Project M Social Thread

[B.W.]

Nope. Actually the recovery thread explained that quite nicely, and many Sheiks only switch to Zelda if that is the only way to make it back from very far away.

After Zelda teleports she has a lot of lag coming out of the teleport, and the landing lag is apparently bad enough that it's considered more risky to use.

Also DK doesn't go as far, and gains very very little vertical height. And for Mario and Bowser, Bowser can make it back easier than Mario can in Melee. Mario's goes farther, but it's highly predictable and easy to hit him out of, and once he's hit he's dead. Same goes for Bowser, but Bowser's up-B will truck through things better than the rest of Mario's recovery.

As a Samus main, I'll agree that they might be close, but I'll never agree that Mewtwo's is that much better than Samus's. Samus gets to stall foreeeeveeeer. She can attack while stalling too. The bomb jumps also give Samus incredible aerial mobility (way better than Jiggs). She can grapple the stage, hitting the opponent while doing it. Speaking of tethering, don't forget all of Samus's tether specific recovery techniques. Samus can Rising Grapple Cancel (AD up + tether to send Samus into a tumble state upwards that she can immediately cancel with an attack, like a missile) and she can Instant Rising Grapple Cancel (same thing, but right next to the stage so she goes flying upwards and has NO landing lag). She can also just AD and tether thin air to preserve the momentum of the AD. If she does an AD up + a tether that grabs nothing, she can gain very impressive height without upBing or tethering the stage while getting the protective hitbox of the grapple (can be used to taze someone standing at the ledge while rising to land on the stage).

Edit: Oh, and Samus has the BEST wall jump in Melee.

Don't forget, the list was made in 2007. I'm not against you on this, I agree that Samus' recovery is probably better than Mewtwo's. But for this list I really don't think 2 and 3 are considered far apart. Rather I think they're probably right next to each other, touching shoulders.

 

[bubbaking]

Don't forget, the list was made in 2007. I'm not against you on this, I agree that Samus' recovery is probably better than Mewtwo's. But for this list I really don't think 2 and 3 are considered far apart. Rather I think they're probably right next to each other, touching shoulders.

Alright, I can accept that. I just get easily riled up about things concerning Samus.....

 

[9Kplus1]

Alright, I can accept that. I just get easily riled up about things concerning Samus.....

Yeah, you and the 633682817 Samus "mains".

 

[UltiMario]

It's much more difficult in Melee but Mario has the option of Up-B walljump for meaningful stages that have walls, which is like half of them.

There really isn't a damn excuse Mario should be that low.

Edit: go to bed 9k

 

[B.W.]

Mario's Up-B walljump in Melee wasn't really viable like it is in P:M (I actually think it's too strong in P:M).

In order to do it you have to be hugging the wall for like 90% of Mario's Up-B, and Mario doesn't often make it that far with one tornado, two capes and a double-jump unless it's on Yoshi's Story.

It's not really an excuse at all, Mario's recovery sucks in Melee.

 

[bubbaking]

Yeah, you and the 633682817 Samus "mains".

I don't know who these other guys are, but there actually aren't that many of us. I think there may only be three of us in all of LI. I don't count all those blokes who 'secondary' Samus. I'm a true-and-blue Samus main with a Sheik secondary (no lie).

 

[B.W.]

I just hope Samus is in 2.5.

She's one of the four I predict, honestly, and my step brother would be quite happy to have his main back.

 

[DrinkingFood]

I, too, know several people that would be happy to have samus back.

 

[Jolteon]

Why does everybody want everyone to have good recoveries?

Just curious becuase I know one of the bigger complaints about Brawl was that everyone could recover without much problem, gimping someone wasnt really prevelent in Brawl(unless it was like Oli, Ivy, Link or Ganon, 4/39 not good)

Where melee gimping someone is a big factor, and is the main thing that can turn a match around. Yet we seem to want really good recoveries? Does not compute in my mind.

Fox+Falco have good recoveries and can be gimped. You can have good off-stage options to deal with good recoveries, Brawl just lacks that.

 

[ph00tbag]

I always knew Roy was at the bottom. I'm surprised at how high Ness's recovery is, though. How the heck is Samus's recovery below Mewtwo's? I can understand Peach being below him, but Samus?

Mewtwo has much, much more vertical distance, better overall air control, stalling methods of his own, and more options once he gets into range of the ledge. Not to mention he has less lag out of his upb if he can't sweetspot.

He does have a harder time protecting himself because he doesn't really have exceptional forward hitboxes, and he doesn't get full height from his DJ if he uses an aerial until a rather predictable point in the jump animation.

 

[metroid1117]

Roy falls faster than Marth, and his Up-B goes a shorter distance I think.

Found the Melee recovery tier list I as thinking about. The list is based on distance and versatility. It hasn't really been disputed since 2007, but I do agree with this tier list.

