Project M Social Thread

[bubbaking]

Amen to that.

 

[B.W.]

That's the only way Smash will be considered a real fighting game.

 

[Stevo]

Are you kidding me? You have obviously never played with a good Link, or you don't play him well yourself.

Link's recovery is incredible in PM. He has insane mix-ups, along with awesome coverage with bombs. His up-b has great vertical range, his hookshot can help him when up-bing isn't safe (which can tether even a occupied ledge now), and a lot of times his up-b can hit slightly above the ledge to help cover him, kind of like Ike's aether when it his slightly above the ledge and protects him. That's not to mention his AGT, which can COMPLETELY mix up his direction of momentum and make him almost impossible to edgeguard, and bomb-jumping (even though TL's is a bit better and a bit more consistent).

well, I have never played brawl, so I will admit that his AGT stuff probably makes his recovery better than I am giving him credit for. I have not played an exceptional link, but can't you just sit near the ledge and shield any projectiles he throws then grab the ledge afterwards? His grapple has low range and is slow to snap to the ledge, and his up-b is easy enough to handle, though it goes pretty far. If he lands on stage, just jump up and hit him? His recovery seems far less amazing than many other characters in PM. Such as most of the pokemon, pit, sonic... Mario even...

I said it was my opinion though, so I could definitely be wrong.

Link easily has one of the best recoveries lol. His bomb jump just isn't consistent so I try not to rely on it.

I still think people should just grab the ledge at the appropriate timing and it would be easier.... but it looks like I am outnumbered here.

I still don't think it is one of the best, though, but I am willing to be proven wrong.

 

[bubbaking]

Everyone should have a Mahvel combo.

#MahvelBaybee

Edit: Stevo, I saw your post before you edited it. You're not outnumbered (not yet, anyway). I also think PM Link's recovery is not that good right now, and it's definitely nowhere near its Melee incarnation.

Toon Link was given a shorter, stronger UpB like Smash 64 Link for several reasons. He's otherwise a faster, weaker, campier Link who can live longer. Giving him a potential kill move to combo into gives him more of a purpose to approach and combo, gives him a risky option of killing people off stage, and significantly cuts the duration of his matches down.

So then what was done about Jigglypuff?

Folks, please don't expect any updates/announcements for a few more days. Keep in mind most of the PMBR are in the midwest/east coast (including our very own wizard Magus!) and thus some are likely to have no power.

Just thought I would let people know, I stress that announcements/updates will go up when they're ready and right now, what was planned has been delayed. Sorry.

Hmmm, sounds like this Sandy came about at a convenient enough time to be made a scapegoat. Crafty...

 

[DMG]

I don't care much for Link's recovery, but that's due to gay edge guarding from Marth Falcon Fox etc. Not really his fault that bomb jumping might get him knee'd.

 

[bubbaking]

Are you kidding me? You have obviously never played with a good Link, or you don't play him well yourself.

Link's recovery is incredible in PM. He has insane mix-ups, along with awesome coverage with bombs. His up-b has great vertical range, his hookshot can help him when up-bing isn't safe (which can tether even a occupied ledge now), and a lot of times his up-b can hit slightly above the ledge to help cover him, kind of like Ike's aether when it his slightly above the ledge and protects him. That's not to mention his AGT, which can COMPLETELY mix up his direction of momentum and make him almost impossible to edgeguard, and bomb-jumping (even though TL's is a bit better and a bit more consistent).

You have obviously never played with a good Link in Melee (or you don't play him well yourself). What Stevo said about Link hit the nail right on the head. Bomb coverage, longer hookshot, hookshot can tether any part of the stage, his upB hits above the ledge, bomb jumping, Melee Link has it all. The only thing he lacked was upB distance. You do know that in Melee, ALL tethers can grab occupied ledges, right? If they didn't bring that back for P:M, then it wouldn't be Melee's spiritual sequel, so I don't think that's a feature that one could list as an amazing buff to Link's recovery.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

You do know that in Melee, ALL tethers can grab occupied ledges, right? If they didn't bring that back for P:M, then it wouldn't be Melee's spiritual sequel

Is that really the deciding factor for the spiritual successor of Melee? The game just could not feel right without it?

I would really rather Ivysaur not have an Up-B that grabs the ledge regardless of whether or not someone is on it. Does that count?

