`dazrin
Smash Champion
Toon Link's recovery is absolutely fine. It's actually better than Links and Melee Young Link's if you ask me.
Slide-B's purpose is to set up for gimps, mainly.
Slide-B's purpose is to set up for gimps, mainly.
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Project M Social Thread
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B.W.
Smash Champion
It's better than Melee Young Link's recovery, for sure, but you a crazy if you think it's better than P:M Link's.
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`dazrin
Smash Champion
Y'all just gotta play a bit more Toon Link 
B.W.
Smash Champion
Seen it. Fancy. But not very practical in a situation where your opponent is active.
In the event Link or T.Link gets hit after AGTing to recover, Link has the better chance of making it back to the stage with his longer hookshot and his up-B going higher.
In the event Link or T.Link gets hit after AGTing to recover, Link has the better chance of making it back to the stage with his longer hookshot and his up-B going higher.
Yung Mei
Where all da hot anime moms at
- Joined
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speaking of toon link/link, how come whenever i try to bomb jump, the goddamn bombs always ALWAYS ALWAYS get sent away from me instead of blowing up ;_;
i hit it in all areas of the up b, **** never blows up on me ;_;
i hit it in all areas of the up b, **** never blows up on me ;_;
`dazrin
Smash Champion
Toon Link's bombjump is a bit more reliable from what I've seen. And AGT recovery is more than practical-- I do it every match I play.
Anyways, I'm not going to argue with you if you think Toon Link's recovery is bad. I've exclusively only used Toon Link in every tournament I've entered and I think it's more than fine. If you don't think so, then I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree.
I personally think an extra "jump" (boost of momentum) in any direction whenever you want (along with a projectile to cover you), a gigantic and disjointed killing hitbox, an auto-sweetspot tether with some pretty decent range, a walljump, and a technique that allows you to double your up-b's height makes for a character with a recovery that is nothing to scoff at.
I guess that's just me, though.
@calvo: Try following this video
Anyways, I'm not going to argue with you if you think Toon Link's recovery is bad. I've exclusively only used Toon Link in every tournament I've entered and I think it's more than fine. If you don't think so, then I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree.
I personally think an extra "jump" (boost of momentum) in any direction whenever you want (along with a projectile to cover you), a gigantic and disjointed killing hitbox, an auto-sweetspot tether with some pretty decent range, a walljump, and a technique that allows you to double your up-b's height makes for a character with a recovery that is nothing to scoff at.
I guess that's just me, though.
@calvo: Try following this video
I only mean the Upb part. His actual Upb feels poo.
I agree that TL's recovery is perfectly fine. His bombjump and zair and up b give him more than enough mix ups/room to recover.
What actually NEEDS to be touched on TL is his boomerage. Compared to Link's, the giant yellow boomerang is ****. It's slower, doesn't have the same "knock-up" ability for comboing, and I feel like I don't have nearly as much control over it as Link does with his. If you gave TL a Link-esque boomerang, with TL's already great speed and maneuvering, I think he would be almost exactly where he needs to be.
I play TL quite often, and play with a good Link often, so I think I have pretty good knowledge of this subject.
What actually NEEDS to be touched on TL is his boomerage. Compared to Link's, the giant yellow boomerang is ****. It's slower, doesn't have the same "knock-up" ability for comboing, and I feel like I don't have nearly as much control over it as Link does with his. If you gave TL a Link-esque boomerang, with TL's already great speed and maneuvering, I think he would be almost exactly where he needs to be.
I play TL quite often, and play with a good Link often, so I think I have pretty good knowledge of this subject.
It's funny that you mention that, because this has actually been tried before. Pre-Demo v2.0, Bowser had a rather sizable fireball that traveled across the screen, and even did crazy things like bounced off the stage. Even disregarding the fact that it had transcendent priority, did a good chunk of damage (I believe 20%), and stayed out for quite some time, the fact that Bowser could control space the way that he did combined with his already insane power made him an absolute nightmare to fight against, and after some time, it was axed, and Fire Breath was tweaked to be much like how it functions now.
#themoreyouknow
DrinkingFood
Smash Hero
>because you can look at one aspect of one move of one character and justify a change
Clearly, jigglypuff's up-b needs to give her some height. I'm just talking about its use as a recovery move though, don't bring up anything else.
Sometimes I wished they had buffed bowser in ways other than just making him giant with huge range/power/armor. It's nice when you first start playing him (makes you feel extremely powerful, especially that forward smash and fair), but kills that require no more than a few hits get boring after a while. I'd rather have him be a little more mobile (not by much, he still needs to be a slow lumbering brute, maybe less so), a little less dedicated to his attacks (same as before), and have a little less stage control and a little more technical difficulty. The fireball would have been a good start, nair hitting on frame 4 or 5, a longer, speedier DD, a 6 frame jump-startup, and some other things. I'd have a jump-cancelable u-smash akin to lucario's (although not on-hit only) since his usmash startup looks just like his jump-startup, and would provide options such as following a hit opponent into the air and chasing downed opponents with the threat of either the grounded spike hitbox knocking them into the air, or having bowser coming down at them from the air, but that's just me.
