Project M Social Thread

[9Kplus1]

One of the biggest trolls

You should consider that, nowadays, I only make troll posts during times which they wouldn't matter anyway. Like when this thread's topic of discussion nosedives into nonsensical idiocy.

Yes please, I'd do that over anything right now. Trolling should be killed, it serves no purpose other than to be annoying and be ****ing stupid.

Agreed. It's horrible when legitimate topics get derailed by this thread's short attention span and ****ty sense of humor.

 

[iLink]

Alrighty, time to put in my 2 cents.

Lucario, as he is now, would likely be the worst character in the game if he could not cancel on shield. Just because you feel overwhelmed the first time you encounter someone good using him, doesn't mean there isn't a way to work around everything. Weaknesses are a lot more noticeable when you actually use the character yourself. He would also probably the unsafest character on shield ever.

As he is now, Lucario has a pretty terrible approach. His air game is hard to follow up because his air physics don't really compliment the trajectory of his attacks. He is pretty limited to staying on the ground in order to really get damage on you. With that said, his only real good approach is dash attack. Couple his limited approach options with him not being able to cancel on shield with unsafe attacks. What do you get? He kind of needs to be able to do cancels to make up for having trouble actually getting to you. His only strength as a character is sticking to you once he gets in.

Instead of looking at what you feel is unfair, look at how to avoid it or just straight up beat it. Jab > sideb is literally only 1 frame faster then just straight up grabbing you, which is going to beat your shield out anyway. If you feel that is really wrecking you, avoid putting yourself in the situation where he can just jab you. Same goes with dash attack > sideb. Dash attack starts up on frame 6 and usually reaches you at about frame 10-14 if he isn't right next to you. If you know that is his only good approach, just scout for it and punish it accordingly. Keep yourself at a distance to bait it out and isn't hard to avoid. Not going to bother mentioning ftilt since its literally slower then just grabbing. There is always a space where it is advantageous to be against certain characters, work to figure out that space.

Now to bring up the disadvantages of jab/dash attack > sideb. If the lucario only focuses on that setup, he is missing out on a lot of other potential options. Lets say the jab actually connects with the opponent, at that point it is usually best to follow it with something like dtilt and then any other possible follow up depending on their DI. Lets assume the lucario isn't blindly mashing out a sideb ASAP after the jab and actually look for a hit confirm. Jab has very little shield stun at all so if there's even the slightly break between the jab and sideb, you can usually escape it. Go ahead and try it yourself, you'd be surprised how many times you can probably roll out of it because the lucario is either not being frame tight or looking for a hitconfirm. This is even worse with lucario's dash attack, because if it actually hits the player and not his shield, he usually won't connect the sideb if they are at higher percents and will just whiff it. If you see the lucario is only focusing on getting that guaranteed grab after the jab, then that makes your job easier because you know what to expect for most of the match and you can space yourself to avoid that situation from happening.

On the note of guaranteed grabs, I recall falco having a guaranteed grab on shield with his laser in brawl. Does that still apply for him in project m?

 

[DMG]

I'm nearly positive he doesn't have grab confirmed on shield in Brawl. Jab maybe, not grab.

Maybe on regular hit?

 

[iLink]

I'm nearly positive he doesn't have grab confirmed on shield in Brawl. Jab maybe, not grab.

Maybe on regular hit?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8lxdPRlBas

And an important quote from the video

Once your opponent realizes what you are doing they'll understand that they need to drop their shield and attack you or spot dodge/roll away before you get them with the trap

Except you have much more movement options in project m.

Also curious if this is still a thing in project m.

 

[DMG]

Ok so the stale laser advantage was what I thought the original advantage was. I thought it was +3 or 4 on block period, that's interesting although to take advantage of it means not spamming laser at the beginning. Lame

Either way, as far as Melee or Project M goes, Im pretty sure Falco's advantage (on reg hit at least) was even stronger.

 

[GHNeko]

DMG you make me want to come visit you guys in TX. ;_;

 

[DrinkingFood]

Yes please, I'd do that over anything right now. Trolling should be killed, it serves no purpose other than to be annoying and be ****ing stupid.