Spoiler

Top Tier
--1. Jigglypuff
--2. Mewtwo
--3. Samus

Upper Tier
--4. Peach
--5. Pichu
--6. Pikachu

High Tier
--7. Ice Climbers
--8. Kirby
--9. Fox
--10. Link

Middle Tier
--11. Sheik
--12. Young Link
--13. Zelda
--14. Ganon
--15. Yoshi

Low Tier
--16. Marth
--17. Ness
--18. Donkey Kong
--19. Game and Watch
--20. Luigi
--21. Bowser

Bottom Tier
--22. Mario
--23. Falco
--24. Captain Falcon
--25. Doctor Mario
--26. Roy

I don't think this list is indicative of Melee's current meta-game. Falco's recovery is way too good to be the 4th-worst recovery in the game >.>.

 

[StarshipGroove]

Recovering in Melee is an exercise of futility for 3\4 of the characters, nearly the entire cast gets beaten by invincible bair and most of them are forced to grab the ledge because of mega landing lag. Falco's recovery is considered good. MIDDLE\HIGH TIER. and that's more of a testament to how useless most character's recoveries are in Melee, than Falco being decent at getting back on stage.

Furthermore decent recovery options do not make the game slower. There were good recoveries in Melee too, it's nothing new.

 

[Wobbles]

Squirtle is really hard to try and control so I feel like he'll be pretty high skill cap. Lacks a lot of magical force-field hitboxes so aiming with him actually involves precision... except with Up-smash. Up-smash hits everything.

And repeat wall-jumps without having to use double jumps is goofy too.

 

[B.W.]

I don't think this list is indicative of Melee's current meta-game. Falco's recovery is way too good to be the 4th-worst recovery in the game >.>.

I think it's pretty accurate to Melee's current meta-game. Recoveries don't really change much overtime in the sense of distance, versatility and safety.

Falco's recovery is good when he's close enough to recover, but you also have to factor in distance gained vertically and horizontally while also factoring in how much of a comeback factor the recovery has after it's been hit. If Falco gets hit while he's in the charge-up portion of his recovery, he's pretty much dead. Same could be said for everyone in the Middle Tier of the list and lower, while others have a much better chance of returning, even after a gimp attempt.

 

[Jolteon]

I don't think the list is that accurate, there's no reason why such a versatile recovery should be ranked below Ness and Luigi.

 

[Strong Badam]

People that think Falco has a bad recovery are the kind of people that will never realize what makes characters good in the first place.

 

[B.W.]

I don't think the list is that accurate, there's no reason why such a versatile recovery should be ranked below Ness and Luigi.

I can give you that. It's definitely not worse than Ness or Luigi. Again the list was made in 2007. Ness and Luigi could be moved down more, and some characters could be shuffled around a bit as well.

If I were to move Falco myself I'd probably put him right below Marth, while also moving around some of the other characters.

In general though, I can see why the list it's in the order it's in. Luigi and Ness can potentially recover from further away, but these days that wouldn't make them better.

 

[Shadow Huan]

i don't wanna search the entire thread so i'll ask here:

is there a problem with collision detection? i am getting "stuck" on platrforms as Boozer a lot.

like he stays in his falling animation on the platform i get knocked down onto or up into, then he hits the ground a second later. during this "stuck" animation i can't jump, tech or move, and it has screwed me a few times.

also why can some moves clank with his less than 100% get up attack? even falco's side B when he's recovering (i have recorded proof of that one) i thought that get up attack has full invincabilty frames lol

 

[DMG]

Bowser may be invincible, but if his hitbox clanks with something it would stop his attack/invincibility wouldn't really matter. If he kept going through no matter what til the move was done, then yes it would always eat moves.

 

[Gimpel]

Invincible attacks can clank and could so in melee iirc
I remember when we were working on sd remix, ripple was testing a build of Bowser where he had a TON of invincibility on grounded upb (from startup until where he stops spinning or something ridiculous like that iirc) and he said you can easily clank with it. I don't know how it works for sure, but isn't clanking caused by two hitboxes colliding ? if the hurtbox of a character is vulnerable at that point shouldn't make a difference.
falco also has his hitbox behind his hurtbox during his side b iirc, which might be why it clanks.

 

[Shadow Huan]

that's what the move does in melee tho

the first thing is more concerning to me, but i would've thought his getup attack would've been the same.

y'know, because melee...