 

[Hylian]

I would say PM Link is a lot better at avoiding gimps while recovering than Melee Link is and that alone makes his recovery better. They can both recover from pretty much any point on the stage, distance doesn't matter when comparing them(though PM link can get to the ledge from any point MUCH faster than Melee link can). The fact that PM Link can change his momentum instantly in the air in any direction to avoid people trying to gimp him makes his recovery insane.

 

[Stevo]

I would say PM Link is a lot better at avoiding gimps while recovering than Melee Link is and that alone makes his recovery better. They can both recover from pretty much any point on the stage, distance doesn't matter when comparing them(though PM link can get to the ledge from any point MUCH faster than Melee link can). The fact that PM Link can change his momentum instantly in the air in any direction to avoid people trying to gimp him makes his recovery insane.

AGT does sound pretty good for recovering. Perhaps I was looking at PM link's recovery too much from a melee perspective.

Since I would say you are probably one of the best PM link players right now, I guess I should take your word for it.

 

[JCaesar]

http://www.twitch.tv/jcaesar going up in a few minutes. Probably no announcements tonight, but tune in to see the true Caesar unleashed.

Caution: there will be large helmets involved.

 

[JediKnightTemplar]

I think everything should be jump-cancelable.

Even jumps.

I think I should be able to cancel canceling my cancels that way I have the same end result but the game allows a redundant option that requires three times the tech skill.

 

[bubbaking]

Is that really the deciding factor for the spiritual successor of Melee? The game just could not feel right without it?

I would really rather Ivysaur not have an Up-B that grabs the ledge regardless of whether or not someone is on it. Does that count?

UpB tethers don't exist in Melee and are new to vBrawl and P:M, so no, they don't count. Besides, that's not the point I was trying to make it. There are many traits that a "spiritual successor of Melee" should have; a tether that can grab an occupied ledge is simply one of them. It's the same as ledgeroll edgehogs. It's not the ONLY thing that defines P:M as a true successor to Melee, but it's one of the several required traits for P:M to have to truly feel like Melee+.

My point in my earlier post was that Tmacc's comment that P:M Link's tether can now grab occupied ledges isn't really relevant in a discussion that compares the two Links' recoveries, because that was a standard thing in Melee.

I would say PM Link is a lot better at avoiding gimps while recovering than Melee Link is and that alone makes his recovery better. They can both recover from pretty much any point on the stage, distance doesn't matter when comparing them(though PM link can get to the ledge from any point MUCH faster than Melee link can). The fact that PM Link can change his momentum instantly in the air in any direction to avoid people trying to gimp him makes his recovery insane.

I guess I can roll with that. P:M Link is a bit better at avoiding gimps, it seems like.

Since I would say you are probably one of the best PM link players right now, I guess I should take your word for it.

That's like saying M2K is right every time he claims that a new character goes even with vBrawl MK. We're allowed to dispute the opinion of the best.

 

[Hylian]

That's like saying M2K is right every time he claims that a new character goes even with vBrawl MK. We're allowed to dispute the opinion of the best.

Lol this is true, but I did give reasoning and didn't just arrogantly be like I AM TEH BEST LINK HEAR ME...wait Link doesn't talk uh...HEAR ME SCRAA!

Seriously though it's dumb when top players say something is right and use their skill to justify it rather than just explaining why they think it's right lol.

 

[Stevo]

that's why everybody respects players like KirbyKaze and Dr. PP, because they actually explain things.

 

[DMG]

I appreciate the amount of "Warrior" Kage brings to the table with his talks.

 

[Shadic]

Lol this is true, but I did give reasoning and didn't just arrogantly be like I AM TEH BEST LINK HEAR ME...wait Link doesn't talk uh...HEAR ME SCRAA!

If you actually played Link, you'd know "Skraa" had a 'k' in it, not a c.

Faker.

 

[Stevo]

yes, I enjoy Kage posts as well.

Also, I would like to concede a point to GNeko, and maybe a few others. PMario fireballs are not useless. They are not as good as pills, but I had basically written them off a few weeks ago. I would like to say that they are actually somewhat useful. Though, like I said, they are mostly only useful when recovering, they DO have a bit of on stage use.

 

[bubbaking]

seriously though it's dumb when top players say something is right and use their skill to justify it rather than just explaining why they think it's right lol.