That's just your opinion and because it's an opinion you can't back it up and since you can't back it up, you're wrong.

 

[metroid1117]

Sometimes I wonder why certain people bother posting.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Neko, you can visit me in Waterloo, IA, any time you want, I'd love to show you the homo art of Nairzard. c:

 

[DrinkingFood]

Sometimes I wonder why certain people bother posting.

Sometimes I wonder why certain people bother wondering.

 

[PGH Carroll]

IKE

****ing

IKE

 

[9Kplus1]

Ike is free

9K Triple D ftw

 

[Kink-Link5]

That's like



27,000 Ds

 

[metroid1117]

I could be playing the match-up wrong, but I'm pretty sure that Ike vs. D3 is in D3's favor. Ike can combo D3 really well, but if D3 is smart with his CC's, then Ike will be hard-pressed to get anything started below 30% (maybe even 40%). D3's long range makes it hard for Ike to counter CC's with grabs and D3 is also very good at edgeguarding Ike, so a BThrow off-stage at mid%s is going to be a stock if D3 plays it right between BAirs to edgeguard QD and DAir -> FAir or edgehogging for low Aethers.

 

[DrinkingFood]

We maths now

 

[PGH Carroll]

I hate this game so much but my d3 is still legend.

I will teach my secrets to ONE LICKY PLAYER at the big house.

Yeah and IKE

 

[standardtoaster]

I want to be the licky player

 

[PGH Carroll]

LOOOOOOOOOOL its hard to type on your phone with one hand.

I'm using the other to masturbate to IKE dittos

 

[9Kplus1]

I could be playing the match-up wrong, but I'm pretty sure that Ike vs. D3 is in D3's favor. Ike can combo D3 really well, but if D3 is smart with his CC's, then Ike will be hard-pressed to get anything started below 30% (maybe even 40%). D3's long range makes it hard for Ike to counter CC's with grabs and D3 is also very good at edgeguarding Ike, so a BThrow off-stage at mid%s is going to be a stock if D3 plays it right between BAirs to edgeguard QD and DAir -> FAir or edgehogging for low Aethers.

DDD vs Ike is most certainly in DDD's favor for the reasons you've already mentioned, as well as a few more. Ike, from my experiences at least, is hard-pressed to find an opening through which he can approach DDD. With well placed aerials, tilts, minions (this is one of the very few MUs in which I feel comfortable tossing out Waddle Dees / Doos), and even Swallows, DDD can severely limit Ike's approach options; it really feels to me that simply swinging away at Ike places the player using him in a position which they must regroup their thoughts and figure out how the DDD prefers to defend their self before attempting to go in. One of my favorite benefits using of DDD is the ability to check a variety of the opposing players options through a very simple change in patterns. If the DDD is super-predictable, the MU should be Easy Street for Ike; however, good DDD players who aren't reluctant to adapt and switch up their game, such as myself on a joyful day, can place Ike in a checkmate position very easily.

... and for the record, Jet Hammer also wrecks Aether hardcore.

 

[metroid1117]

DDD vs Ike is most certainly in DDD's favor for the reasons you've already mentioned, as well as a few more. Ike, from my experiences at least, is hard-pressed to find an opening through which he can approach DDD. With well placed aerials, tilts, minions (this is one of the very few MUs in which I feel comfortable tossing out Waddle Dees / Doos), and even Swallows, DDD can severely limit Ike's approach options; it really feels to me that simply swinging away at Ike places the player using him in a position which they must regroup their thoughts and figure out how the DDD prefers to defend their self before attempting to go in. One of my favorite benefits using of DDD is the ability to check a variety of the opposing players options through a very simple change in patterns. If the DDD is super-predictable, the MU should be Easy Street for Ike; however, good DDD players who aren't reluctant to adapt and switch up their game, such as myself on a joyful day, can place Ike in a checkmate position very easily.

... and for the record, Jet Hammer also wrecks Aether hardcore.

