cannedbread
Smash Lord
i wish that forum was mobile. i lurk it so much. i want to spam my wrong opinions everywhere.
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Project M Social Thread
- Thread starter Project M
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N.A.G.A.C.E
Smash Champion
Why does ike have armor on his up b while ddd has no armor on his?
Metà
Smash Master
^ better question, why does ike have armour at all on his up-b
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,559
Why doesn't Ike have a shine?Why does ike have armor on his up b while ddd has no armor on his?
Why doesn't DK have a sex kick?
Why doesn't Falcon have a DJC?
Oversaturate the cast with a unique feature and it stops being a unique feature.
b2j135
Da Bess Pit
lol balancing 101 right here son!
Shadic
Alakadoof?
That's bair-ly true.
N.A.G.A.C.E
Smash Champion
thats what i was getting at (although ddd should have some armor since he is just a giant hurtbox)^ better question, why does ike have armour at all on his up-b
clearly not the same at all. ddd had armor on his up b in brawl and instead of just changing it to knock back armor you guys got rid of it all together even through his up B where he has no hit box till he is on his way down (i think thats where it starts). Which leaves his way more susceptible to gimps then ikes recovery even if ike didnt have armor.
so no its not like asking why falcon doesnt have a djc b/c he never had that and it would make no sense to the character to add it, same with dk and a sex kick and ike with a shine. so please dont be condescending when you respond to a legitimate question about your character design choices.
Spoon~
Smash Ace
This. It's hard enough to get in on it to edgeguard as is.^ better question, why does ike have armour at all on his up-b
DrinkingFood
Smash Hero
Of all the things to complain about, you guys choose the most insignificant thing. Ike's armor on up-b is barely noticeable. It's not super armor, it's very weak knockback armor. Sonic's spring is about the strongest move that won't knock him out of it, maybe Fox's shine won't. It also doesn't last as long as his super armor did in vbrawl.
metroid1117
Smash Master
Fox's shine does not hit through Aether's knockback (KB) armor. Also, "strongest move" is percent-dependent; Sheik's FAir is certainly stronger than Sonic's spring at high %s, but it also cannot hit through Aether at low %s. According to Monk, the knockback armor is 80, but I'm not sure what that translates into for attack strength.
Also, according to Kirk's Ike Frame Data Thread and Monk's thread, the armors in both games are placed on the same frames. For vBrawl, it's during frames 18-38, which is 21 frames long. For Ike:M, he goes through 17 frames of start-up and then the KB armor starts on frame 1 of Aether rise (which is frame 18 overall) and ends on frame 21 of Aether rise (which is frame 38 overall), adding up to being 21 frames long.
Just to be clear, I think Ike needs the armor. If Aether were to be nerfed, I'd rather see the height decrease or his edgegrab hitbox made slightly smaller; according to Kizzu, the sweetspot range is huge, such that Marth's DTilt and FSmash can't reach it.
`dazrin
Smash Champion
Great post as usual, Metroid.
metroid1117
Smash Master
It depends on when you time the edge hog; if you do it early enough, then you'll be fine. However, if you do it too late, then you'll be hit by the sword and either popped up if it was moving upward or spiked if it was stationary. It sounds unreasonable in theory, but considering that players have edgehogged much quicker up+Bs like Marth's, it's a matter of timing the edgehog based on Ike's options at his position. (Can he double-jump? Can he reach the edge? Can he wait any longer? Can he QDWJ? etc.) To give an idea of the timing, here's an example of TheGoodDoctor edgehogging me. (I had tried stalling with my double-jump in case he edgehogged too early, but he called my stall, waited for my jump, and got the timing down perfectly.) A second example comes up later in the match, if people want more demos.
Also, note that the lower Ike goes to Aether, the more lenient the edgehogging window is. This is because when Ike goes higher, you have to worry about the hitbox he has when coming down, thus requiring more invincibility frames to avoid it. However, if he's at the sweetspot range, then the downward hitbox can't hit you, so you don't need as many invincibility frames (or edge occupancy frames, for that matter). When Ike goes high (slightly above edge-level), then you need to grab the edge right before Aether passes through it like TGD did in the example above and then roll to complete the edgehog.
