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Project M Social Thread

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BrandX

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Hey I got a question, so I ended up playing more Project M with my friend yesterday and I seem to have a constant problem with rolling when I shouldn't be. Like for some reason it feels like a bad habit to try and roll from an attack, only to get punished.

It seems like though whenever I don't roll and try blocking to maybe attempt a short hop punish, but I can't seem to stop getting hit.

Can anyone give me some defensive tips? How can I stop the habit or rolling and what can I do to not get hit so much?
 

Rikana

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Rolling isn't bad. Rolling in a predictable manner is. Depending on your character, you may have a good out of sheild option (oos). You can always try to sheild grab or wavedash out of sheild.
 

BrandX

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It just seems like when I play against his ganondorf and squirtle, they seem to always hit me because either I'm rolling too much or I tried a out of shield option, but got hit. Not sure if I'm doing something wrong lol.

In other news, my L-cancelling is getting better lol
 

Stevo

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most people go through the same "rolling phase" as you have described, if it makes you feel better lol.

Even the best players roll sometimes when they shouldn't out of instinct.

For me, I just learned to play NEVER rolling. This caused me problems later on, as there are some instances where you should roll, but overall, I think it made me a better player. Not sure if this is the right way to go about things, though. lol
 

Jolteon

I'm sharpening my knife, kupo.
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Don't worry too much, rolling frequently is a very common habit for newer players.

I would suggest replacing a lot of your rolling attempts with wavedash out of shield (just do a wavedash input when shielding - the jumping part of a wavedash will allow this to work), wd OoS is a great way to reset your spacing back to neutral when you are being threatened.

vs Ganondorf in particular, a good way to avoid being hit is to wait or dash dance outside of his immediate range (typically the range of his fair) and to punish his moves endlag with a grab or attack.

edit: Congrats on l-cancelling more. :p

edit2: Digging the name neko lol.
 

BrandX

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Well thanks everyone for the suggestions. Do you think it would be a good idea to record some matches against the CPU, to sort of give you guys an idea of my current skill level? lol I know CPU's are different then humans, but it could still be a good way to practice.

I feel that making videos is a great way to give an idea of what kind of advice I need lol

Also yes Neko, your name is awesome now~
 

JOE!

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This is part of the reason I kinda loathe keeping the melee parthenon as-is, the stuff that works but is jank is kept

:phone:
 

bubbaking

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@Sixth-Sense: I thought the PMBR changed how the camera works from vBrawl. :confused:

Oh yeah, Fox wouldn't be as good without a shine, but he would definitely be able to get by. His mobility, speed, attack strength, attack speed, priority, and several of his combos are all intact without shine. Nair > nair > nair combos still exist in full force. Same for uthrow > uair, random things into usmash, etc. No shield pressure? You're underestimating the power of frame 2 jabs and extremely long and fast dash dances. So many times, I take on dedicated Falcon mains with my garbage Fox and I remind them a little of why Falcon:Fox is a pretty bad MU. I can't use shines well at all, but I get by completely on DD camping, dthrow tech-chases, and uthrow > usmash > uair x2 or at low %'s, uthrow > usmash > usmash. Fox is so stupid... :facepalm:

Why does Falco get hit so hard if he loses the shine? Well what does he attack up close safely with without it? Unlike Fox, he doesn't have a drill or extremely good mobility (although his mobility is not bad). All of his single-hit moves dictate that he has to either attack early with his aerial, which is unsafe on shield, or attack late, which can be stuffed. The shine is meant to 'patch up' those holes that literally every character has to worry about. Every time you'd try to shieldgrab him, you'd eat a shine aaaaand the rest of the combo that went with it. Since Fox has other great tools, he doesn't mind being forced to live with those 'holes' as much as Falco does because he can just change his playstyle and adapt. For Falco, those holes interfere with every major part of his CQC game.
 

bubbaking

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Well originally, the topic was "What if Falco had neither his shine nor his lasers?" because we were talking about overcentralizing specials. I believe that if Falco didn't have those two, he'd have dropped all the way to B Tier, maybe lower. Meanwhile, I'm pretty sure Fox would have stayed up there with the High Tiers.
 

Stevo

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oh, ok.
It's funny, cause pretty much all of Falco's moves are good lol. His horizontal movement is slow though, but laser helps cover that. I think losing laser for him would be a bigger deal.
 

