leafbarrett
Smash Lord
All I know is that in 2.1, he can't normally wallcling.
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Project M Social Thread
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bubbaking
Smash Hero
His aerials are good.....when there are bananas around. Bananas were what made his grab game good. I'm really not worried at all about his recovery. It was already 'Melee-esque' in vBrawl. All they have to do is leave it like it is.
Kaye Cruiser
Waveshocker Sigma
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Hiya Leaf. Haven't seen you in years. ¦D
Didn't notice the lack of wallcling, which is surprising since I play Lucario 3rd most in P:M, but it honestly doesn't feel like he needs it as much as before at this point, if you ask me.
It depends. Diddy was a strong character defensively due to dual banana/camp setups plus shield. He's not going to have the same versatility OOS that he did in Brawl, and Banana punishes may net you less depending on how it's going to work for him now. It would be lame if all he got was 7-8% and they trip/tech away. Onstage also tended to be either from having 2 bananas to link into each other, or landing a hit from a defensive position and getting free stuff from the trip.
Stunts
Smash Journeyman
His fair and bair can wall or be a finisher, is uair could juggle, and his dair could meteor/spike, he's currently limited to one banana and it would make sense for sideB to wallcling, but UpB is practicly a suicide button. At least with Lucario's UpB he doesnt explode when he hits the wall. I just don't know how they would handle it without contradicting P:M current engine or changing the move indefinately.
Maybe thats what is holding Diddy back.
Maybe thats what is holding Diddy back.
leelue
Smash Lord
I think what's holding diddy back is that his lead developer is a kid of some kind
GunBlaze
Smash Lord
Meanwhile in other news, players start complaining about a lack of self-destructive behavior as seen in this exclusive:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_oxI7mnquU
EDIT: LAST MINUE NEWS!
According to witness GoldenHeartNeko, syunJPNbrawlplus has released a new combo video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=994u2RkURZ4&feature=g-all-c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_oxI7mnquU
EDIT: LAST MINUE NEWS!
According to witness GoldenHeartNeko, syunJPNbrawlplus has released a new combo video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=994u2RkURZ4&feature=g-all-c
bubbaking
Smash Hero
Well, you can charge it so that it's a long-range recovery option (his ONLY long-range recovery option). Decrease its landing lag to anywhere around 2-10 frames so it's not easily punished if Diddy decides to land onstage and you have a fine recovery. The spacees get that with their upB, why not Diddy? It would be balanced because you can't really fight for the ledge with it, so it's easily edgehogged. This would also balance the risk of hitting a wall. Aim well and you should be able to recover with no problem. Of course, he's probably being given lag of some sort, so none of this applies...
Isn't that still better than the lead develop for that blue hedgehog fellow?
GunBlaze
Smash Lord
That's low, dude.Isn't that still better than the lead develop for that blue hedgehog fellow?
leelue
Smash Lord
"The spacies get it, why not [character]"
This statement is demonstrably giggle-inducing
Furthermore, don't forget that diddys charge isn't on a set timer, which makes edgeguarding it on reaction a bit more difficult
This statement is demonstrably giggle-inducing
Furthermore, don't forget that diddys charge isn't on a set timer, which makes edgeguarding it on reaction a bit more difficult
UltiMario
Out of Obscurity
It's also as unprofessional looking as you can get.
Even sakurai wasn't that bad, and he missed the Sheik/Ivysaur Grab glitch.
JOE!
Smash Hero
doesnt the same thing happen with MK/Kirby Uthrow?
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
Giving Diddy a bad recovery to offset a stupidly good on-stage game isn't balanced at all. See also: Marth, Olimar.
Just make him you know, a good character like everyone else gets to be. Or give him a good recovery and good on stage game like non-Wolf spacies. They don't seem to mind having 100% safe options options on-stage at any given time and the ability to make it back to the stage with an absurd amount of variability to their recovery.
Just make him you know, a good character like everyone else gets to be. Or give him a good recovery and good on stage game like non-Wolf spacies. They don't seem to mind having 100% safe options options on-stage at any given time and the ability to make it back to the stage with an absurd amount of variability to their recovery.
ds22
Smash Lord
You all do need to realize that modifying special grabs and throws still isn't 100% precise (notice how Koopa Klaw auto-throws people in Project M?)
Same thing goes with adding Kirbyesque throws, it can be done, but it isn't flawless.