EDIT:
If Ike spaces Aether properly, then he should be able to make it back even if the cape flips him around at the apex. However, you can still cape him as he's drifting towards the stage before he starts Aether and kill him that way.
Dingding123
Smash Journeyman
It hasn't been brought up here in a while, so I figure I'll be that guy and ask:
Any signs of the dropped frames from jumping/airdodging/whatever becoming history anytime soon?
Edit: SB's sig
Any signs of the dropped frames from jumping/airdodging/whatever becoming history anytime soon?
Edit: SB's sig
leelue
Smash Lord
Food, I wanted to know why he had it in the first place, since it seems out of place and random,, like sonics invincibility out of side b. Not because of power level or whatever other reason, just a "why is this here"
MaxThunder
PM Support
18 + 21 is 39... just sayan'...
But it's 17+21=38 if you read what he's saying correctly... Don't question Metroid about Ike =P
MaxThunder
PM Support
he says the armor starts on the first frame of aether rise, which he says is frame 18 overall, and continues for 21 frames and ends on overall frame 38...
the only 17 frames he mentioned are the 17 frames of startup before the armor... i think you're the one reading it incorrectly...
GunBlaze
Smash Lord
Anyone of you knows why Mario doesn't suffer much hitstun?
JCaesar
Smash Hero
Sounds like you're playing Brawl. In Project M, Mario suffers just as much hitstun as everyone else in his weight class.
Kizzu-kun
Smash Journeyman
That kind of question always surface, I wonder if people aren't realizing that the number of heavy weights increased and their perceptions about what is normal changed.
Archangel
Smash Hero
Mario has the same hit-stun. It's just harder to combo Mario because alot of moves don't have comparable hitstun on them. You can still get a Knee on him if you catch him with a stomp as falcon. However it might not work with pit or Wolf the same way. I think that is what throws people off. Not to mention with Mario surviving to higher %'s now at some point he is harder to combo but not changed at all.
Why does Wolf have a (Melee) Shine? Why does Lucas have a DJC?
Not that I think these are necessarily bad or biased design choices, but it seems like "because these characters do/don't fit a certain category" is a more accurate response.
Shadic
Alakadoof?
Hitstun is Melee. There is no "per-move" hitstun, so he's never under less hitstun than he was in Melee.
ELI-mination
Smash Champion
metroid1117
Smash Master
With regards to the hitstun discussion, the amount of hitstun a character undergoes is inversely proportional to the character's weight. This means that heavy characters undergo less frames of hitstun than lighter characters. As for the amount of hitstun that a move causes, I'm pretty sure it's based on the knockback of that move; that's why Falcon's knee has more hitstun than his jab.
That's true, but keep in mind that for frame data, you include the starting frame. If you count number 18, there are 21 numbers from 18 to 38. (An easy/basic/embarrassing way to check that I use is counting on my fingers; if you count on your fingers starting from 18, you'll find that your fingers count to 21 when you reach 38.)
MaxThunder
PM Support
ah i see... my bad, then...
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
All of them lol. There's no reason for moves like nair and dair to be as slow as they are.
Good thing those don't matter if his moves get beaten by every other move in the game.
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
I'd be glad to talk about Koakuma instead.
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
Uhh.
Ahdunnuh Fox can just pew pew pew against any character that can counter his aggressive play and wreck havoc against anyone that can out-camp him. You'd need a character with maximum camping and punishing ability, and the ability to switch between the two instantly.
I guess Fox might work.
Ahdunnuh Fox can just pew pew pew against any character that can counter his aggressive play and wreck havoc against anyone that can out-camp him. You'd need a character with maximum camping and punishing ability, and the ability to switch between the two instantly.
I guess Fox might work.
OmegaMuffin
Smash Journeyman
This just made my day.Fox counters Fox?
Sounds legit.
ELI-mination
Smash Champion
I ****ing love that picture.
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