Project M Social Thread

[stingers]

I played against a Sonic main for the first time recently. Holy **** this character is awesome.

 

[Oro?!]

I very strongly disagree. Sonic does not beat Marth. Marth just needs to get a grab, which is mad easy because of his godlike grab range. The only thing Sonic has over Marth is using his up-b spring to edgeguard. That's about it.

Grabbing the fastest character who is invincible during half of his pressure is hard.

Rat bodies my marth in 2.1. In 2.5 currently I feel Marth does hold an advantage. (because I win)

 

[The Good Doctor]

Sonic is ****ing stupid, I have no idea what I'm supposed to do against him, I have no clue what he's doing, and he's so ****ing fast.

Rat is powerful indeed.

Release Samus so I don't have to deal with this crap please?

 

[B.W.]

Sonic 2.1 is mad underrated. Play Rat's Sonic and you'll quickly realize how good the character is.

spin spin spin.

 

[Kirk]

spin spin spin.

I like to spin spin spin.

 

[bubbaking]

Why? Double jumps are slow, telegraphed and put you into a terrible position. You have all the time in the world to hit her after she jumps, she's not like Puff where she can throw out an aerial and use her mobility to stay safe.

Hmmm, I always felt like Sheik's DJ was quite fast and threatening when combined with fast aerials. Telegraphed definitely was never the thing that came to mind when I thought of Sheik's DJ...

What will this do against ledge invincibility? That's like saying that you have the option to both up+b on stage and up+b on the edge vs the Marth killer. Like... technically you do, but both options will result in the same thing.

The difference is that DJ > RNC > bair (or RNC > DJ > bair) gives Sheik a further reaching, much longer lasting aerial to work with. She can use this to force her way onstage or try to outlast your ledge invincibility frames. It's also really good at preventing the opponent from getting to the ledge if it hasn't done so already. Totally different from DJ fair if you ask me, lolz.

And that's EXACTLY why I'm rather concerned for him with this update. Him and Lucario. Won't this affect the way his combo chains work?

Yes, it will, but it's critical for all the Melee vets to function the way they are meant to. Don't worry about it too much, because it's not like there's going to be a limited time for the new characters' combos to develop or anything. You'll have more than what you need to relearn the combos that change. I was figuring this is going to change Lucario a lot, too. But I don't doubt PMBR has taken appropriate measures to assure that Lucario is still working similarly.

Well you'd think that, but I'm almost certain the PMBR is out to nerf Lucario now that there have been so many cries of "Foul!" over Lucario's features. That, combined with these changes due to the modified game mechanics, might cause Lucario to be completely different (and worse).

Lol at people saying Marth is bad. He was extremely good in Melee because his attacks had insane range and speed, also because of his fsmash and dair (which got nerfed in PAL). His only "weakness" was that he had no projectiles.

He had way more weaknesses than that. His attacks were great on startup, but their cooldown left a bit to be desired (especially fsmash and dair). His range was great, but he had to perfect with his spacing because anything other than a tipper could be easily CC'd and punished (I abused this trait so much as Samus). He also has a horrible OoS game and is easily ledgeguarded if he's forced to upB. He was good but not extremely good.

random stupid ike question

if ike is sent offstage with his jump, and he qd attacks whatever person, can he jump afterwards?

I don't know if anyone ever got back to you on this (and I'm not gonna check), but to answer your question: if Ike hits something with his QD attack, he can upB afterwards. I don't know about jumps, but I'd imagine that he couldn't. My friend went to great lengths to display this quirk about Ike's recovery. Ike can even hit other attacks with it and still recover. For instance, if Lucario shoots his AS at Ike and Ike QD attacks the AS, he can still upB afterwards. Good way to prevent projectile gimps, but I don't know if it will still be in 2.5. Don't know why they'd remove it, though...

 

[stingers]

sonics kinda broken atm. well really it's just one thing. he shouldn't be able to cancel homing attack lag into anything (especially side b lol). too good of an approach imo. hes got a solid kit otherwise, that one thing is just a little bit...eh

 

[Kaye Cruiser]

sonics kinda broken atm.