A+++++++++++++++++++

#YouCan'tJustWinTournamentsAndClaimToKnowItAll

 

[Yung Mei]

is anyone going to stream today? my friends and i were thinking of streaming, but if anyones going to stream 2.5, we prolly wont.

 

[standardtoaster]

Jcaesar is already streaming. http://www.twitch.tv/jcaesar

 

[Yung Mei]

just saw his post too l0l, maybe another time then, chekkin that **** out now

 

[bubbaking]

i appreciate the amount of "warrior" kage brings to the table with his talks.

10/10/10...

Also, I would like to concede a point to GNeko, and maybe a few others. PMario fireballs are not useless. They are not as good as pills, but I had basically written them off a few weeks ago. I would like to say that they are actually somewhat useful. Though, like I said, they are mostly only useful when recovering, they DO have a bit of on stage use.

Even Melee fireballs aren't useless, though. Now with the new trajectories, fireball > WL is a very good retreat/approach.

 

[Life]

Twitch suddenly started working again for me. But only when the chat window doesn't load... that's bizzarre.

 

[Tmacc]

You have obviously never played with a good Link in Melee (or you don't play him well yourself). What Stevo said about Link hit the nail right on the head. Bomb coverage, longer hookshot, hookshot can tether any part of the stage, his upB hits above the ledge, bomb jumping, Melee Link has it all. The only thing he lacked was upB distance. You do know that in Melee, ALL tethers can grab occupied ledges, right? If they didn't bring that back for P:M, then it wouldn't be Melee's spiritual sequel, so I don't think that's a feature that one could list as an amazing buff to Link's recovery.

I wasn't a competitive Melee player, I was a Brawl player...so I wasn't completely aware of all of Link's Melee tricks.

Either way, my point was simply that Link's recovery in PM is very, very good, and his mix-ups (aforementioned) alone make him incredible at getting back safely. The biggest thing is the amazing addition of a relevant AGT (I don't feel the videos you linked from Melee Link's AGT were anything worthy of note to his recovery).
Point: his recovery is absolutely fine in PM. lol

 

[bubbaking]

Yeah, that P:M AGT is a really nice addition. However, I think everyone else was talking more about the shortcomings of TL's recovery, or at least one part of it. Couldn't they have given TL a farther reaching upB with a strong, killing initial hit. This would have differentiated it greatly from Link's upB.

 

[Xebenkeck]

Why does everybody want everyone to have good recoveries?

Just curious becuase I know one of the bigger complaints about Brawl was that everyone could recover without much problem, gimping someone wasnt really prevelent in Brawl(unless it was like Oli, Ivy, Link or Ganon, 4/39 not good)

Where melee gimping someone is a big factor, and is the main thing that can turn a match around. Yet we seem to want really good recoveries? Does not compute in my mind.

 

[bubbaking]

Having good recoveries all around and having a good centralized gimping game are two totally different concepts, imho. In vBrawl, everyone has a great recovery but there is no gimping base, so it's like everyone's recovery is simply TOO good. It's like when the temperature is 50 degrees F, but the wind picks up so it feels like it's actually 40. It's the wind's fault, but it makes you think that the temperature is lower than it actually is. In that same respect vBrawl's horrible gimping base made it seem like recoveries were simply too strong in that game.

Also, about TL, I think that it's simply just that most of us who played Melee remembered YL's recovery and we expected TL's recovery to be similar, if not the same. Many of us don't like the fact that TL has to hurt himself just to gain some vertical height. It brings back bad Pichu memories... Tbh, I wouldn't have minded if TL had kept his vBrawl recovery (and you know why from the first paragraph of this post). With Melee ledge mechanics, Melee gravity, and a stronger gimping game, it wouldn't have been a problem.

 

[GP&B]

I would say to avoid absolutely abysmal recoveries like Melee Luigi where batting him away from the ledge is a brainless edgeguard. Doc's was also pretty awful just because of how little his specials helped him unlike Mario.

 

[bubbaking]

Doc's recovery wasn't TOO bad. Eh, actually it was. I mean, one cape and a tornado did help quite a bit, it's just that Mario's specials helped way more. Also, I believe Mario's fireballs were a bit better at protecting the ledge. Luigi's recovery also wasn't garbage as long as you saved your jump until you were below the ledge to DJ and clear the opponent off of it. If you made sure to tornado once onstage before you got sent out, then you were allowed to 'nado offstage, so you had a little bit of stalling capability.

