Project M Social Thread

[Kaye Cruiser]

Just realized that momentum stacking will affect sonic spindash stuff, for better or worse.

And that's EXACTLY why I'm rather concerned for him with this update. Him and Lucario. Won't this affect the way his combo chains work?

 

[DrinkingFood]

And that's EXACTLY why I'm rather concerned for him with this update. Him and Lucario. Won't this affect the way his combo chains work?

Yes, it will, but it's critical for all the Melee vets to function the way they are meant to. Don't worry about it too much, because it's not like there's going to be a limited time for the new characters' combos to develop or anything. You'll have more than what you need to relearn the combos that change. I was figuring this is going to change Lucario a lot, too. But I don't doubt PMBR has taken appropriate measures to assure that Lucario is still working similarly.

 

[V-K]

Lol at people saying Marth is bad. He was extremely good in Melee because his attacks had insane range and speed, also because of his fsmash and dair (which got nerfed in PAL). His only "weakness" was that he had no projectiles.

In P:M he seems solid, although in 2.1 at least he feels different from his Melee version. I think he is a good Ike-Counter because they both have similar range, but Marth's moves just come out faster.

So today I hosted a Project: M tournament at Washington's monthly Gameclucks tournament, here are the results:

Project M 1v1
$3 entry fee
21 entrants

1. Silentwolf
2. Gimpyfish
3. Bladewise
4. Gage
5. Eggz (forfeit to Gage)
5. Toph
7. Jeff
7. The Epitome of Loss
9. Mattnumbers
9. Rori
9. :random: Lolikanon
9. :random: Kage Ryu
13. Sharon
13. Shadic
13. Badcupboard
13. Maurice
17. Ka-Master
17. :random: Kero
17. Broshi
17. :random: Shoopthewhoop
DQ: Evan E

Shadic or anyone else that was there if you can fill in the blanks I have for who used what character(s) please let me know.

Cool, any vids?

 

[DMG]

I think what would make Marth good vs Ike is being able to bait his range with WD or DD, and strong edge guarding options regardless of what Ike picks.

 

[JCaesar]

^ pretty much exactly that. I love Marth vs Ike.

Though I'm starting to get a good handle on ROB vs Ike as well.


Wasn't Daze at that tourney? He's not on the results.

Mattnumbers, can you post the results here as well? http://www.smashmods.com/forum/thread-2099.html

 

[Juushichi]

ROB vs Ike isn't all that awful in my experience.

I gotta get back into play this again, after Carrollfest there's another Columbus PM smashfest.

 

[JCaesar]

What Ikes have you played Juu? I play one of the top ones (Nintendude) pretty regularly, so my Ike experience may be a bit different than yours.

 

[cannedbread]

random stupid ike question

if ike is sent offstage with his jump, and he qd attacks whatever person, can he jump afterwards?

 

[ELI-mination]

I can't believe there's like a whole page talking about how Marth isn't that good. He's definitely one of the best characters in the game. Yes he's better than Ike.

 

[SFA Smiley]

>Bowser
>Don't give a **** about KB stacking
>Just gonna fsmash shields and spam up-b

Aww Yeah.

 

[leafbarrett]

And that's EXACTLY why I'm rather concerned for him with this update. Him and Lucario. Won't this affect the way his combo chains work?

Well, they're obviously going to adjust for that... They didn't get this far by overlooking critical facts like that.

 

[DMG]

I can't believe there's like a whole page talking about how Marth isn't that good. He's definitely one of the best characters in the game. Yes he's better than Ike.

^^^^

What has changed or been added, that is dropping Marth so low in people's minds? Let's go over his MU spread vs the Brawl characters added, and characters that got buffed

Brawl chacters:

Wario (Marth wins duh)
Sonic (Marth probably wins, ask yourself if you think Sonic could do better than even)
Pit (Marth probably wins)
Snake (Marth probably wins)
TL (Ahaaaaha don't be serious)
Wolf (Marth prob wins)
D3 (Marth wins)
Charizard (Don't ask)
ROB (Marth wins)
Lucas (Same boat as Sonic)
Ike (Might be even, inclined to think Marth may do a bit better)
Lucario (Same as Ike)

Wouldn't be a long shot to think Squirtle and Ivy will probably lose to Marth too. At worst, maybe go even.

There's not a single Brawl character I can honestly say for sure beats Marth.