Oh HERE WE GO~ >>

 

[stingers]

lol come on. if I only said that it'd be different. I just detailed the one main issue I had with the guy

 

[cannedbread]

sonic's dd is intimidating

it's kind of like when someone is sayin huh? huh? loudly at you while you try talk to them or something

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWbwOMJDyB4&feature=youtube_gdata_player

 

[Kaye Cruiser]

lol come on. if I only said that it'd be different. I just detailed the one main issue I had with the guy

A Sonic that can't jump or cancel out of homing a attack is a pretty much crippled and useless Sonic due to how needless long it leaves him open from the air lag and from when he lands since the lag is rather long and HA's knockback isn't spectacular and leaves him about as open for attack as his Up-B does.

At the very least, he should be allowed to jump out of the lag and maybe Down-B. Keeping him from doing anything at all seems a bit too extreme.

That's what I think, anyway. But hey, I'm a Sonic main so I'm kind of bias as it is.

Then again, I'm also a Marth main yet I was ripping on the poor guy earlier. ¦D;

 

[iLink]

I've pretty much given up debating characters and MU's in this topic because it usually boils down to something like,

"I believe this character is ________ and _______ because of _______"

"No, you wrong. Do you even play the character? Do you even play the game? I'm obviously correct and know this game better then you."

 

[cannedbread]

smashmods project m forum is a bit more productive and on topic

 

[Kaye Cruiser]

It's still the same thing, though. Just with a larger vocabulary some British wit to decorate it and make it look more professional than it actually is.

iLink definitely has a point. I've always pretty much thought the same thing, though it's hard not to do.

 

[Xebenkeck]

Discussing the specifics of match-ups right now is pretty pointless, seeing everything is subject to change. This knockback stacking update in-it-of-itself will change certain match-ups.

The only time atm that a match-up should be discussed is if its like a blatently obvious 80-20 90-10 match-up. Cause if this is happenening its obvious a character is lacking something. Which even then I don't think on smashmods we even concluded what was the worst match-up in the game was(there was a thread there for that q?).

 

[Kaye Cruiser]

Well, since that's a moot point, I have a more innocent question that I've been wondering for awhile.

I remember reading way earlier in the thread that the "M" in Project M actually doesn't stand for Melee. Would anyone be more willing to shed some light on it's true meaning at this point? Maybe something along the lines of "Meta"?

In relation, one Project M is a finished product and no longer a "Project", that is the say, when it's out of "Demo" status, will we be seeing a name change for the game?

 

[DrinkingFood]

The M refers to Melee, but doesn't stand for it. Mostly because there's already a "Project Melee".

But the name probs won't change since that's what everyone is used to.

 

[drsusredfish]

Project Mugen. Google it. mugen had the name Project M way before Project Melee.

http://projectm.mgbr.net/

 

[hotdogturtle]

I remember reading way earlier in the thread that the "M" in Project M actually doesn't stand for Melee. Would anyone be more willing to shed some light on it's true meaning at this point? Maybe something along the lines of "Meta"?

Originally, Project M was a "code name" when this game was first announced. The original name of this thread simply said "Project M is coming..." and contained some vague details. Here's an archive of the original post: http://web.archive.org/web/20100116111356/http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=260812 They never specifically said "this mod is aiming to be like Melee", but you were supposed to infer that yourself from the title and the details provided.

Within the first year (before demo 1 was announced IIRC) they said that since Project M had earned such a big reputation already, they didn't think that they would be able to rename the game, and officially dubbed Project M the real name.

But to answer your question, yes, the M stands for Melee.

 

[Kaye Cruiser]

The M refers to Melee, but doesn't stand for it. Mostly because there's already a "Project Melee".

But the name probs won't change since that's what everyone is used to.

...That first line doesn't really make sense. When something stands for something, it also refers to it. You can't do one without the other.

Seriously, what the sense make?

lolredfish

Edit: Thank you, hotdogturtle. That was much easier to understand and made much more sense. :3

 

[JediKnightTemplar]

Discussing the specifics of match-ups right now is pretty pointless, seeing everything is subject to change. This knockback stacking update in-it-of-itself will change certain match-ups.

The only time atm that a match-up should be discussed is if its like a blatently obvious 80-20 90-10 match-up. Cause if this is happenening its obvious a character is lacking something. Which even then I don't think on smashmods we even concluded what was the worst match-up in the game was(there was a thread there for that q?).

The worst matchup in my experience is Ness v. Ike. All of Ness' approaches excluding PK Fire get swatted away by Ike's aerials easily, and PKFire's pretty easy to avoid. The only way he can win is to land a Bthrow, Fsmash, or PKFlash on Ike. His Yoyo might be able to gimp Ike, but I haven't tested that.

