Project M Social Thread

[Juushichi]

Doctor Doom is the definition of a good high tier that can do just about anything, Bubba. Not a top tier.

He's basically Marvel's version of PM: Mario. Except with swag combos sometimes.

 

[bubbaking]

Well, that's what Morrigan is too, a good high tier. She can't do too much by herself. It's just that MorriDoom is broken. It's like SkarmBliss in Pokemon. Neither is that good by itself, but together, they're incredible.

Edit: I mean, Morrigan is good by herself, just like Doom, but she's not really self-sufficient unless she has tons of meter that her teammates built up for her.

Edit 2: And I'm willing to argue that Doom is Top Tier because he's probably the best teammate in the game. He can literally fit on any team that you could possibly want. There isn't a single soul out there that wouldn't benefit greatly from having Hidden Missiles on his team. Add in his decent gameplay by himself and you have a Top Tier char, if only for great team synergy with practically anyone and everyone.

 

[ELI-mination]

Your face is free.

Crouch cancel that

 

[Ghostbone]

SkarmBliss is bad in any gen besides gen3
And it's beaten by magneton there anyway (or lol Nosepass).

A way better example would be politoed + kingdra (and other various rain sweepers)

 

[bubbaking]

The only things that are holding Wolf's laser back is priority and travel length (MAAAYYYBE speed, but not as much as the other two.) If Wolf's laser could travel a third of what Falco's laser does and have the same priority, Wolf's laser games could be just as powerful as Falco's while keeping its originality.

As long as Wolf has to WL out of his lasers, his projectile game will never be as "powerful" as Falco's, unless you buff something about the laser, like its speed or size, to ridiculous proportions. Buffing priority is fine, but buffing travel length is a bad idea, IMO. From my experience against Eli's Wolf, the char can already string together multiple lasers like nobody's business. Make the travel length longer and you'd have a char who could just make a wall (or multiple walls) of blaster fire that could travel all across the stage and make approaching impossible. I'll draw a picture to illustrate in the near future.

WHy isnt his lazer transcendant like the other spacies/vBrawl?

Why doesn't it have laser priority? Because it's a different character with different properties and uses for the move compared to those other characters and their similar moves. It's like asking why Toon Link's bombs aren't single hit like Link's bombs.

Design reasoning aside, it's balance concerns too.

Well, Joe was asking about it from a vBrawl perspective, I think. The way I see it, all the spacees in that game use their lasers for the same thing: camping/zoning. It's no secret that Falco's lasers are the best out of the three in vBrawl as well. They might even be the best zoning tool in the entire game. There's a reason Falco is a Top Tier and Wolf isn't even High, even though Wolf arguably has a better moveset and better MUs against the chars that kill the other two spacees (or all three). They have similar uses for their projectiles, but Falco's are just better, just like in this game.

 

[UltiMario]

Let me spin it another way.

You'd rather Wolf weave in, shoot the laser, AD back constantly with walls of lasers that are slow and controlling space, making it extremely difficult for characters slower than he is to get through and attack him? Because that's kind of what would happen and what we experienced when they were laser priority for awhile. Which would make Wolf's matches progressively slower depending on the MU and all that jazz.

Or, would you rather him be able to shoot all the lasers he wants, but characters can get through them reasonably well?

We've tested a lot of stuff before... I don't think it's out of the question to assume we already tried laser priority on them to know they were stupid.

But Falco advancing/wavebounce/retreating lasers are fine?

Slow projectiles are usually better than fast ones but Falco's lasers still take the cake over Wolf's regardless due to the easy land cancel and interruption utility. Falco isn't forced into 10 frames of landing lag for firing one either, and can fire them last second close to the ground.

I don't see how ADing gives Wolf an advantage that makes transcendent priority lasers broken. It's neutral at best, probably worse than just a land cancel.

 

[FireBall Stars]

I used morrigan as example not as being a incredibly good character, but due to her incredibly good projectile, which serves both to keepaway and rushdown.

She can shoot these big fireballs in a high succession rate which makes them useful even without astral vision. They have high durability and can both hinder the opponent's approach and aid her approach since she's very agile in the air.

In comparison to wolf, he's very agile both in the air and ground and can use his slow projectile in aid of his approach, but it doesn't have a very high durability (due to smash mechanics) this way it serves well as a rushdown tool while being not so good on keepaway.