Interesting, thanks for posting that. I don't really agree with the Waddle Dees/Doos when both players are onstage though, from my experience it wasn't very hard to jump over the minion and FAir. However, when Ike is off-stage, they can get really annoying.

EDIT: By the way, if we're referring to on-stage Jet Hammer, I doubt that it can hit a sweetspotted Aether, since not even Marth's DTilt can touch it.

Lastly, I have a question regarding Din's Fires - I don't think they should be changed from how they are now, but are there any other rules to destroying them besides hitting them with a hitbox? I ask because I haven't been able to destroy a Din's Fire with the ascending portion of Aether before, even when the fire has been out for a while. If a typical opponent was where the fires were, then they definitely would be hit, but the fires are never destroyed. They are, however, destroyed by the descending portion of Aether. Is there a damage threshold that must be surpassed before the fires are deactivated? Or are they impervious to projectiles and must be destroyed by physical attacks?

 

[Divinokage]

Alrighty, time to put in my 2 cents.

Lucario, as he is now, would likely be the worst character in the game if he could not cancel on shield. Just because you feel overwhelmed the first time you encounter someone good using him, doesn't mean there isn't a way to work around everything. Weaknesses are a lot more noticeable when you actually use the character yourself. He would also probably the unsafest character on shield ever.

As he is now, Lucario has a pretty terrible approach. His air game is hard to follow up because his air physics don't really compliment the trajectory of his attacks. He is pretty limited to staying on the ground in order to really get damage on you. With that said, his only real good approach is dash attack. Couple his limited approach options with him not being able to cancel on shield with unsafe attacks. What do you get? He kind of needs to be able to do cancels to make up for having trouble actually getting to you. His only strength as a character is sticking to you once he gets in.

Instead of looking at what you feel is unfair, look at how to avoid it or just straight up beat it. Jab > sideb is literally only 1 frame faster then just straight up grabbing you, which is going to beat your shield out anyway. If you feel that is really wrecking you, avoid putting yourself in the situation where he can just jab you. Same goes with dash attack > sideb. Dash attack starts up on frame 6 and usually reaches you at about frame 10-14 if he isn't right next to you. If you know that is his only good approach, just scout for it and punish it accordingly. Keep yourself at a distance to bait it out and isn't hard to avoid. Not going to bother mentioning ftilt since its literally slower then just grabbing. There is always a space where it is advantageous to be against certain characters, work to figure out that space.

Now to bring up the disadvantages of jab/dash attack > sideb. If the lucario only focuses on that setup, he is missing out on a lot of other potential options. Lets say the jab actually connects with the opponent, at that point it is usually best to follow it with something like dtilt and then any other possible follow up depending on their DI. Lets assume the lucario isn't blindly mashing out a sideb ASAP after the jab and actually look for a hit confirm. Jab has very little shield stun at all so if there's even the slightly break between the jab and sideb, you can usually escape it. Go ahead and try it yourself, you'd be surprised how many times you can probably roll out of it because the lucario is either not being frame tight or looking for a hitconfirm. This is even worse with lucario's dash attack, because if it actually hits the player and not his shield, he usually won't connect the sideb if they are at higher percents and will just whiff it. If you see the lucario is only focusing on getting that guaranteed grab after the jab, then that makes your job easier because you know what to expect for most of the match and you can space yourself to avoid that situation from happening.

On the note of guaranteed grabs, I recall falco having a guaranteed grab on shield with his laser in brawl. Does that still apply for him in project m?

I understand that but it's by principle that certain things should not be in a game that should resemble Melee. There should be always an option when something happens and not lose character control. Like if you get hit on shield, you should always have the option to do a move OOS, roll, side-step or wavedash OOS... if it doesn't follow this standard then you are pretty much now fighting something completely different. It's not the same game anymore.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Interesting, thanks for posting that. I don't really agree with the Waddle Dees/Doos when both players are onstage though, from my experience it wasn't very hard to jump over the minion and FAir. However, when Ike is off-stage, they can get really annoying.

From all that I could tell, as long as Fly was choosing the right zoning tool, you couldn't really do anything about it and had to wait for him to choose the wrong one since Ike doesn't really have any way to force an approach when he wants one or bait anything Dedede can't easily work around.