 

[ELI-mination]

"Play Rat's Sonic and you'll see"

Lol.

#1.) Stop meatriding
#2.) I've played Leelue, aka case closed, gg, I win the argument.
#3.) Sonic is bad, and so are you guys.
#4.) Grabbing Sonic, or anybody, with Marth is actually not that hard.
#5.) No, Sonic is not good at approaching. If you think homing attack is good for approaching, you are just being taken by surprise because you have no experience fighting Sonic. If you fight Sonic for like an hour, you'll realize he's almost completely a bait-and-punish character, he can't approach well or kill well except by gimping. Assuming you're not bad.

 

[stingers]

what do you do vs HA? Im admittedly lacking in exp.

 

[ELI-mination]

what do you do vs HA? Im admittedly lacking in exp.

Stingers, you play Charizard right? Well congrats on being one of the like 3-4 characters that are worse than Sonic and can't do ****.

But basically Sonic loses to hitboxes. The more well-spaced attacks you throw out there, the more you shut down Sonic as a character. One thing you don't wanna do is sit in your shield. But if you happen to accidentally shield a homing attack, go for an up-b OoS (depending on your character).

For example, if you're GnW, spam b-airs and just watch and laugh at Sonic as he dash dances. Or if you're Marth, space your f-airs and u-tilts until you can land a grab, which is easy with your godlike grab range. Once you land a grab with Marth, Sonic is practically dead from your follow-ups. If you're Sheik, space n-airs. If you're Mario, space d-airs.

Basically throw out hitboxes constantly; You can't fight Sonic like he's a normal character. You can't sit in your shield. You have to throw out well-spaced attacks to shut down Sonic completely. And if the Sonic player is amazing it doesn't matter that much, because Sonic can deal very little damage here and there. That's why Sonic has to constantly go for gimps.

 

[DrinkingFood]

...That first line doesn't really make sense. When something stands for something, it also refers to it. You can't do one without the other.

When something stands for something, it also refers to it, yes. But something referring to something else does not mean it stands for it. All cows are mammals but not all mammals are cos. same principle. You can have one without the other if that one is just a reference. If you have a reference, does it stand for exactly what it's referring to? Nope. The problem here is not my choice of words, it's your understanding.

Saying it refers to Melee but doesn't stand for it makes perfect sense.

 

[9Kplus1]

what do you do vs HA? Im admittedly lacking in exp.

Jab

 

[Giygacoal]

I think the word you're looking for is "derived". The M is derived from "Melee", but the official name of the project isn't "Project Melee". Don't make it sound complicated.

 

[MaxThunder]

what do you do vs HA? Im admittedly lacking in exp.

Jab...

Edit: oh ninja 9k...

 

[bubbaking]

Stingers, you play Charizard right? Well congrats on being one of the like 3-4 characters that are worse than Sonic and can't do ****.

Oh god, I remember spending an hour and a half playing Zard with your Sonic (and even longer against Leelue's) while I learned this lesson...

 

[Professor Pro]

Marth bodies snake so hard

It's actually not that bad when you become accostum with the Match-Up.

You just have to play a bit more cautious than in most MU's and there's good few things you can exploit off of him.

Just keep practicing it.

 

[DMG]

Eli's right about Sonic. ALTHOUGH getting the grab on Sonic is hard, I tend to only get it off a hit like Fair Utilt etc (As Marth)

 

[The Good Doctor]

Some players play really differently, Rat's Sonic can take on Metroid and Vro who are two of the better PM players around atm so he's not trash.

 

[leelue]

Sonic is invincible during frames 4-9 of aerial side b, which is not part of his pressure game, oro.
Unless you're talking about the random invulnerability frames in up smash lol

And doc, nobody's saying rat is bad
Fighting sonic is an acquired skill.

Also
Ike sonic isnt a bad matchup as far as sonic matchups go, so to hear one of the best sonic players do well against ikes is no surprise

 

[DrinkingFood]

Not true Leelue
Ike can't have bad matchups
He can't even have even matchups, or slightly advantageous matchups
'cause he's so broken, clearly better than top tier
Or maybe he's just really high up in top tier, but he shouldn't lose to sonic no way man

 

[bubbaking]

So today I hosted a Project: M tournament at Washington's monthly Gameclucks tournament, here are the results:

Project M 1v1
$3 entry fee
21 entrants

1. Silentwolf
2. Gimpyfish

Ahhh, the top two placers used rivalry chars! "Can't let you do that, Starfox!" "So long-y Bowsa!"

