactly he will release and touch your character in xyz frames lol. Plenty of characters have hitbox walls that Sonic will lose to if he runs head first into them. But there's no way for some of the slower characters to have any say on the matter, and it doesn't matter if your Sex Kick will always win if you can't threaten to put him in some kind of spot that says HEY respect my Nair! Instead of standing in place with spin waiting to release, or walking back and then punishing, or baiting a reaction that he can punish due to speed.

Well, the solution is simple really. It's something I picked up from so many games with Leelue, SOJ, and GHNeko. Just use a char who can 'spam' a fast sex kick or other really good long-lasting hitbox and just use it often during the times when Sonic is most likely to come in. The only drawback to this strategy? Well, you can't really approach Sonic all too well with these moves, but at the same time, it's extremely hard for Sonic to approach you without trading. I guess Sonic is asking all of us to trade a little bit of our humanity in order to win, but is this any different from what Jiggs asks of us regularly?

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Do we really need another character as annoying as jiggs

 

[Oracle]

DMG he didn't really play smart, he didn't mix up any part of his game, and he didn't attempt to make any reads or baits. He did the same thing over and over again until it worked, and when a player found an answer to that thing, he folded. If I missed some smart play or something I would love to be wrong, but I didn't see any in that match.

As for big stages: use the stage groups system and strike big stages. Not that hard guys

 

[bubbaking]

A lot of people don't like the stage groups system, though.

Edit: Also, banning the 'big stage' group (Group 4) only gets rid of DL64, Skyworld, RF, and Skyloft. It doesn't stop Sonic from taking you to DC, FD, or a couple of other stages where he can probably lame you just as bad if not worse.

Obviously some characters have moves that are very important to their gameplay, such as ike being slow without qd or bowser having no oos options without up b, but these are not the only moves that make them good, and if you over rely on them, you get punished for it hard (assuming a competent opponent).

Shine and lasers are literally what make Falco as good as he is. Fox can probably be a great character without those moves, but they literally make Falco. The same can possibly be said about Jiggs and her bair, but not as well as Falco and his specials.

I think we can all agree having a single move that is so much better than the rest is bad for the game

Shines anyone? And this is part of why the spacees are poison to Melee and P:M.

I just worry that his design will allow him to camp hardcore once everything else nets him a sizable lead.

Oh yeah. Again, if you're a slower character or it's a larger stage, good luck is all I can say.

It also doesn't help that PM has some pretty big stage additions.

Well what about Jiggs and Fox? Both of those chars can camp you to death once they net a good lead and you're pretty much screwed against them on large stages. At least Sonic lacks priority and isn't too strong. Fox is really fast, really strong, and has priority.

Jiggs on Norfair.

I WARNED YOU ALL about these big stages lol.

I WARNED YOU ALL about circle camping on Norfair!

 

[DrinkingFood]

Shines anyone? And this is part of why the spacees are poison to Melee and P:M.

you're a samus main you're too biased

 

[bubbaking]

Yo, because I'm a Samus main, I'm not too bothered by shine pressure. Whenever I'm going Sheik in tournament, if you whip out that Fox, I will counter you with Samus, no lie. Snake is just holding me over until I can feel the sweet love of her tilts again.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Snake is just holding me over until I can feel the sweet love of her **** again.

that's what I read at first

EDIT: ****ing smashboards, censors out tilts - l
AZ, can you hear me? an optional censor needs to be the next SWF update!

 

[Vashimus]

You and me both, DF.

 

[GaretHax]

Shine and lasers are literally what make Falco as good as he is. Fox can probably be a great character without those moves, but they literally make Falco. The same can possibly be said about Jiggs and her bair, but not as well as Falco and his specials.


Shines anyone? And this is part of why the spacees are poison to Melee and P:M

Well that seems somewhat contradictory and silly now doesn't it? Seriously though Bubba enough with the spacie drama dude, playing Sonic in PM is straight akward. The spindash and his speed almost make you just want to sit still and wait for him to come at you. I don't know much about his autocomboes or anything, but I assume just about all brawl newcomers would have some since they were designed different from melee vets as a baseline. I mean the moves that are used to combo in melee were pretty obviously never intended to, but with PM they are able and kinda have to plan out what combos into what, and when. So Leffin's point is kinda legitimate I guess, I don't think it's as big a deal as he makes it out to be but I'm neither him, nor anywhere near as good at melee or in all likelihood PM as he is lol. I like Sonic's spindash because of how well it can be used offensively, however I'm not a fan of how it could be abused with a defensive playstyle. Then again I play smash for the movement and because offensive play is actually viable, though in the current meta its becoming harder to say that as even Mango is starting to play defensively (IMO), so i tend to dislike defensive play or options.