On the Melee side:

DK (DUH Marth wins)
Bowser (Again duh)
Mario (Don't say Mario wins Eli, you know Marth's big pee pee sword won't have none of it)
Link (Marth wins)
Zelda (Marth prob wins)

His other MU's are relatively the same. Only 2-3 that come to mind that may have really shifted would be Peach Ganon Shiek. Peach Ganon got a bit harder, Shiek maybe roughly the same or a bit easier.


So, out of new characters, who beats Marth exactly? Who from Melee got buffed or changed that now does remarkably better against Marth? (Mario comes to mind but what does he win now? I don't see it)


If you have a Brawl character that beats Marth, not named Ike or Lucario, I'd love to hear it lol. Or if Ganon now beats him. SHOW ME THE MONEY

>Bowser
>Don't give a **** about KB stacking
>Just gonna fsmash shields and spam up-b

Aww Yeah.

Bowser never gives a ****

 

[Dingding123]

^^^^

What has changed or been added, that is dropping Link so low in people's minds? Let's go over his MU spread vs the Brawl characters added, and characters that got buffed

Brawl chacters:

Wario (Link wins duh)
Sonic (Link probably wins, ask yourself if you think Sonic could do better than even)
Pit (Link probably wins)
Snake (Link probably wins)
TL (Ahaaaaha don't be serious)
Wolf (Link prob wins)
D3 (Link wins)
Charizard (Don't ask)
ROB (Link wins)
Lucas (Same boat as Sonic)
Ike (Might be even, inclined to think Link may do a bit better)
Lucario (Same as Ike)

Wouldn't be a long shot to think Squirtle and Ivy will probably lose to Link too. At worst, maybe go even.

There's not a single Brawl character I can honestly say for sure beats Link.

On the Melee side:

DK (DUH Link wins)
Bowser (Again duh)
Mario (Don't say Mario wins Eli, you know Link big pee pee sword won't have none of it)
Marth (Link wins)
Zelda (Link prob wins)

His other MU's are relatively the same. Only 2-3 that come to mind that may have really shifted would be Peach Ganon Shiek. Peach Ganon got a bit easier, Shiek maybe roughly the easier or a bit easier.


So, out of new characters, who beats Link exactly? Who from Melee got buffed or changed that now does remarkably better against Link? (Mario comes to mind but what does he win now? I don't see it)


If you have a Brawl character that beats Link, not named Ike or Lucario, I'd love to hear it lol. Or if Ganon now beats him.




Bowser never gives a ****

10%0 ager

good siri

 

[Xebenkeck]

Marth still molests the earthbound kids pretty hard as well.

 

[DMG]

I figured Ness was obvious, Lucas is debatable but again most of the characters in question it's whether they go even or does Marth edge them out. There is no "Yeah Pit ****s on Marth" new character or buff imo lol

 

[victra♥]

So today I hosted a Project: M tournament at Washington's monthly Gameclucks tournament, here are the results:

Project M 1v1
$3 entry fee
21 entrants

1. Silentwolf
2. Gimpyfish
3. Bladewise
4. Gage
5. Eggz (forfeit to Gage)
5. Toph
7. Jeff
7. The Epitome of Loss
9. Mattnumbers
9. Rori
9. :random: Lolikanon
9. :random: Kage Ryu
13. Sharon
13. Shadic
13. Badcupboard
13. Maurice
17. Ka-Master
17. :random: Kero
17. Broshi
17. :random: Shoopthewhoop
DQ: Evan E

Shadic or anyone else that was there if you can fill in the blanks I have for who used what character(s) please let me know.

oh cool gimpyfish and kamaster, cool to see them still playing

 

[Sanity's_Theif]

Marth doesn't need buffs, hell no

Roommate and I were talking about balance changes we think link needs. We both came to the conclusion that he's pretty much perfect as is except for two things.

1. Take away his long chaingrabs so he doesn't destroy characters like lucas so badly.

2. Give him a faster running speed. This alone will make him viable against Fox/Falco and other fast characters while not giving him too much of an advantage or one at all in his already evenish match-ups.

Thoughts?

Didn't you say Link was perfect in every way before? What made you change your mind? Not that I disagree, faster running speed would help and wouldn't make much of a difference

 

[Hylian]

Link (Marth wins)

I don't see any way Marth beats Link >_>. If marth ever hits link shield with fair he's taking a lot of damage, marth gets combo'd to hell and back by link, has trouble comboing link, has trouble edgeguarding link, and all around just loses to link.