EDIT; go test it in vanilla melee if you don't believe me.

in melee the hitbox clanks but bowser doesn't stop

 

[DMG]

Bowser stopping may be an improvement then because iirc when he kept spinning he lost the hitbox and was vulnerable doing the animation

 

[Shadow Huan]

sorry i wasn't clear what i meant in the first post btw, typing in a rush sucks lol

Bowser wasn't vulnerable until after the move ended in melee since he was still invulnerable, i think he could upB pretty quick after that.

and i wouldn't mind his stopping so much if it didn't consistantly make it so that i was falling off the stage, since he usually keeps his momentum.

anyone know about my first question? i still feel that's more pressing lol

 

[standardtoaster]

i don't wanna search the entire thread so i'll ask here:

is there a problem with collision detection? i am getting "stuck" on platrforms as Boozer a lot.

like he stays in his falling animation on the platform i get knocked down onto or up into, then he hits the ground a second later. during this "stuck" animation i can't jump, tech or move, and it has screwed me a few times.

also why can some moves clank with his less than 100% get up attack? even falco's side B when he's recovering (i have recorded proof of that one) i thought that get up attack has full invincabilty frames lol

What stage is this on? Are you using Demo 2.1?

 

[Shadow Huan]

What stage is this on? Are you using Demo 2.1?

i am using 2.1

it has happened on pictochat, yoshi's island melee, pokemon stadium 1, metal cavern, battlefield, warioware, yoshi's island brawl...

it's hard to think of a stage with platforms it hasn't happened on

saying he "stalls" for a full second might be an exaggeration, but he's stuck long enough for my friend Life (different life from the one who is in this thread lol) to punish me when he sees it happen

i have to go to work now, i'm gonna check back on my break

 

[GaretHax]

I also know a few people who would be very excited if Samus were in 2.5 plus I miss Samus v Ganon, fun matchup imo.

 

[DMG]

???

Since when has THAT been a fun MU?

 

[Ace55]

Since Ganon ***** it.

Sounds fun to me.

 

[drsusredfish]

What do people think about being able to aim your grabs like you aim your tilt attacks? I think this would be a neat feature for ivy since she uses vines for her grab. All it would take is one more animation and sub action to make it so she can grab you off of platforms.

 

[B.W.]

Truth be told, that sounds like it has the potential to be very broken, especially for tether grabs like Ivy or Link.

Though when you grab someone who is on a platform, if they go to high the grab just releases, so grabbing someone on a platform above you wouldn't actually work I don't think.

 

[drsusredfish]

another good idea for wario's new wind up ftilt let him choose not throw the punch. Like press b to stop the punch.

edit: guess i could have said let him cancel his ftilt wind up.

 

[GaretHax]

Since Ganon ***** it.

Sounds fun to me.

this lol, plus it's fun to just mess around and try to weave around projectiles instead of uair or straight up punch them. And the cp game is hilarious. I just really enjoy the spacing required in the matchup I guess.

 

[MaxThunder]

He can also die from countering an attack at the ledge. He just falls way too fast.

marth does that too, though...

But DK can decide to muscle his way to the ledge or he can recover high and benefit from a lagless landing.

if he can land, that is...

 

[Stevo]

dear god that recovery tier list is bad

 

[B.W.]

Wouldn't say bad. Just dated...

Then again, I guess that makes it bad considering we know even more now.

 

[Xebenkeck]

I think that list is pretty accurate for what it is representing, which is distance from which you can recover.


It does not represent however what matters most in recovery, the amount of options you have.

 

[McNinja]

dear god that recovery tier list is bad

Glad somebody else agrees.

What is this list suppost to gage? The overall recovery distance? How many different recovery options the character has? How gimpable the character's recovery is? All of the above?

Peaches recover covers a TON of distance horizontally. More so than Mewtwo! However vertically, Mewtwo takes the cake. So whos is better? Is this list based soley on vertical recovery? Horizontal? both? So many questions.


But yeah. Project M. Pretty fun game. Excited to see what they do with the rest of the cast.

Are a lot of people planning to play Metaknight or Pit? Call me a hipster, but i don't want to be too mainstream.


Edit: All my questions pretty much just got answered by Xebenkeck.

 

[Stevo]

I think that list is pretty accurate for what it is representing, which is distance from which you can recover.

it doesn't even represent that properly, let alone the fact that, like you said, that means very little for how good the recovery is.

 

[Life]

i am using 2.1

it has happened on pictochat, yoshi's island melee, pokemon stadium 1, metal cavern, battlefield, warioware, yoshi's island brawl...

it's hard to think of a stage with platforms it hasn't happened on

saying he "stalls" for a full second might be an exaggeration, but he's stuck long enough for my friend Life (different life from the one who is in this thread lol) to punish me when he sees it happen

i have to go to work now, i'm gonna check back on my break

Aw crap, someone is using this tag? Maaaan. :/



Edit mcninja hardly anyone uses pit

 

[hotdogturtle]

Hey JCaesar, can you post the Aerodactyl-colored Charizard that you had on your stream yesterday? The only ones that I can find on BrawlVault are edited models.