Same thing goes with adding Kirbyesque throws, it can be done, but it isn't flawless.
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
Not sure how this follows. Fox, Falco, Peach, and Sheik are the best designed characters in the game and many Lucases I mean characters were specifically designed around having parallels in opportunity to those offered to these characters. It only follows that people would want characters to be you know
Good.
leelue
Smash Lord
As good
And good because of the same reasons
Are two different things
Unless, of course, I missed your sarcasm
That phrase I quoted made me think of short hop waddles and ivysaur pillars
I mean, there's no reason why character x couldn't deserve low lag out of their up B, but the "he got it so why not whoever" doesn't (shouldn't) hold water. Perhaps for wolf or something like that... something flavorful...
And good because of the same reasons
Are two different things
Unless, of course, I missed your sarcasm
That phrase I quoted made me think of short hop waddles and ivysaur pillars
I mean, there's no reason why character x couldn't deserve low lag out of their up B, but the "he got it so why not whoever" doesn't (shouldn't) hold water. Perhaps for wolf or something like that... something flavorful...
Shadow Huan
Smash Champion
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
No sarcasm, and good for the same reasons doesn't have to mean good because of having the same moves either. Top tier characters are good in every game because they have the safest options, because they have traits that allow them to be good in the first place. Not every character needs to have all of the same traits, but having a handful that have proven themselves sensibly good in addition to their unique traits is nothing short of good design. When five of the top six characters in the game have a particular trait in common, it stands to reason that that trait is one worth looking into as a universal standard.
The only top character in Melee without a safe recovery is Marth; Just so happens, Marth is also one of the only top tiers whose position is seen as suspect at the moment. Correlation, not causation mind you, but something worth noting for sure.
If Peach and Jigglypuff and Sheik get to have low-lag up-B's, why not Diddy? We don't can just throw out spacies from the equation altogether and it still stands to reason that some things are okay to be low on lag throughout the cast. Some still have "bad landings" and in fact most do, which is fine; you should have to make a conscious effort when deciding the best recovery, and doing an input even as little as Peach fast falling from her parasol is a fine enough example of such.
But the recovery nonsense is such a non-issue in the end. Diddy's game and public opinion is not going to be made or broken by looking at his ability to get back on stage. Marth can barely manage it in Melee and does just fine by avoiding the situation in the first place.
The only top character in Melee without a safe recovery is Marth; Just so happens, Marth is also one of the only top tiers whose position is seen as suspect at the moment. Correlation, not causation mind you, but something worth noting for sure.
If Peach and Jigglypuff and Sheik get to have low-lag up-B's, why not Diddy? We don't can just throw out spacies from the equation altogether and it still stands to reason that some things are okay to be low on lag throughout the cast. Some still have "bad landings" and in fact most do, which is fine; you should have to make a conscious effort when deciding the best recovery, and doing an input even as little as Peach fast falling from her parasol is a fine enough example of such.
But the recovery nonsense is such a non-issue in the end. Diddy's game and public opinion is not going to be made or broken by looking at his ability to get back on stage. Marth can barely manage it in Melee and does just fine by avoiding the situation in the first place.
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
When done high, she'll have low landing lag. Pikachu/Pichu's is the same I think? Like you have to be falling enough to go into actual special fall, not just the animation at the end of Up-B.
bubbaking
Smash Hero
I was making a comparison between Falco and Diddy because someone stated that Diddy would probably have a very good on-stage game. I cited how Falco has an incredible on-stage game while also having a very flexible recovery (once he's within range of the stage) as well as a very low lag upB (2-4 frames, I believe). Now, unless the PMBR completely overhauls Diddy's recovery, it's obvious that his recovery won't be nearly as flexible as Falco's. However, if he got the same property of having low lag from landing onstage, then it would balance out the rest of his 'bad recovery' by allowing him to bypass the ledge game and simply aim to land onstage without punishment, the same way Falco gets to.
I don't see what was so hard to understand about that statement...
I don't see what was so hard to understand about that statement...
Why do I feel like this is not true?
That's true, but Sheik's aerial mobility is too poor to take advantage of that fact (except on stages like Kongo Jungle), she's not like Falcon where you can weave in and out to try and trick the opponent, they can just react to your movement and hit you off stage again.