Marth doesn't need buffs, hell no



Didn't you say Link was perfect in every way before? What made you change your mind? Not that I disagree, faster running speed would help and wouldn't make much of a difference

Just more experience against a variety of players.

 

[Juushichi]

Just when local people play Ike is my experience. I don't have someone like Nintendude or metroid unfortunately. I do think that I would have to play some more developed Ikes to really keep that earlier opinion, though.

It just hasn't felt all that bad so far.

 

[DMG]

???

I disagree with that heavily. Link beating Marth is wrong

 

[Gimpel]

rather than a faster run speed, I think Link could use a faster jump startup (as in, 1 frame less).
Just my personal opinion

 

[Hylian]

???

I disagree with that heavily. Link beating Marth is wrong

...Why? Link did well vs marth in melee, link is wayyyyy better now and marth is pretty much unchanged how would marth not lose to him? Link can literally just grab marth out of the air when marth uses fair and then dthrow utiltX2, nair x2 if they DI forward, bair-> nair if the DI backwards and then FF and run under them to punish landing with rang. Link just shuts down marths options hard, Marth has trouble approaching, edgeguarding, killing, comboing link. I think it's marths worst match-up lol. Link has easy 80% combos off several of his moves and his grabs on marth.

 

[V-K]

From the matches I've played I think Pit and Link can do well against Marth because they can hurt him pretty good with those projectiles and D3 is just an amazing character overall with good range and hard to finish off.

 

[cannedbread]

that marth can be p sneaky though

 

[leafbarrett]

Hate to interject into the matchup chat, but I noticed something odd about Lucario's ftilt. The hitboxes & graphics seem to trigger 2 frames too early. .-.

 

[Jolteon]

^^^^

What has changed or been added, that is dropping Marth so low in people's minds? Let's go over his MU spread vs the Brawl characters added, and characters that got buffed

Brawl chacters:

Wario (Marth wins duh)
Sonic (Marth probably wins, ask yourself if you think Sonic could do better than even)
Pit (Marth probably wins)
Snake (Marth probably wins)
TL (Ahaaaaha don't be serious)
Wolf (Marth prob wins)
D3 (Marth wins)
Charizard (Don't ask)
ROB (Marth wins)
Lucas (Same boat as Sonic)
Ike (Might be even, inclined to think Marth may do a bit better)
Lucario (Same as Ike)

Wouldn't be a long shot to think Squirtle and Ivy will probably lose to Marth too. At worst, maybe go even.

There's not a single Brawl character I can honestly say for sure beats Marth.

On the Melee side:

DK (DUH Marth wins)
Bowser (Again duh)
Mario (Don't say Mario wins Eli, you know Marth's big pee pee sword won't have none of it)
Link (Marth wins)
Zelda (Marth prob wins)

His other MU's are relatively the same. Only 2-3 that come to mind that may have really shifted would be Peach Ganon Shiek. Peach Ganon got a bit harder, Shiek maybe roughly the same or a bit easier.


So, out of new characters, who beats Marth exactly? Who from Melee got buffed or changed that now does remarkably better against Marth? (Mario comes to mind but what does he win now? I don't see it)


If you have a Brawl character that beats Marth, not named Ike or Lucario, I'd love to hear it lol. Or if Ganon now beats him. SHOW ME THE MONEY




Bowser never gives a ****

I think it's way too early to make general sweeping statements about a character's match-up chart. Like, how many of these match-ups do you have extensive experience in?

For the record, I think Marth is still an extremely good character and anyone who feels that they can't compete with him or that he's underpowered is johning.

 

[GaretHax]

Hate to interject into the matchup chat, but I noticed something odd about Lucario's ftilt. The hitboxes & graphics seem to trigger 2 frames too early. .-.

I might not understand exactly what you are trying to say, but if I recall you can't judge PM animations or moves using just brawlbox because they use codes that modify the speed of moves and other goodies in runtime.

 

[DrinkingFood]

>bowser
>don't give a **** about kb stacking
>just gonna fsmash shields and spam up-b

aww yeah.