And there you have it, the results are that morrigan is extremely reliant of her soul fists (since they are useful on both situations), they are the center of her designed gameplay.

While wolf's blaster is only part of his and is not something the character is extremely dependant on.

 

[bubbaking]

Good explanation and comparison. I guess I'm forced to agree. As I said, I have nothing against Wolf's lasers. I've just accepted them as they are.

 

[UltiMario]

Morrigan's projectiles are so good because they come from both sides of the screen and combo into each other.

Comparing that to anything in smash is a ludicrous hyperbole at best.

 

[DMG]

SkarmBliss is bad in any gen besides gen3
And it's beaten by magneton there anyway (or lol Nosepass).

A way better example would be politoed + kingdra (and other various rain sweepers)

Well you could use Shed Shell on Skarmory (and I assume you mean Gen 2 because Gen 2 their combo was ridiculous). The drizzle swift swim stuff is banned cause yeah that stuff is lame.

Well, Joe was asking about it from a vBrawl perspective, I think. The way I see it, all the spacees in that game use their lasers for the same thing: camping/zoning. It's no secret that Falco's lasers are the best out of the three in vBrawl as well. They might even be the best zoning tool in the entire game. There's a reason Falco is a Top Tier and Wolf isn't even High, even though Wolf arguably has a better moveset and better MUs against the chars that kill the other two spacees (or all three). They have similar uses for their projectiles, but Falco's are just better, just like in this game.

Actually it's more complicated than that. Wolf due to his weight, gets screwed by CG's that the other two don't (or in similar cases, he gets grabbed for more % than they do). Falco also has his own obvious Dthrow CG and his run away game with lasers + side B is solid enough on its own. Wolf has some better features, but at least in Brawl there's much more to why Falco is amazing and Wolf sucks than "Well he has better laser".

 

[Jolteon]

Your face is free.

Crouch cancel that

Blemish free.

 

[JOE!]

Well, I was more just curious as to why its not transcendant in general.

 

[FireBall Stars]

They only come from both ways when used along her astral vision super.

Not recognizing that even without the said super her projectiles are among the best in the game (useful on many situations) is lack of knowledge on the game in question.

Which is exactly what wolf's blaster isn't, it has one good application and is beaten by other projectiles on other situations.

 

[Strong Badam]

EDIT: Ignore this.

 

[leafbarrett]

Can people please not respond to or quote bubbaking in any way? I have him ignore listed and would rather my experience here be completely devoid of bubbaking, and the quotes aren't helping.

Or, you know, you could just suck it up and deal with it. So you don't like him, good for you. That doesn't have anything to do with any of us, and I'd rather keep it that way. Seriously, that's just childish. -_-

 

[Juushichi]

Get ra---.

Wolf is pretty good, tho. I guess.

 

[UltiMario]

Without Astral Vision Morrigan's keep away wouldn't be anywhere close to as deadly.

Her projectiles are even pretty easy to get around, but it's assists that make her non-astral keep away good. Such things don't translate to smash.

 

[McNinja]

Or, you know, you could just suck it up and deal with it. So you don't like him, good for you. That doesn't have anything to do with any of us, and I'd rather keep it that way. Seriously, that's just childish. -_-

Ooh called out.

 

[Xebenkeck]

O the internet is such a fun place...

 

[leafbarrett]

I was able to easily (okay, not easily, but it's a very simple change once you know what the hell to do) implement a switch between vBrawl bair and PM bair for Lucario. I want to know if anyone is actually interested before I post the PSA coding.

 

[Dingding123]

Can people please not respond to or quote bubbaking in any way? I have him ignore listed and would rather my experience here be completely devoid of bubbaking, and the quotes aren't helping.

is wies konkdong

edt:i bubkign taek chilpil

 

[bubbaking]

I'm not upset. I just like to post long things some times (all the time) and my opinions are usually controversial. Hopefully no one's taking my comments as an insult.

Edit: I don't even post long things actually. I just reply to a lot of people.

Edit 2: Or is it all the smileys?

You'd rather Wolf weave in, shoot the laser, AD back constantly with walls of lasers that are slow and controlling space, making it extremely difficult for characters slower than he is to get through and attack him? Because that's kind of what would happen and what we experienced when they were laser priority for awhile. Which would make Wolf's matches progressively slower depending on the MU and all that jazz.

Or, would you rather him be able to shoot all the lasers he wants, but characters can get through them reasonably well?