But oh well. Bowser is still his best ever. No amount of whining or complaining otherwise on my part will change PMBR's mind anyways.
I even had this idea that he could roll over backwards in addition to rolling back forwards normally as an option out of bair's landing lag to help reduce his helplessness, but that would look lulzy
It's an awkward move lol. N64 Link style with more Height and less Praying
But of course we can't talk about it since the Jigglypuff example is clearly just like this and I'm being ridiculous. All your Bowser changes are fantastic, I say 1-2 things about Upb and I'm being silly. YOU CAN'T DRINK MUFFINS SILLY BOI!
But of course we can't talk about it since the Jigglypuff example is clearly just like this and I'm being ridiculous. All your Bowser changes are fantastic, I say 1-2 things about Upb and I'm being silly. YOU CAN'T DRINK MUFFINS SILLY BOI!
DrinkingFood
Smash Hero
Doesn't change the fact that you were doing just what I said: Looking at exactly one aspect of one move of one character in isolation and claiming that it needs to be changed rather than taking into account the rest of what the character can do to compensate.
Well I was more curious about why it wasn't similar to Link/Young Link and more like N64 Link. If you are looking at the totality of his recovery, sure it's really not that bad. The amount of options he can have is pretty good. He has all of that though regardless of his Upb, which is why it felt pointless to talk about tethering wall jumping etc when that's not related to his Upb and my questions about that move. I'm curious if they gave him that Upb to make it purposefully different than Link/YL, if they kept it that way so you can use it in combos/in the air, etc. I do think Link's Upb for recovery is better than TL's, not by a fatal amount, but yes I'm curious lol.
DrinkingFood
Smash Hero
Why was it one way instead of the other?
idk
If it had been that way, would you have been asking the same question in reverse- why hadn't it been made shorter, but a powerful KO move?
idk
If it had been that way, would you have been asking the same question in reverse- why hadn't it been made shorter, but a powerful KO move?
Because the bottom of most stages are as large as Fountain of Dreams, right? :/
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
Oh **** I almost missed out on this conversation. This must be how carol feels whenever he misses an Ike.
Taking 12% to recover is extremely "legit."
Taking 12% to recover is extremely "legit."
Shadic
Alakadoof?
Toon Link was given a shorter, stronger UpB like Smash 64 Link for several reasons. He's otherwise a faster, weaker, campier Link who can live longer. Giving him a potential kill move to combo into gives him more of a purpose to approach and combo, gives him a risky option of killing people off stage, and significantly cuts the duration of his matches down.
Also, it matches his grounded UpB to differentiate the move further from Link's. Link's ground UpB cannot be charged, cannot move, is a strong semi-spiking single-hit move. His aerial UpB goes fairly high, and multihits. Toon Link's UpB can charge, you can move with it, the last hit pops the opponent up, but isn't really a kill move. His aerial UpB doesn't go very high, but it's a fairly powerful single-hit move.
Stevo
Smash Champion
because that was the point of the post, right?
It is just a demonstration of what Toon Link can do.
Revven
FrankerZ
Folks, please don't expect any updates/announcements for a few more days. Keep in mind most of the PMBR are in the midwest/east coast (including our very own wizard Magus!) and thus some are likely to have no power.
Just thought I would let people know, I stress that announcements/updates will go up when they're ready and right now, what was planned has been delayed. Sorry.
Just thought I would let people know, I stress that announcements/updates will go up when they're ready and right now, what was planned has been delayed. Sorry.
That certainly doesn't match the post he quoted, though. Being able to do that in an incredibly situational position doesn't mean that his recovery comes close to matching Link's.
B.W.
Smash Champion
Honestly if Toon Link's up-B went just a little higher I'd probably use him. Or if he fell a little slower so that when I dropped down, without fast falling, on a stage without a wall I'd be able to drop down with a n-air to gimp my opponent. Doing so now can easily result in me killing myself.
Another way to justify the up-B being so short is to make it a better kill move. Toon Link as he is right now is a pretty crap killer.
Another way to justify the up-B being so short is to make it a better kill move. Toon Link as he is right now is a pretty crap killer.
Stevo
Smash Champion
hmm, well, perhaps not, but I don't think PM Link's recovery is THAT good regardless. If his hookshot was actually longer than his sword and/or there was melee tethering, then it would be much better I think.That certainly doesn't match the post he quoted, though. Being able to do that in an incredibly situational position doesn't mean that his recovery comes close to matching Link's.
Are you kidding me? You have obviously never played with a good Link, or you don't play him well yourself.
Link's recovery is incredible in PM. He has insane mix-ups, along with awesome coverage with bombs. His up-b has great vertical range, his hookshot can help him when up-bing isn't safe (which can tether even a occupied ledge now), and a lot of times his up-b can hit slightly above the ledge to help cover him, kind of like Ike's aether when it his slightly above the ledge and protects him. That's not to mention his AGT, which can COMPLETELY mix up his direction of momentum and make him almost impossible to edgeguard, and bomb-jumping (even though TL's is a bit better and a bit more consistent).