Kink-Link5

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Hey I got a question, so I ended up playing more Project M with my friend yesterday and I seem to have a constant problem with rolling when I shouldn't be. Like for some reason it feels like a bad habit to try and roll from an attack, only to get punished.

It seems like though whenever I don't roll and try blocking to maybe attempt a short hop punish, but I can't seem to stop getting hit.

Can anyone give me some defensive tips? How can I stop the habit or rolling and what can I do to not get hit so much?
This is one of those applications of a wavedash that makes it superior in this case to rolling. Try spot dodging under more typical poking pressure, and only roll as a last resort, when everything else seems like it would be a poor choice.
 

bubbaking

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I really wouldn't mind if I was allowed to destroy whoever I came across in CQC; MUs would just become more manageable for chars like Kirby and G&W who already had a good deal of difficulty approaching.

Can anyone give me some defensive tips? How can I stop the habit or rolling and what can I do to not get hit so much?
Yeah, as everyone else pretty much said, don't worry about it too much. Snake has a decent enough roll and so does ZSS. If you want to avoid being put in shield, try to work on your mobility so that you can space yourself just outside of your opponent's danger range (not just his immediate attack range but also the range in which he can quickly move and attack you before you can react while closing the distance). Especially in the case of ZSS, work on your dashdance (DD). Wavedashes (WD) help with this too, especially since they let you space backwards while continuing to face the opponent (and they let you pick up 'nades with Snake).

Ooooor: :awesome:
Main somebody with a terrible roll.
^^^THIS, lolz! I can't tell you how much better my Out of Shield (OoS) actions became as a result of maining Samus. Maining a character who doesn't have a choice but to not roll pretty much forces you to get good at WDs, aerials, and specials OoS. Conversely, you could always main someone like Sheik who has a really good roll, so you don't have to worry about it too much (I think ZSS fits into this category as well). On the subject of doing other things OoS, don't forget that Snake has an excellent upB OoS that can lead into combos and kills. Don't forget about it! ;)
 

bubbaking

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.................................I mean, that's a hard question because every char uses loads of moves and stuff. No one is completely "made up" of one move, but......I guess shine and lasers for Falco? Side aerials for Puff? Spindash for Sonic? I guess bair and grab for DK. Lolz, let's make a list! Sounds fun. ^_^
 

BrandX

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I see that makes a lot of sense. Yeah I'm working on those jump out shield things, but I usually end up screwing that up.

ZSS is extremely weird to control, might actually end up sticking with Charizard lol
 

bubbaking

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Alright, just got back home so I can focus on making that list for totally unimportant reasons. ^_^

@BrandX: Yeah, ZSS is kinda bizarre and hard to control and there are a bunch of little niche things you need to know about her in order to make her move smoothly. She kinda moves like a mix between Falcon and.....idk, something else, lolz. :p That and she's really fast (and she falls fast) so it might be hard for a beginner to get the hang of playing with her.

Sometimes, it's better to play one 'easier' character most of the time, just to get accustomed to the competitive aspects of Smash and some of the techs you should be learning, and then play who you'd REALLY enjoy. When I started playing Melee, I originally mained Sheik because, you know, she's easy to pick up. I learned when to roll, when not to roll, and when to spot-dodge. I learned how to SHFFL and WD. I learned how to space properly. After a couple years, I tried out all the other characters seriously and found out that I really loved Samus. Made Samus my main and switched Sheik over to my secondary and I've been happy ever since. However, I'm extremely happy that I didn't start out my Smash career with Samus because that would have been hella difficult. Everyone else would be learning how to SHFFL right away and that really wouldn't apply to me. Oh, and don't get me started on those rolls! :facepalm:

Edit: Also, so that you don't get confused by Smash-specific terminology that's kinda thrown around in this thread (and others), you might want to get accustomed to the terms and abbreviations in this thread of mine:
Terms, Abbreviations, and Concepts
 

JOE!

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.................................I mean, that's a hard question because every char uses loads of moves and stuff. No one is completely "made up" of one move, but......I guess shine and lasers for Falco? Side aerials for Puff? Spindash for Sonic? I guess bair and grab for DK. Lolz, let's make a list! Sounds fun. ^_^
Wouldn't be for no reason, it could show their designs in a new light. Also, I'd prob define the moves as ones they need to use like 35% of the time or more (out of all moves used) per stock to be used competitively.

