Project M Social Thread

[Vigilante]

This is a demo, after all. Most characters will probably be around Marth status, I guess, which is pretty darn good.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Eli, I'm pretty sure they're aware of this. I really doubt all of PMBR is fully convinced that the cast as it exists is fully balanced....

 

[GHNeko]

High level for what ends? So I can beat randoms in Iowa who think Kirby's down B is a good move? It's been made more than clear enough to me that no one wants to carpool me to any tournament within a mere 14 hours drive, so there is really no point in getting frustrated over one thing for days on end.

Prove otherwise if you really believe otherwise, but not everyone gets to be blessed with living an hour from New York.

So what dude. Seek to better your skill anyway. You should strive to continue improving. Don't let a lack of competition be your killing factor. All this means is that you have more reason to focus on technical skill.

for what purpose? for the day you actually get to go to a tourney. the last thing you want is to drive 5+ hours somewhere, and get bodied because you didn't practice.

if people around you suck, then add your own arbitrary restrictions in order to help improve your game by limiting yourself so you push yourself.

You got this dude.

I'll tell you right now that if you wanna bring characters up to spacies level, G&W has a really long way to go...... as do a lot of other characters.

And this is why we put out demos. for people to playtest and provide feedback so we know how to approach balancing this game.

 

[Kink-Link5]

AGT doesn't seem to get all that much distance at all when I'm canceling it.

Like you saw the video, I'm not using a double jump for the sake of trying to get to the bomb or anything, just to get a higher starting point for the bomb jump, but Toon Link just does like a stop for a frame without doing anything regarding motion at all.

 

[ELI-mination]

Well there's my feedback lol.
Balance is [PENDING]

 

[Vigilante]

DrinkingFood, I see you are from Louisiana. I will call you Gambit from now on.

 

[Gimpel]

hey kink, I can see that you're frustrated that you still can't really bomb jump after practicing for so long patiently but I think you're just too convinced that you're doing it completely right and that it's just hard to do when you're actually making a small mistake that makes it so hard most of the time.
I actually just made a short video to show how I do AGTs but I can't get it edited with windows movie maker for some reason (sound is there but the video is black ): ) and I don't know how to use any other video editing software :C
However you might try rolling your stick up while plucking the bomb during your double jump and just holding it up, then air dodging, waiting just a little longer to throw the bomb than you're doing already and instantly upb after throwing
I just tried it and it seems like the most basic way to do this and to learn the timing.

/e yeah that "Toon Link just does like a stop for a frame without doing anything regarding motion at all." might be either because you're cancelling into item throw too fast or because you're not holding straight up while pressing L/R
hope I can help

 

[Hylian]

Daze youtube won't let me respond for some reason so here:

Lol it's fine but let me clarify some things:

What you showed doesn't really have a specific name afaik aside from turn around B(or reverse b). People say like "turn around laser" or something with falco etc.

B-reversing is changing your momentum by inputting a smash-b the opposite direction your character is facing.

Double B-reversing is cancelling your forward momentum without turning around: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHBulOwIs7g&feature=player_detailpage#t=58s

Also, I doubt most PM players know about double b-reversing and thought that it was just b-reversing from what I've seen lol.

 

[DrinkingFood]

DrinkingFood, I see you are from Louisiana. I will call you Gambit from now on.

I live neither in NAW'leans nor Baton Rouge.


@Hylian
On smashmods we've taken more to calling it Reverse B-reversing as it is more accurate the wavebouncing. Although I kinda like double B-reversing too.

 

[Hylian]

I live neither in NAW'leans nor Baton Rouge.


@Hylian
On smashmods we've taken more to calling it Reverse B-reversing as it is more accurate the wavebouncing. Although I kinda like double B-reversing too.

I haven't used the term wavebounce since 2008 lol I hate that term.

And are you talking about actually double b-reversing or are you talking about b-reversing(neither of which are for example turn around b moves while keeping your momentum)?

I mean..we've already had terms for these moves for 4+ years lol.

 

[GP&B]

So, RBR/DBR is mostly a good tool for halting you in the air then, ie. for spacing? BR definitely has some uses in how you can immediately switch directions. RBR looks like a dash jump pivot that holds you in place.