Like literally as long as Fly chose the right option you seemed have no real way of getting in or getting around it.

I understand that but it's by principle that certain things should not be in a game that should resemble Melee. There should be always an option when something happens and not lose character control. Like if you get hit on shield, you should always have the option to do a move OOS, roll, side-step or wavedash OOS... if it doesn't follow this standard then you are pretty much now fighting something completely different. It's not the same game anymore.

Something makes me highly doubt Lucario's anything is +9 on block (This accounts for the extra frame side-stepping takes), so sidestepping when your shield is attacked is a very real option with Lucario's side B having 9 non-active frames before it grabs.

I apologise for informing you otherwise before, but it seems Lucario can not cancel the start up of side-B when using chain arts, and, well I'd have to hear more about whether he can cancel hitlag, but, but, it is important to know that since Lucario's, well, everything, does very low damage, it also has very low shield stun, lower than most moves in the game really. So yes, you can do all of those things OoS against Lucario without getting grabbed, just like you can with Peach.

 

[Divinokage]

But you can't, I tried before.. you can't jump out and it didn't even looked like you can roll.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I understand your plea Kage, and I feel for you; I'm not just trying to argue for the sake of arguing, please do not be sad any more!

 

[cannedbread]

i agree with kage. lucario definitely isn't broken and has his share of advantages, but hit confirming a shield ≠ grab. especially when you consider that shield pushback doesn't match melee yet and shields actually push away farther than they should when hit (someone correct me if i'm wrong). it's just one of those things i find myself asking "why is this even a thing?"

 

[metroid1117]

From all that I could tell, as long as Fly was choosing the right zoning tool, you couldn't really do anything about it and had to wait for him to choose the wrong one since Ike doesn't really have any way to force an approach when he wants one or bait anything Dedede can't easily work around.

Like literally as long as Fly chose the right option you seemed have no real way of getting in or getting around it.

This is true, especially as seen how I went 0-6 against Fly at one point. However, I won the last three games consecutively; an elite player like Fly should be able to adapt after one loss, but three in a row indicates that Ike still has things going for him like combos and edgeguarding (I wasn't even using DTilt in those matches, even though I should've). I agree that Ike-D3 is definitely in D3's favor, but realistically, Ike is going to get in at some point or another and he is very unforgiving for those openings. It's a hard match-up, but it's by no means an auto-loss.

 

[DMG]

Unforgiving with a big sword?

 

[Kink-Link5]

Kage, I drew a picture, Just-For-You!

 

[cannedbread]

so i was playing today and my brother was sandbagging like ****. he was playing ness and decided to pkt2 across the stage everywhere for whatever reasons.

i was playing zelda and she's slow so it's hard to punish it besides in neutral position. he has like no lag afterwards and could follow up with a grab or other ness things. it was mostly funny to me so i could be exaggerating this but i think but could be a valid strategy against slow floaties who rely on grounded approaches and whatnot. or maybe i'm just a terrible player and i'm rambling.

#2015metagame

 

[MaxThunder]

^^ wavedash out of zelda's up-b to follow him?..

 

[Hylian]

People are complaining about hit-confirmed command grabs but like crouch cancelling?

God melee players are weird lol.

 

[Divinokage]

People are complaining about hit-confirmed command grabs but like crouch cancelling?

God melee players are weird lol.

CC can be countered.

And no I am not sad, I'm just being real.

 

[Archangel]

crouch canceling is OP'd needs to be nerfed.

 

[Kizzu-kun]

I could be playing the match-up wrong, but I'm pretty sure that Ike vs. D3 is in D3's favor. Ike can combo D3 really well, but if D3 is smart with his CC's, then Ike will be hard-pressed to get anything started below 30% (maybe even 40%). D3's long range makes it hard for Ike to counter CC's with grabs and D3 is also very good at edgeguarding Ike, so a BThrow off-stage at mid%s is going to be a stock if D3 plays it right between BAirs to edgeguard QD and DAir -> FAir or edgehogging for low Aethers.