:phone:
 

bubbaking

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Bubba, what moves would you say fall into the "this alone makes the character" category?
For argument's sake, I'm ignoring recovery moves because EVERY character needs those as much as their other moves.
  • Falco: Shine and lasers
  • Jiggs: Side aerials (mostly bair)
  • ICs: Grab
  • DK: Bair and grab
  • Bowser: Fortress (maybe, not sure)
  • DDD: Grab
  • Sonic: Spindash
  • Zard: Grab and dsmash (moreso in 2.1, however)*
*Apparently, Zard's dthrow > dsmash combination was so strong that it warranted a minor nerf to his dthrow in 2.5. The IASA frames were made later. It's still a great throw, but nowhere near the finesse that it was in 2.1.

Notice how I excluded ones like Falcon's knee and Bowser's Fortress. These characters would indeed be a LOT worse without these moves but those moves don't practically "make" the character like the listed ones above do.

I'm also noticing an interesting trend here. Melee vets tend to focus more on certain really good moves because of how good those moves proved to be in Melee. Meanwhile, Brawl newcomers, who were largely worked from the ground up, tend (if you ignore Zard) to have a bit more variety forcefully worked in. I don't know if this is good or bad, but it's interesting to notice. Then again, overcentralization is only being shown to be a problem in just a few chars (in fact, it's only being shown to actually be PRESENT in just a few chars), so it's probably not that bad.

Edit: Looking at this again, perhaps I should throw Bowser's Fortress into that list..... Yeah, I'm gonna do it.
 

JOE!

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This is what I've noticed too. It ever irritate you to watch say, lucario/falcon vs falco, where the former us ahead by doing all their moves, then falco gets the same results VIA blooping and pulls ahead/ko's.

:phone:
 

Vashimus

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Bubbaking, not to sound mean, as she's my secondary in Melee, but you ride Samus' "cannon" a lot. :smirk:

BrandX, doing things out of shield that involve a jump are easier if you just keep tap jump on. If you need to keep it off however (I keep it off for some characters like Marth), do what JCaesar does and set an unused shoulder button to jump.

:phone:
 

bubbaking

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Is it weird for someone to love their main? Lolz! Why else would I main a somewhat mediocre character and secondary Sheik?

#Videophilia

@Kink: Yeah, but not everyone uses their grab more than half the match like DK, DDD, and the ICs do.

Edit: Most chars would be kinda trashy without their bairs, but no one's bair 'makes' the char like Puff's does.
 

iLink

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@BrandX:

There are a number of defensive options.

Besides rolling and spot dodging, there are varies options out of a shield. As I mentioned earlier, a shield grab will usually suffice against a lot of things that don't have much range. Just wait for them to hit your shield and press A while holding the shield button.

When shielding, there is a significant amount of frames it takes to drop your shield, so canceling your shield with a jump is a good option as it lets you either counter attack or just escape from the situation. Since you are trying out Snake, you can do his UpB OoS (out of shield) as a great defensive option since it is fast, reasonably safe, and you can combo off of it in some cases.

Another option snake has is pulling out a grenade and then just shielding. Shielding while having a grenade in your hand will cause it to drop at your feet, and can explode on your opponent if they are incoming with an attack.

Another option that is a little more advanced is wavedashing OoS. It might be a little hard at first to figure out when it is appropriate to use this and I don't really recommend you worry too much about this for now, just remember that it is an option. You can do it to wavedash back and gain a little more distance or to punish certain attacks like Marth fsmash on your shield.

Also your character's general movement is also a defensive option. Dash dancing is potent because it makes your opponent think you are going to rush in and can cause them to throw out and attack and whiff it, giving you the chance to dash back in and punish it. This is a very basic thing you should probably get familiar with as it is frequently used at high level.
 

bubbaking

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Whoever said anything about nerfing spacees? We (I at least) were just speculating on how the spacees (and other chars) would be without certain moves and such. Nothing to be taken seriously at all. I really hope no one's batting an eye at this. It's already well-known that I'm 100% for nerfing the spacees, but it's clear that won't happen, so I don't ask for it. We were just talking about an interesting topic: overcentralization, of which Falco (and other chars) is guilty of. Lolz!
 

TheReflexWonder

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Maybe? I thought they were never going to nerf spacies because they said the characters would be too different from their melee version.
Non-PMBR members talking about potential changes to space animals don't really give an accurate depiction of what is (or isn't) to come. :p
 

JCaesar

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^ This guy knows what's up.

Damn, ninjad. Pretend I'm pointing through Kink Link to the guy who knows what's up.

Also, it's called a triwing screwdriver. R jump master race.
 
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