 

[Kink-Link5]

However you might try rolling your stick up while plucking the bomb during your double jump and just holding it up, then air dodging, waiting just a little longer to throw the bomb than you're doing already and instantly upb after throwing

This is actually the exact input that I'm doing.

xDOWNB, Up, rA, B

lowercaseCAPS meaning a rolled input.

 

[Hylian]

So, RBR/DBR is mostly a good tool for halting you in the air then, ie. for spacing? BR definitely has some uses in how you can immediately switch directions. RBR looks like a dash jump pivot that holds you in place.

You can use it as a mix-up and for spacing, for the most part it isn't very useful in brawl, don't know about this game. B-reversing is very useful though.


Edit: Kink have you tried using the cstick to AGT?

 

[Kink-Link5]

So, RBR/DBR is mostly a good tool for halting you in the air then, ie. for spacing? BR definitely has some uses in how you can immediately switch directions. RBR looks like a dash jump pivot that holds you in place.

RBR is good for like, large-ish moves done by a character with decent aerial speed at the moment.

Charizard's RBR side B and neutral B are both good examples since he has full aerial mobility while doing the moves and can cover a lot of distance back from forward with them.

Edit: Kink have you tried using the cstick to AGT?

C-stick input is when I get the little not-quite movement. The ALMOOSSSST REACHED IT/BARELY REACHED IT is from the rolled input.

 

[Hylian]

I really need to make a video detailing what b-reversing is because I think a lot of people are using the terms incorrectly :/.

 

[DrinkingFood]

I haven't used the term wavebounce since 2008 lol I hate that term.

And are you talking about actually double b-reversing or are you talking about b-reversing(neither of which are for example turn around b moves while keeping your momentum)?

I mean..we've already had terms for these moves for 4+ years lol.

Jesus christ this gets confusing fast... I was saying that we often call Double B-reversing "Reverse B-reversing" on smash mods. That's all.

Also, I hate "wavebouncing" too.

 

[GP&B]

I don't get where wavebouncing came from. It looks more like a frozen pivot. It's like when I heard about CC-ing in Brawl when it's actually hitlag reduction from crouching (correct me if I'm wrong on that one, but IIRC there was a video on it).

 

[DMG]

So much this. I'm tired of people thinking that the only solution to the spacies is to nerf them and not make everyone better. The spacies were good at almost EVERYTHING and amazing and MOST things, but they weren't the BEST at everything. Characters don't necessarily have to have less weaknesses to beat them; they need to have stronger strengths, which is very much possible.

That's sorta true, however you walk a very dangerous line with that. Giving characters "stronger strengths" in order to deal with Spacies would likely lead to scenarios where the other cast members also have a problem with it. The most obvious exception to this would be a strict CG. Say a Marth CG on them. Compare that to Ike's CG, and then how those throws impact the rest of the cast. Ike's Uthrow is worse for the cast despite being tailored in mind to **** Fox Falco. You might get the same result from either character, a 0-death/long combo/edge guard situation on spacies, but one is also more fair to the rest of the cast. Marth Uthrow doesn't lead into a general purpose Nair into SIDE B FAIR HUZZAH etc etc.


You have to hit specific weaknesses of theirs, without having it spill over too much in the general arena. The safest and easiest way to do that is... well a CG lol. You could give everyone an Uthrow CG on them for a good chunk of damage, possibly leading to edge guard threats or hard reads etc. Would be kinda stale, but frankly from a balance perspective it would make total sense because giving a character other tools and making it fine is much harder. Amazing edgeguarding or recovery to deal with them, amazing range or priority, amazing speed or damage from combos, etc. There are not easy aspects to manipulate for characters to deal with spacies without implications kicking in.

 

[`dazrin]

Daze, see my comment on that video?

Yes, and I fixed it with annotations. I'll have some ACTUAL b-reversing and RBR in the next episode

15+ Lab hours just makes this not worth doing at all. Like how much longer should it take? :/

Maybe I'll just use Jigglypuff.

It really doesn't take that long. It took me a solid 2-3 hours to completely master AGTing, and another hour or so to learn super AGTing.

You can use any character you want, but to shy away from a character just because you can't figure out how to AGT upwards and up-b with the correct timing would be very disappointing to hear about. You can watch the stream archive I put in there to see what exactly my hands are doing so you have a better idea of how to do it. stream archive here.