Sheik is a perfect example of why a top tier character does not need a good recovery. She's an absolutely wonderful character who has many strengths and a fantastic neutral game. That said, her recovery is absolutely atrocious. She's the only top tier character that gets consistently edgeguard looped, and yet she manages to maintain a very good match-up spread and good tournament results.
PM does work with the Japanese version?
standardtoaster
Tubacabra
Yes, there is a Japanese version of Project M.
I imagine making throws like Kirby, et. al.'s SD when done such that they end offstage is a goal, but implementing it is proving tremendously difficult.
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
I'd still say she's on the upper half of recoveries. A character doesn't have as many options as she does when recovering and gets dismissed as having a bad one. She does have one of the lower ones compared to other top tier characters though. Better than Marth's/Ice Climbers at least.
JediKnightTemplar
Smash Lord
Last I checked Marth was considered solid. Don't get me wrong, having the Smash Bros equivalent of Phoenix from MvC3 would be fricking dumb, but I don't see a any problem with Diddy having a bad recovery to offset a good onstage game.
Kaye Cruiser
Waveshocker Sigma
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Then you clearly haven't checked in a long time. ¦D
On a subject of aesthetics, isn't it about time P:M's FD got a decent transitioning background that matched the platform's Melee feel without textures that are too distracting? (lolgreenclouds)
Something like...Oh I dunno...
Tabuu's background, perhaps?
MonkUnit
Project M Back Roomer
Use the
tag.
Kaye Cruiser
Waveshocker Sigma
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Much obliged, Monk. Truly, you have enlightened me and set me forth on the path of a higher learning, understanding, and means to exist peaceful in this chaotic and conflicted modern age of human life.
I'd tip my hat to you, but I haven't got a hat. (bububububum bum bum bum~)
I'd tip my hat to you, but I haven't got a hat. (bububububum bum bum bum~)
She has options, but doesn't really have any mix-ups, nearly every character has the same flowchart to edgeguard Sheik.
1. Wait outside Sheik's fair/dj needle range when she's floating to the edge (if she isn't recovering from high then skip to 3).
2a. If she djs, needles or fairs, react and bair her.
2b. If she just drops low, grab the edge.
3. Maintain frame invincibility on the edge when Sheik is in range to double jump and swat you.
4. Wait for Sheik to poof.
5. Press left/right when Sheik poofs.
6a. If Sheik goes for the edge, she dies.
6b. If Sheik poofs onto the edge (or air dodges), choose optimal bnb combo to reset her position off-stage (falcon: stomp -> knee, falco: shine -> punish, fox: waveshine across the stage -> punish, pal marth: dair -> tip etc.)
6c. If Sheik poofs onto a platform, take the same steps as you would in 4b.
6d. If Sheik up+bs vertically up then wd onto the edge.
6e. If Sheik spaces an up+b to land directly onto the edge, wait.
You can also just bair her out of her up+b start-up (since it takes too long for the invincibility frames) if she does it too close to the edge, this is a BIG weakness about her recovery which not enough people exploit.
Examples:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1k2YlATUvXg (1:05, 1:22, 1:53, 2:05)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1m1a_qYvWdc (1:35, 7:50)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpzCmzCM84c (3:10, 4:10)
This is a little different when she still has a double jump and an air dodge at low percents (since she has the mix-ups to both dj -> sweetspot and dj -> air dodge), but those are universal options, not Sheik specific.
Sheik also has the option to drop down and wall jump -> air dodge/bair/reverse needle on certain stages, which I guess is the closest thing she has to a mix-up, but from experience someone who understands this option will just hit you on reaction with frames when you drop below the up+b sweetspot range.
Also, I'm curious, which characters do you think have worse recoveries than Sheik? I wouldn't say that Marth and Ice Climbers (not counting SPopo) are two of them, personally.
stabbedbyanipple
Smash Master
can you guys make an experimental marth build where he can hold the charge on his neutral b like DK/samus/sheik?
cannedbread
Smash Lord
can they? probably
will they? probably not
will they? probably not
This struck me as odd, are you sure you're talking about puff's upb?
Revven
FrankerZ
Okay guys, we're super sorry for the delay but here's the announcement we had planned to put out this past week: Knockback stacking!
Be sure to read the whole post AND watch the video!
Also, it should be noted our wizard Magus is A okay!
Be sure to read the whole post AND watch the video!
Also, it should be noted our wizard Magus is A okay!
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