But large characters already can't really get through them anyway. ROB has a hellish time getting through those blasters and so does Zard. Not really counteracting this argument, but I'm pointing out that it is already "extremely difficult for characters slower than he is to get through and attack him." That's just a regular consequence of being slower than another character with a decent projectiles.

SkarmBliss is bad in any gen besides gen3
And it's beaten by magneton there anyway (or lol Nosepass).

A way better example would be politoed + kingdra (and other various rain sweepers)

I agree with your toed + kingdra example, but SkarmBliss has still been very good in the 4th and 5th gens, just less so in 5th. Magneton does not beat SkarmBliss (not with Team Preview on, which is standard in 5th gen) because you can just predict the switch-in once you know Magneton is on the team and either Whirlwind preemptively (which is really good if you have SR and/or spikes up, which is practically mandatory this gen) or just switch to Blissey; Magneton can't touch Blissey.

Of course, you could also just go SkarmChans. Even if you lose the Skarm to Magneton, Chansey can still take care of the dual-core's job by herself just fine. Outside of STAB from SE (Fighting) physical sweepers, I don't think anything in the game can actually 2HKO Evio Chansey (ran the calcs myself for a bunch of them; Chansey too good ). Besides, Magneton's not that popular in 5th gen, probably 'cause he sucks at doing his job.

#Pokemon!

But Falco advancing/wavebounce/retreating lasers are fine?

Slow projectiles are usually better than fast ones but Falco's lasers still take the cake over Wolf's regardless due to the easy land cancel and interruption utility. Falco isn't forced into 10 frames of landing lag for firing one either, and can fire them last second close to the ground.

Falco (and Fox) can actually do something in certain situations that makes firing a laser very useful even if nothing actually comes out. If Falco (and Fox) is in tumble right right after leaving hitstun, he is falling to the ground, and he doesn't have enough time to shake himself upright, he can right himself and land with NO landing lag without having to use an aerial (which would give him landing lag and could be punished). All he has to do is shoot his laser. Even if nothing comes out, he receives no lag from landing and can do whatever the heck he wants. He now has just landed normally after being in hitstun without having to aerial or tech and with a method much, much easier than the shake method.

I actually learned this from a Melee Fox main I used to practice with regularly (Animal). Samus can't upB spacees safely on flat stages because they can punish her for hitting them with it. All they have to do is laser before they hit the ground and they land with no lag, able to punish Samus in whatever way they deem fit. Naturally, Wolf doesn't get this.

 

[KingBlaze777]

"Wolf's lasers having transcendental priority would be too good because it would wreck {a,b,c,d,e,f...} characters because it would make all their attempts at an approach futile"
I deem that argument to be invalid on the grounds that Falco does the same in Melee and P:M (although to a lesser extent due to buffed veterans and strong newcomers), has a lower technical barrier compared to Wolf's WD Lasers and has frame advantage over Wolf's WD Lasers.

If Wolf was meant to be a spacy, why not allow him to enjoy similar strengths that his fellow spacies do? If the PMBR is making a third spacie, then they should make a "true" spacy, not a cheap knock-off (not saying that Wolf sucks, it's just that he's not living up to the expectations of a spacy while having a similar learning curve). Balance-wise, he's a good character. Design-wise he goes half-way across the street, he just needs a little tweaking and some oil in his joints to reach the expectations.

Edit: I apologize if it seems like I'm being aggressive.

 

[ELI-mination]

I'm not upset. I just like to post long things some times (all the time) and my opinions are usually controversial. Hopefully no one's taking my comments as an insult.

Edit: I don't even post long things actually. I just reply to a lot of people.

Edit 2: Or is it all the smileys?



But large characters already can't really get through them anyway. ROB has a hellish time getting through those blasters and so does Zard. Not really counteracting this argument, but I'm pointing out that it is already "extremely difficult for characters slower than he is to get through and attack him." That's just a regular consequence of being slower than another character with a decent projectiles.



I agree with your toed + kingdra example, but SkarmBliss has still been very good in the 4th and 5th gens, just less so in 5th. Magneton does not beat SkarmBliss (not with Team Preview on, which is standard in 5th gen) because you can just predict the switch-in once you know Magneton is on the team and either Whirlwind preemptively (which is really good if you have SR and/or spikes up, which is practically mandatory this gen) or just switch to Blissey; Magneton can't touch Blissey.