 

[bubbaking]

Uh, what's so silly about acknowledging that Fox and Falco are two different characters? Just look at them. Fox is fast, has great kill power, and has a better recovery. He could get by just fine without shines and lasers. Falco, however, would probably be horrible. He wouldn't be able to set up that famous long-range pressure that he's famous for, and all his single-hit moves would be unsafe on shields without a shine, not to mention, he'd lose out on a bunch of combos, as opposed to what Fox already DOES without a shine.

 

[JOE!]

On that note, you ever wonder if some chars are so *good* just due to having one or two ridiculous moves?

 

[Yomi-no-Kuni]

Is there an official ruleset? Like allowed stages, bans/counterpick and so on and so forth?

Would be awesome to have something like that to make your own tourneys... so far its always been "uhm... random?"

 

[bubbaking]

All the time. Fox, remarkably, isn't in that category, but Falco definitely is. Take away Puff's two side aerials and she isn't even a character anymore. That's probably unfair, though. Falcon would probably be messed up just as badly.

 

[Ripple]

WHy does it seem that the screen can't keep up with how fast the gameplay is like melee can?

it seems like frames are just dropped half the time.

 

[Oracle]

There isn't one as of yet. The pmbr is busy actually developing the game, so there isn't really an agreed upon ruleset. Personally, I like the stage group system that bowser's revenge uses, but the conservative ruleset that allows three bans seems to be more popular.

 

[bubbaking]

Page 1 with 4 bans seemed nice, but I really like some of those Page 2 stages.....

 

[GaretHax]

All the time. Fox, remarkably, isn't in that category, but Falco definitely is. Take away Puff's two side aerials and she isn't even a character anymore. That's probably unfair, though. Falcon would probably be messed up just as badly.

This I can agree with, and it was silly because you first separated the two space animals to make a point and then lumped them back together in a somewhat contradictory argument.

 

[Mindnight64]

I saw the Master Ball in the new Pokemon Stadium 2, and thought, "Oh, M stands for Master." Guess not, lol.

Anyway, great mod (or whatever you call it)! I'm really enjoying the speedy gameplay and new attacks. Will final smashes eventually be added to Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard?

 

[GunBlaze]

Sometime later when all characters and most mechanics are touched upon IIRC

 

[GHNeko]

yeaahhhh i got a new name!



Kappa

 

[bubbaking]

You're endorsed?

Edit: Yooo, when are those ECE vids going up?

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Lmao @ Neko's new name.

Smooth Criminal

 

[GHNeko]

You're endorsed?

Edit: Yooo, when are those ECE vids going up?

when i stop being lazy lol

 

[Sixth-Sense]

WHy does it seem that the screen can't keep up with how fast the gameplay is like melee can?

it seems like frames are just dropped half the time.

I've had that feeling too, although i've always thought it was because PM's (or Brawl's w/e) camera doesn't follow the characters, it seems like it just stays put in a certain place and moves from there. I really hope they change that because it just takes away from the battle.

On another note, i actually think fox wouldn't be as good without shine, if we just take out shine for both of them, Falco wouldn't be lacking as much as fox, if fox no longer had shine (this goes for falco too) he wouldn't be able to fully take advantage of his speed and his amazing nair-plane he wouldn't even be able to approach, no shield pressure, no waveshines into anything (which works on so many characters, which then could end with up-smash) none of his amazing gimps etc.
When you look at falco though, shine is essential for starting the combo at very low percents, but falco can still pillar with up-tilt and dair, he can still come in with lasers and control you that way as well. I guess he just doesn't lose as much as fox without shine.

 

[GunBlaze]

There is only one way to solve this...

Quick! Someone make a shineless Spacies PSA! Test the three...