The characters with really abysmal recoveries were Ness and Roy.

 

[B.W.]

I could probably find it, but there's a Melee recovery tier list somewhere and I believe Doc's recovery is the worst in the terms of how much distance it can gain. Doc's cape doesn't gain him any height, instead it just stops all his momentum in any direction, and his Super Jump Punch also doesn't go anywhere.

 

[BJN39]

Ness, yes. But Roy's? How was it different from Marth's? I forget but can't he do just as much as Marth?

 

[B.W.]

Roy falls faster than Marth, and his Up-B goes a shorter distance I think.

Found the Melee recovery tier list I as thinking about. The list is based on distance and versatility. It hasn't really been disputed since 2007, but I do agree with this tier list.

Spoiler

Top Tier
--1. Jigglypuff
--2. Mewtwo
--3. Samus

Upper Tier
--4. Peach
--5. Pichu
--6. Pikachu

High Tier
--7. Ice Climbers
--8. Kirby
--9. Fox
--10. Link

Middle Tier
--11. Sheik
--12. Young Link
--13. Zelda
--14. Ganon
--15. Yoshi

Low Tier
--16. Marth
--17. Ness
--18. Donkey Kong
--19. Game and Watch
--20. Luigi
--21. Bowser

Bottom Tier
--22. Mario
--23. Falco
--24. Captain Falcon
--25. Doctor Mario
--26. Roy

 

[bubbaking]

Roy's upB covers more horizontal distance, but much less vertical, which is bad 'cause he falls like a rock. His falling speed also counteracts his sideB stalls really badly.

Edit: Roy is one of those chars who can actually die from a wall tech jump on the side of the stage if he doesn't expect the tech so he can upB right away. He can also die from countering an attack at the ledge. He just falls way too fast.

 

[B.W.]

My previous post is updated with the recovery tier list for Melee for those interested.

 

[bubbaking]

I always knew Roy was at the bottom. I'm surprised at how high Ness's recovery is, though. How the heck is Samus's recovery below Mewtwo's? I can understand Peach being below him, but Samus?

 

[B.W.]

I think Mewtwo and Samus are very very close. I wouldn't be surprised if they were both tied for 2/3 to be honest, but for the sake of the tier list he kept them 2 and 3.

Also I was surprised at Ness too but when I think about the people who are underneath him, I have to agree. Ness can choose the direction he wants to go, while everyone below him is kind of committed to a single path.

 

[UltiMario]

Mewtwo's Double Jump is huge and Teleport travels stupid distances while being completely safe.

Watch some Taj videos if you need to be reassured of that slot.

 

[bubbaking]

But DK can decide to muscle his way to the ledge or he can recover high and benefit from a lagless landing.

 

[UltiMario]

Also why the **** is Mario below Bowser.

I understand when Bowser actually manages to recover its safer but really Mario's recovery is actually passable. Also whats with Sheik's recovery being higher than Zelda's? Don't sheik mains actually ****ing switch to Zelda sometimes so they can recover farther?

 

[bubbaking]

As a Samus main, I'll agree that they might be close, but I'll never agree that Mewtwo's is that much better than Samus's. Samus gets to stall foreeeeveeeer. She can attack while stalling too. The bomb jumps also give Samus incredible aerial mobility (way better than Jiggs). She can grapple the stage, hitting the opponent while doing it. Speaking of tethering, don't forget all of Samus's tether specific recovery techniques. Samus can Rising Grapple Cancel (AD up + tether to send Samus into a tumble state upwards that she can immediately cancel with an attack, like a missile) and she can Instant Rising Grapple Cancel (same thing, but right next to the stage so she goes flying upwards and has NO landing lag). She can also just AD and tether thin air to preserve the momentum of the AD. If she does an AD up + a tether that grabs nothing, she can gain very impressive height without upBing or tethering the stage while getting the protective hitbox of the grapple (can be used to taze someone standing at the ledge while rising to land on the stage).

Edit: Oh, and Samus has the BEST wall jump in Melee.

I have personally recovered in several situations where people were very certain that I was assuredly dead. I was in the bottom blastzone of FD, bomb jumping. DJ > tether bottom of FD > upB to ledge. In a similar situation, Mewtwo would have been edgehogged.