Toon Link's recovery is fine to, for my previously-mentioned reasons. I also forgot to mention his up-b has pretty insane range on its hit-box. Typically when I recover with him, I aim to go low, agt up and then up-b slightly over the ledge. The range on his up-b hit-box horizontally allows him to cover himself, and is pretty hard to punish because most people don't understand it's range.
bubbaking
Smash Hero
Ummm, AGT's exist in Melee too and YL can WJ and bomb jump in that game as well. I don't exactly see how TL's recovery is better than YL's... :/
B.W.
Smash Champion
You rarely need to do an actual bomb jump with Link (AGT into exploding your face). Using the AGT to gain a kind of triple jump though is very helpful.
Also, I would like to be more clear on something. I don't think T.Link's horizontal recovery is an issue. His horizontal recovery is great with AGT Hopping, as I like to call it, as a way to separate it from AGT Bomb-Jumping (better known as just Bomb-Jumping). But bomb-jumping being a requirement to gain vertical distance hurts T.Link when he's knocked just off the stage because it's not hard to stop him from hitting the bomb with his up-B. Because of this, T.Link can't really gimp people below him with his n-air or f-air. Even when he doesn't fast fall he'll drop too far and the only way up is to bomb-jump and that kind of sucks since if you miss your gimp or it just plain old doesn't work, he's way too easy to just countergimp. Just my opinion.
Also, I would like to be more clear on something. I don't think T.Link's horizontal recovery is an issue. His horizontal recovery is great with AGT Hopping, as I like to call it, as a way to separate it from AGT Bomb-Jumping (better known as just Bomb-Jumping). But bomb-jumping being a requirement to gain vertical distance hurts T.Link when he's knocked just off the stage because it's not hard to stop him from hitting the bomb with his up-B. Because of this, T.Link can't really gimp people below him with his n-air or f-air. Even when he doesn't fast fall he'll drop too far and the only way up is to bomb-jump and that kind of sucks since if you miss your gimp or it just plain old doesn't work, he's way too easy to just countergimp. Just my opinion.
bubbaking
Smash Hero
YL also seemed to have a much better ledge sweetspot distance, and of course, he could tether any part of the stage's side to recover as well. It's also much easier for YL to let go of ledge > DJ and pull bomp > upB back to ledge, so his ledge game was much better, too.
B.W.
Smash Champion
Since when do AGT's exist in Melee? I've never seen this once. Also, Y.Link cannot bomb jump easily/reliably. You have to be very, very precise and many people cannot do it. It also seems to fail often when it is done correctly since the bomb doesn't receive enough damage to explode.
Y.Link did have better sweetspot distance, and his ledge game was better thanks to his better vertical recovery. Y.Link had great vertical recovery, but he had crap horizontal recovery.
T.Link is the opposite.
GP&B
Ike 'n' Ike
I believe you can perform the input of AGT-ing, but there's no momentum effect. So yeah, don't know what you're talking about bubba.
TL's bomb jump is also incredibly reliable. I can do it very consistently.
TL's bomb jump is also incredibly reliable. I can do it very consistently.
bubbaking
Smash Hero
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6JGpiiMqKM
I've done it myself after a friend showed it to me. I think it was discovered after Brawl came out, which is kinda funny.
That was what being able to tether any part of the stage was for. I never had any problem with his recovery in any direction.
bubbaking
Smash Hero
You still get a small hop with the Melee AGT, it's just not as large as P:M's.
GP&B
Ike 'n' Ike
Link floats a bit more so the timing is a little more lenient. TL can do it much longer because his Up B has a fairly strong hitbox that takes a while to stale before it can't kill the bomb.
EDIT: Point made then. As you said though, it's not nearly as strong.
EDIT: Point made then. As you said though, it's not nearly as strong.
bubbaking
Smash Hero
More Melee AGT's:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzCzjb9H2PA
Comes with a how-to, and shows Connor performing it with multiple characters. There is indeed a small change in momentum.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzCzjb9H2PA
Comes with a how-to, and shows Connor performing it with multiple characters. There is indeed a small change in momentum.
B.W.
Smash Champion
If you're referring to one of my posts, I stated Young Link's bomb jump wasn't reliable.
Toon Link's is reliable, so long as you're not too close to the stage when you do it.
That AGT goes no where, and would in no way help with recovery. Find me proof that I'm wrong, and that it would help with recovery and I'll take it back, but from what this video shows this technique is not useful offstage.
You can recover any direction with Y.Link if you are close enough to the stage. The direction isn't the problem, it's the distance, and overall Young Link is very bad at recovering horizontally from far away. (He tends to just miss the stage a lot of the time though.)
bubbaking
Smash Hero
.....what?
So, dear sir, when would this usmash be cancellable if not only on hit? ALL THE TIME? Sounds like the start of something broken...I did like your bair idea, though.
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