You can do it! It's not very hard Just don't double jump, and rely soley on your AGT. I think your double jump is screwing up the timing. The whole trick is to AGT your momentum upwards at the apex of your jump so you get the maximum amount of height from it.

Don't give up! If you want to be a better player, you have to play the game and learn it. That's what it takes to get good; not constantly vomiting theorysmash on the boards.

Daze youtube won't let me respond for some reason so here:

Lol it's fine but let me clarify some things:

What you showed doesn't really have a specific name afaik aside from turn around B(or reverse b). People say like "turn around laser" or something with falco etc.

B-reversing is changing your momentum by inputting a smash-b the opposite direction your character is facing.

Double B-reversing is cancelling your forward momentum without turning around: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHBulOwIs7g&feature=player_detailpage#t=58s

Also, I doubt most PM players know about double b-reversing and thought that it was just b-reversing from what I've seen lol.

Hey Hylian. Yeah, I realized that and I fixed my video with annotations. I'm sorry about that!

I never came from a brawl background so it was ambiguous to me what each technique was called. I know what ACTUAL b-reversing is, and I've been calling it wavebouncing or something of that sort. It'll be featured in my next video

There's really no need to make a video entailing exactly what it is; I just got confused and messed up. Sorry about that!

 

[DrinkingFood]

That's sorta true, however you walk a very dangerous line with that. Giving characters "stronger strengths" in order to deal with Spacies would likely lead to scenarios where the other cast members also have a problem with it. The most obvious exception to this would be a strict CG. Say a Marth CG on them. Compare that to Ike's CG, and then how those throws impact the rest of the cast. Ike's Uthrow is worse for the cast despite being tailored in mind to **** Fox Falco. You might get the same result from either character, a 0-death/long combo/edge guard situation on spacies, but one is also more fair to the rest of the cast. Marth Uthrow doesn't lead into a general purpose Nair into SIDE B FAIR HUZZAH etc etc.


You have to hit specific weaknesses of theirs, without having it spill over too much in the general arena. The safest and easiest way to do that is... well a CG lol. You could give everyone an Uthrow CG on them for a good chunk of damage, possibly leading to edge guard threats or hard reads etc. Would be kinda stale, but frankly from a balance perspective it would make total sense because giving a character other tools and making it fine is much harder. Amazing edgeguarding or recovery to deal with them, amazing range or priority, amazing speed or damage from combos, etc. There are not easy aspects to manipulate for characters to deal with spacies without implications kicking in.

So you're saying it's more complicated than it seems?
Well GEE, I didn't know THAT.
lol

 

[Hylian]

Haha ok.

I've just seen a lot of people misuse the term.

 

[iLink]

B-reversing is changing your momentum by inputting a smash-b the opposite direction your character is facing.

You can B-reverse the same way you are facing as long as you are moving in the opposite direction. Or is there a different name for that? Like I can be moving backwards while facing forward, and then shift my momentum forward with B or sideB.

 

[`dazrin]

Man. Brawl terms are annoying. Lol

 

[DrinkingFood]

How do I into vbrawl

 

[Rat]

15+ Lab hours...

It's not just about hours practiced. You usually need to sleep before tech skill improves. I tend to do much better the next day after hammering at something new. It has to do with the brain rewiring during sleep.

Also failing a technique can be a problem of finger speed and strength - Which just takes time to build up. Like my right thumb is weaker/slower than the left one cause of so much dash dancing.


Kinda related - I've heard from various music instructors that as you get faster the brain is physically lowering those connects in your head. So the signal has a shorter route or something like that.

 

[GP&B]

DACUS is the only sensical one in that it's acronym of the exact action that occurs. Reverse Aerial Rush just sounds oddly named; it's a Run Turnaround Jump. I can't think of a good name for B-reversals that doesn't also require the initial use of "Pivot" to be changed; there'd be pre-special Pivot and post-special Pivot and you can't make an acronym without overlap.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Reversed [neutral B] B-Reversal (RBR) makes sense to me >_>

Reverse Neutral Bs are already in Melee, and B-Reversal is sensible enough to describe what happens when you Special->Opposite input.