Of course, you could also just go SkarmChans. Even if you lose the Skarm to Magneton, Chansey can still take care of the dual-core's job by herself just fine. Outside of STAB from SE (Fighting) physical sweepers, I don't think anything in the game can actually 2HKO Evio Chansey (ran the calcs myself for a bunch of them; Chansey too good ). Besides, Magneton's not that popular in 5th gen, probably 'cause he sucks at doing his job.

#Pokemon!



Falco (and Fox) can actually do something in certain situations that makes firing a laser very useful even if nothing actually comes out. If Falco (and Fox) is in tumble right right after leaving hitstun, he is falling to the ground, and he doesn't have enough time to shake himself upright, he can right himself and land with NO landing lag without having to use an aerial (which would give him landing lag and could be punished). All he has to do is shoot his laser. Even if nothing comes out, he receives no lag from landing and can do whatever the heck he wants. He now has just landed normally after being in hitstun without having to aerial or tech and with a method much, much easier than the shake method.

I actually learned this from a Melee Fox main I used to practice with regularly (Animal). Samus can't upB spacees safely on flat stages because they can punish her for hitting them with it. All they have to do is laser before they hit the ground and they land with no lag, able to punish Samus in whatever way they deem fit. Naturally, Wolf doesn't get this.

10strongbads

 

[bubbaking]

 

[FireBall Stars]

I think you didn't get the point of the design comparison ultimario, but anyway, doesn't make much sense continue a discussion related to umvc3 here since it's straying too much from the analogy pertaining to wolf (specially since I was thinking of morrigan alone without astral vision and you thinking of her with all the possible tools at her disposal).

Even though without proper assists and/or astral vision her keepaway isn't deadly, it can be pretty effective, any morrigan player will say that, including, obviously, myself.

But let's refrain on continuing this.

 

[kaizo13]

out of all the newcomers in 2.1, I felt Wolf was one of the few that wasn't in need of any major changes or re-designing

i've poured countless hours into Wolf:M

his blaster is amazing, people need to spend moar time playing and less time asking for buffs

 

[Spoon~]

Agree'd, Wolf laser can lead into some pretty nice things.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

I think people just want wolf to be as top tier as the other spacies.

 

[DrinkingFood]

people need to spend moar time playing and less time asking for buffs

and less time asking for nerfs
no srsly

 

[Soft Serve]

people need to spend moar time playing and less time asking for buffs

truth
10truths

 

[trash?]

It... kind of makes sense, because if someone's trying to give you an alternative to spacies, then the alternative should be as good (or close, like fox being true top tier but falco being good enough to still be amazing), otherwise there's little reason to pick him. Think shoto characters in SF games: Akuma in 3S wasn't bad (in fact, he was fairly high up in tier lists IIRC), but Ken was just too good that people picked Ken over him.

Where this argument would go depends on how if people see it as either spacies too strong or wolf being too weak, but the former was already in an argument and lord knows I just brought it back SORRY

 

[Strong Badam]

Falco is a better character than Fox in SSBM.

 

[leelue]

Nah ma dude, you got the ill callout by leaf barret. By reasonable extension, falco is mid tier and bbk is pmbr material.

Edit
Your posting habits are unbecoming for a pmbr member. Not that i would know about that.

 

[Xebenkeck]

And we care why???

Because the internet is so incumbant on reality............ha......ha.

 

[Jason!]

Deep Regret pt. 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFL1scp-6wA

 

[`dazrin]

That sounds reasonable and all but all the Ike changes that I've heard about so far just seem to be blatant nerfs. Referring to this post:



I'd just hate to have an underwhelming Ike because of the initial success he's having in 2.1.

Then again I have lot of trust in the PMBR and I know everything is subject to change at this point.

Continue to have faith in the PMBR. We have metroid on the team now, and as you may know, he's probably the best Ike player in the world.

Deep Regret pt. 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFL1scp-6wA

Watch SinisterB get destroyed by gimmicks on my stream.

 

[Asylum]

Falco is a better character than Fox in SSBM.

Fox is a better character than Falco in SSBM.

 

[iLink]

Watch SinisterB get destroyed by gimmicks on my stream.

Link por favor

 

[metroid1117]

Continue to have faith in the PMBR. We have metroid on the team now, and as you may know, he's probably the best Ike player in the world

Vro is so much better than me >.>.

But yeah, keep in mind that we also have Magus and Kizzu on the team. Between the three of us and the other PMBR members, Ike is in good hands.