MAH BOI

Spoiler

all caps

 

[DMG]

Plenty of those MU's are pretty obvious. It's not like Marth 7:3's all of these characters anyways (and understand I put 55:45's in his favor as "winning" even though it would be incredibly slight)

I'm just saying hey, what MU's or changes are going on that's got people so bummed about Marth? It's like something awful happened and we live in a world where the Luigi's and DK's of the world got buffed and he can't handle it. Like seriously, how far do people think he's dropped from his old spot? If anything, it's characters like Lucario Ike etc that may be above him simply because idk they had a fetish for DBZ style teleport fighting and bigger swords need safety. Like how big do you all want top 5 to be? You already got Spacies and Jiggs, add Link Lucas Lucario Ike Mario lets see GANON man he's a boss, Shiek is still good OH GOD Peach

We may as well put Marth mid tier, because I heard Pikachu is amazing now with the ability to QAC. What a bad character you guys

(Yes Marth is good you're all poo muffins, that's right literal poo muffins)

 

[9Kplus1]

^^^^

What has changed or been added, that is dropping Marth so low in people's minds? Let's go over his MU spread vs the Brawl characters added, and characters that got buffed

Brawl chacters:
D3 (Marth wins)
...
There's not a single Brawl character I can honestly say for sure beats Marth

DDD destroys Marth for quite a few reasons, actually (inb4 "cuz DDD outranges Marth")

 

[DMG]

DDD smells like Marshmallows

Argument won

(I don't like D3, I think that's a character to get behind the mid tier train. Not Marth)

 

[9Kplus1]

DDD is blatantly high tier, if not top.

 

[KingBlaze777]

D3 is definitely a high tier. His air game is very good, he has great range and power to match it. Oh and he uses minions as a projectile.

 

[Sanity's_Theif]

I don't see any way Marth beats Link >_>. If marth ever hits link shield with fair he's taking a lot of damage, marth gets combo'd to hell and back by link, has trouble comboing link, has trouble edgeguarding link, and all around just loses to link.

If these matchup charts still hold any significance, then Marth had a large advantage over Link in Melee

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=294133

Link got better, but I don't think he got so much better that he's better than Marth, I'd say even at best, maybe

 

[Sethlon]

Sonic (Marth probably wins, ask yourself if you think Sonic could do better than even)

I actually think 2.1 Sonic has the advantage in this matchup.
Sonic's main weakness is characters just putting out meaty hitboxes, and none of marth's moves stay out for any duration (other than nair, but that doesn't hit below him so it doesn't really help against overB spin). If marth ever whiffs a move (which he likely will, Sonic run speed and all), he's going to get overB'd, and hes a good weight for Sonic's spin combos. If Sonic ever gets to the ledge before marth is forced to upB, instant spring beats his upB straight out, making for easy finishes. And Sonic is a bit floatier than Marth likes for combos, IMO; if Marth gets a tip fsmash at the optimal moment it can be curtains for Sonic early, but otherwise he has a hard time finishing Sonic off (which was one of his main weaknesses in Melee).

 

[Spoon~]

Snake (Marth probably wins)

Marth bodies snake so hard

 

[Mattnumbers]

Wasn't Daze at that tourney? He's not on the results.

Mattnumbers, can you post the results here as well? http://www.smashmods.com/forum/thread-2099.html

Daze wasn't there, and I'll post on that thread as soon as I'm sure that I'm accurate in who used who.

oh cool gimpyfish and kamaster, cool to see them still playing

Poor Ka-master didn't even get to try P:M once before the tournament and got wrecked. He's still amazing in melee though (he got 3rd narrowly losing to Silentwolf and Bladewise in Melee singles). I'm sure he'd dominate the P:M bracket if he put in some time to get used to it.

 

[Comeback Kid]

With such high level theorysmashing in this thread, who needs playtesters?

 

[leafbarrett]

Lol, if only that were true.

 

[ELI-mination]

I actually think 2.1 Sonic has the advantage in this matchup.
Sonic's main weakness is characters just putting out meaty hitboxes, and none of marth's moves stay out for any duration (other than nair, but that doesn't hit below him so it doesn't really help against overB spin). If marth ever whiffs a move (which he likely will, Sonic run speed and all), he's going to get overB'd, and hes a good weight for Sonic's spin combos. If Sonic ever gets to the ledge before marth is forced to upB, instant spring beats his upB straight out, making for easy finishes. And Sonic is a bit floatier than Marth likes for combos, IMO; if Marth gets a tip fsmash at the optimal moment it can be curtains for Sonic early, but otherwise he has a hard time finishing Sonic off (which was one of his main weaknesses in Melee).

I very strongly disagree. Sonic does not beat Marth. Marth just needs to get a grab, which is mad easy because of his godlike grab range. The only thing Sonic has over Marth is using his up-b spring to edgeguard. That's about it.