 

[GP&B]

Yeah, I'm more content with B-reversal as a term in general. Although looking at some of the other terms now, Glide Tossing sounds odd especially in the context of Brawl where characters can actually glide. Maybe I'm just trying to nitpick though.

 

[SpiderMad]

This is what I have:
B-reverse: just Changing the direction of the special attack in the air to face the opposite
Wavebounce: Changing momentum in the air with a special by reversing the B-reverse
B-sticking: Setting C-stick to Special to do Wavebouncing easier/better
Reverse gimmick: giving an opinion to a non-existent gimmick

 

[DrinkingFood]

Well, in typical smash naming convention, if vbawrlers were to force the "wave-" prefix into anything instead of wavebouncing (where it doesn't really fit), it would have fit in glide tossing in place of glide; it involves sliding along the ground like any other term in smash with the "wave-" prefix.

@Mad
you forgot a Reverse-Opinionated Double-Gimmick: turning attention towards your opinion of a backwards gimmick in reverse

 

[iLink]

wavebouncing was a dumb name

 

[Kink-Link5]

Well, in typical smash naming convention, if vbawrlers were to force the "wave-" prefix into anything instead of wavebouncing (where it doesn't really fit), it would have fit in glide tossing in place of glide; it involves sliding along the ground like any other term in smash with the "wave-" prefix.

@Mad
you forgot a Reverse-Opinionated Double-Gimmick: turning attention towards your opinion of a backwards gimmick in reverse

Yeah but that's just like, your opinion. Not everyone feels the same way about opinions and in some people's opinions they're a very good thing.

imho

 

[SpiderMad]

Why are you guys against wavebouncing?

@DF
you mean just like imo, Quickdrawing a Bomp Jumping working well never was good?

 

[Nintendude]

I agree with the spacies being the baseline strength of all characters. Playing as a really good character is fun, especially when every other character is really good. The lower the average strength of the characters, the more boring the game is. Obviously this isn't the case for everyone, but this is one of the reasons people like Melee (and 64) more than Brawl - in Brawl, the characters just kind of suck and aren't fun to play. In 64, everyone is broken and it's a damn fun game when there's no dumb camping going on.

However, I do advocate changing spacies to their PAL counterparts. The changes don't detract from their playability at all. Rather, they just have an ever so slightly harder time getting kills and they die a little bit easier. I've heard that they didn't want to displease users of those characters by giving them those slight nerfs, but that's a really silly argument imo and I hope they reconsider.

Also, it's worth noting that spacies are relatively weaker just by the fact that their matchups with a lot of low tiers are considerably less skewed now.

 

[DrinkingFood]

@Kink

@Mad
No that's Double-Gimmick Opinion-Dashing

 

[SpiderMad]

In 64, everyone is broken and it's a damn fun game when there's no dumb camping going on.
.

I think S2J said he disliked 64 players because they were "a bunch of camping ******s"

 

[Nintendude]

Right....and that's why I said "when there's no dumb camping going on"

 

[ELI-mination]

I agree with the spacies being the baseline strength of all characters. Playing as a really good character is fun, especially when every other character is really good. The lower the average strength of the characters, the more boring the game is. Obviously this isn't the case for everyone, but this is one of the reasons people like Melee (and 64) more than Brawl - in Brawl, the characters just kind of suck and aren't fun to play. In 64, everyone is broken and it's a damn fun game when there's no dumb camping going on.

However, I do advocate changing spacies to their PAL counterparts. The changes don't detract from their playability at all. Rather, they just have an ever so slightly harder time getting kills and they die a little bit easier. I've heard that they didn't want to displease users of those characters by giving them those slight nerfs, but that's a really silly argument imo and I hope they reconsider.

Also, it's worth noting that spacies are relatively weaker just by the fact that their matchups with a lot of low tiers are considerably less skewed now.

I totally agree with everything in this post.
Also I totally agree with DK being able to kill with an unseen fart during his giant donkey punch.

 

[GP&B]

Maybe it's because I don't watch enough competitive 64, but when I play it I feel like I'm incapable camping and I mean that in a good way. I mean, I could bomb/rang camp with Link, but with the hours of stun on both of those moves, why would I not run in and start UTilt spamming, mirite?

 

[ELI-mination]

That's precisely why people camp in 64.... because one hit typically means death, lol