Pit (Marth probably wins)
Lucario (Same as Ike)

There's not a single Brawl character I can honestly say for sure beats Marth.

Don't sleep on Pit! Marth already has a weakness against projectiles and Pit has some of the best around. Marth's floatiness makes combos off of arrow hit confirms easier too. Marth is also really easy to gimp with arrows. Also, I don't think too many people realize the usefulness of Pit's Mirror Shield when used correctly. A move that turns around the opponent if they attack it right after it comes out is an invaluable tool for reads and punishing telegraphed actions. This shield is especially applicable in the Marth MU because of his slower than average cooldown on a lot of his attacks. I believe Pit's mirror doesn't suffer from the pushback and shieldstun that a regular shield would take from an attack when it's reflecting (could someone confirm this for me?), so Pit could easily forego the disadvantages of shielding an attack while taking full advantage of Marth's cooldown. The super armor it provides on startup helps, too. Oh, and the shield also helps for edgeguarding too. If Marth is recovering and he upB's a bit high, the mirror will turn him around and, well, kill him. If Marth is close to the stage and you predict he's gonna DJ fair or try to sideB you away, Mirror Shield and now he's facing away and has to bair or use a special to turn around. Pit can take advantage of this to dtilt him or send him further offstage.

I also greatly think that Lucario straight up beats Marth. Between ****** shields and edgeguarding like a boss, Lucario's got his victories lined up for him. Between having a bad OoS game and a bad recovery for avoiding edgeguards, Marth can't really do much to fight those specific strengths. AS for long range zoning and DT to phase through and punish laggy moves and grabs, I think Lucario has that one.

On the Melee side:

DK (DUH Marth wins)
Link (Marth wins)

His other MU's are relatively the same. Only 2-3 that come to mind that may have really shifted would be Peach Ganon Shiek. Peach Ganon got a bit harder, Shiek maybe roughly the same or a bit easier.

I believe Marth beats DK too, but I just wanted to point that DK now has a larger grab range than Marth as well as a more comparable DD game, thanks to his new-found DA option out of it, the larger grab range, and the improved aerials.

Link:Marth may not be as free for Marth as you think. Link has the range to contest with Marth in CQC and his specialty is Marth's weakness: projectiles. He can make life really hard for Marth with his long-range game and once Marth finally gets in, he has to deal with Link's decent CQC game. I'm actually thinking more along the lines of even for this MU. However, I would like to point out something. Some people, like Hylian, have pointed out that Link can just grab Marth's extremities/limbs and whatnot. While that may be true, Link also lost a very valuable tool in this MU: the length of his hookshot. See, in Melee, if Marth hit Link's shield with an fsmash, Link could shieldgrab him and get a very reliable punish for it. I believe now, Link's clawshot is too short. I still think the MU is even, but I just wanted to point that out.

Sheik probably got harder for Marth, thanks to new bthrow combos. Sheik never really CG'd Marth in Melee anyway.

DDD is blatantly high tier, if not top.

DDD for Top Tier? Man, you must really love this character... This is quite a bit different from the popular opinion that DDD's kinda bad.

 

[ph00tbag]

Whenever someone says a character's main weakness is hitboxes, I always have to wonder why they're running into so many hitboxes.

 

[DrinkingFood]

What they mean is he has no priority. Sometimes, you do have to be able to beat out someone else's move....

 

[ph00tbag]

Again.

Why are you running into hitboxes, when you know even trading isn't likely to favor you?

 

[leafbarrett]

Again.

Why are you running into hitboxes, when you know even trading isn't likely to favor you?

That's the thing. Those particular matchup strategies rely on maintaining a "wall" of hitboxes to keep the less-favored character at bay. If they can't get around the hitboxes, then their only option is to try to overwhelm the hitboxes, and since they can't do that either, they're kinda stuck. At least, that's the gist of what I'm gathering regarding that particular type of matchup. I don't have any experience in the matter, so I could be talking out my *** for all I know.

...wait, why is that censored but damn isn't?

 

[DMG]

Sonic vs a few characters is basically limited to camping them/picking a large stage hope they can't do anything.