The same can be said for Ike's Crouch Cancel.
Crouch Cancelling completely shutdown D3's Ftilt if Ike has less than 100% damage. Ike can follow up successful CCs into QD JCGrabs.

Other zoning options from D3 also have the same problem with Ike CC with the exception of multiple hit attacks such as Dair and jab loop. If Ike CC an aerial such as D3's shFair, he can do QD attack very fast, follow up with 1 or 2 Jabs and grab D3 or do a reverse Bair (QDatk -> reverse Bair is a guaranteed combo starting from 50%).

I know that is somewhat difficult to space properly with Ike only using ground attacks, but whiffing a Ftilt/Dtilt can bait D3 to Ftilt Ike, and then Ike can CC it.

 

[metroid1117]

The same can be said for Ike's Crouch Cancel.
Crouch Cancelling completely shutdown D3's Ftilt if Ike has less than 100% damage. Ike can follow up successful CCs into QD JCGrabs.

Other zoning options from D3 also have the same problem with Ike CC with the exception of multiple hit attacks such as Dair and jab loop. If Ike CC an aerial such as D3's shFair, he can do QD attack very fast, follow up with 1 or 2 Jabs and grab D3 or do a reverse Bair (QDatk -> reverse Bair is a guaranteed combo starting from 50%).

I know that is somewhat difficult to space properly with Ike only using ground attacks, but whiffing a Ftilt/Dtilt can bait D3 to Ftilt Ike, and then Ike can CC it.

Kizzu, you're awesome and I seriously have to use CC'ing more in general. Thanks for the advice!

People are complaining about hit-confirmed command grabs but like crouch cancelling?

God melee players are weird lol.

For the record, I'm against CC'ing being so powerful and think it should be nerfed in some way, shape, or form.

 

[`dazrin]

I agree with Kage that it's kind of stupid how Lucario has the potential to make any of his moves be safe on shield if he ends his string in sideb. It makes everything he does guaranteed 100% safe on shield, and I agree that no matter how hard it is to use Lucario, or how much Lucario's approach options may be lacking, it could cause some problems.

I mean, Fox and Falco can make most of their aerials safe on shield by shining afterward, but usually you have some time to do an aerial oos, roll, or even just drop your shield and techroll away. Not to mention that the input arguably more technically difficult with those characters. With Lucario, you don't have those kinds of OOS options given Lucario's moveset and the way he works. It's a fundamentally flawed concept in the game IMO.

You should always have SOMETHING you can do to react to a move. That's why things like sheik's NTSC guaranteed-chaingrab nonsense isn't in projectM.

This is all just my opinion though.

 

[Wavebuster]

so i was playing today and my brother was sandbagging like ****. he was playing ness and decided to pkt2 across the stage everywhere for whatever reasons.

i was playing zelda and she's slow so it's hard to punish it besides in neutral position. he has like no lag afterwards and could follow up with a grab or other ness things. it was mostly funny to me so i could be exaggerating this but i think but could be a valid strategy against slow floaties who rely on grounded approaches and whatnot. or maybe i'm just a terrible player and i'm rambling.

#2015metagame

If he ever PKT2's into you you can just Nayru him from the ground and win. The grounded version of the move is designed to counter cheesy maneuvers like that.

 

[GHNeko]

IF YOU GUYS NERF LUCARIO IM NEVER GONNA PLAY AGAIN.

Spoiler

oh wait there arent any lucario mains for this joke to really take effect lol

 

[ss118]

As far as I know Lucario has no range on moves that are fast enough to get in, and his moves with range don't even allow you to cancel into anything guaranteed. Sounds like anyone with decent range should do well vs Lucario because he doesn't seem fast enough to consistently get in like someone like fox.

Could be wrong, though. The only Lucario I play against isn't that good. Trying to pick him up, but I prefer to keep my smash and FG's separate lol. And by "prefer" I mean "I'm too much a melee player."

 

[GHNeko]

66A xx 6B , 5A 5A 6A 6A!! , 2B 5A 8A 8A!! j.xx 6A 6B.

Spoiler

Smash is a FG.