Project M Social Thread

[leelue]

Kink, I do agree that those things are very unusual and eccentric(?) but is there some mostly arbitrary line in the sand to draw?
With fox on one side in particular cough
just starting conversation

It is kinda nuts that you literally can't block this character

Broken and reasonable are related but different.

 

[Divinokage]

The line is guaranteed and then not guaranteed.

 

[iLink]

What do you guys think of Lucario? I played vs a really good one yesterday and it felt like I wasn't playing a smash game anymore. Guaranteed grabs from moves should not be possible, all the characters usually don't have that. The more I play it, the more I realize there are a lot of things which veers off what characters should be able to do like a normal smash game. I'm not liking that.

The only way lucario is going to get a guaranteed grab on you is if you let him jab or dash attack you. Even then, if the lucario isn't super fast about canceling right away, you can usually roll away before the sideb grabs you. You need to keep yourself at an appropriate distance to be able to bait his dash attack since that is literally his only good approach. It's as simple as jumping over to punish it.

He has trouble following up much in the air so he doesn't like it too much if you are jumping often.

 

[Kink-Link5]

You can avoid the initial hit that leads into a grab, in most cases.

I just space with Lucario's bair into down-B to kill at 90% so I don't really use side-B too much, but the concept of looking to avoid the hit-confirms is something you just have to adjust to.

 

[leelue]

You cannot act before Lucario can grab you, ilink

 

[iLink]

It's fundamentally no different then something like ganon's sideb. You don't try to block ganon's sideb, you avoid it or knock him out of it. The only difference is that lucario needs to transition into it. You just have to look for the attacks that lead into it.

@leelue: That's assuming the lucario times it correctly. I'm saying if the lucario is trying to hitconfirm and watch to so if they shield or get hit first, then they might choose to just sideb right away or choose to do a different follow up. Yes I know its unavoidable if they are frame tight about it but at higher percents, its not always wise to input sideb right away as you won't be able to connect with it if something like the dash attack actually connects.

 

[leelue]

It is rather different in context. Ganon has to start up (most importantly) and can't do it in many portions of the stage.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Lucario's Jab can only come out when his *** is touching the opponent though; it's quite comparable in that regard.

 

[iLink]

Lucario still needs to startup his other attack to transition into sideb. And how can't ganon do it in many portions of the stage? He can even do it in the air.

Isn't lucario's grab faster then his jab anyway? If he's at jab range, he could just choose to grab anyway.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I'll get that information if no one else does first.

 

[iLink]

I would do it myself but I'm about to head out

 

[Kink-Link5]

DashTurn Grab: Frame 9
Dash Grab: Frame 8
Grab: Frame 7
Dash Attack: Frame 7
Jab: Frame 6

Side B grab would come out in frames of attacks+1, or, by itself on frame 10. When canceled it ignores any current hitlag Lucario is in and goes immediately into the grab on the next frame.

 

[leelue]

Jab also can't be spot dodged and has less endlag (probably)

Edit
Spot dodged, as in, it doesn't lose to spot dodge

 

[Kink-Link5]

Also, thinking on the idea of crossups, they are in smash; they just have a different function than in other fighters. Sheik's DashAttack is an example; they hit the opponent's shield, then end up on the other side of the opponent, where the opponent's fastest OoS options are limited to shielddrop turnaround whatever, or jump bair.

I was just thinking of how this pertains to characters like Sonic or Pikachu or whatever the ****.

 

[Divinokage]

My point is just that you can't perform any action before the grab happens and being in shield happens pretty often because sometimes you have to be in it to not take dmg but then he can just **** that and damage you anyway, it literally feels like I'm playing like Brawl+ or some ****.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I've been in favour of making Lucario only cancel after hitlag is over myself; not for balance reasons, but just for sensible purposes, for what it's worth. Give him buffs if needed to compensate. Reversible Down-B would be a god-send spacing option with a late Bair cancel.

 

[kaizo13]

i hear your concerns, i don't really see it as a big issue in Lucario's current build.

personally I like how it makes you re-think your offensive/defensive decisions. It's all about adjusting to the matchup.

 

[Strong Badam]

SDI is crucial vs. Lucario.

 

[DMG]

What do you guys think of Lucario? I played vs a really good one yesterday and it felt like I wasn't playing a smash game anymore. Guaranteed grabs from moves should not be possible, all the characters usually don't have that. The more I play it, the more I realize there are a lot of things which veers off what characters should be able to do like a normal smash game. I'm not liking that.

I think it should work on hit but not on shield. Having it as a way to continue or vary up a combo is fine imo. Having it mindlessly work on shield is kind of silly lol.

I

Falcon is fine, he has to work for his stuff. He's not Ike you poons.

My point is just that you can't perform any action before the grab happens and being in shield happens pretty often because sometimes you have to be in it to not take dmg but then he can just **** that and damage you anyway, it literally feels like I'm playing like Brawl+ or some ****.

It's a bit ridiculous, but the point about spacing and baiting dash attack/his approaches is very true. I had to play one in tournament yesterday, I figured Falcon would be fine but I got messed up (as far as approaching goes, I probably could have baited and punished with Falcon but yeah). I switched to Marth and spaced/baited hard. Wasn't much he could do. Space Fair if he tries to go to the air, dash dance on the ground. Muy bueno. You're probably gonna have to do that with Ganon, along with CGing him any chance you get. Dunno how long it goes on Lucario exactly but I was pretty sure 60%+ ish.


Ike on the other hand, has more silliness going on. I dislike that character the more and more I see him played. I understand not changing things/letting the meta develop, but it's kinda obvious he's got a lot going on.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Ike is just a worse Falcon at the end of the day, at least based on how people are using him.

 

[Divinokage]

On hit I don't mind because at least I know I can control where my character goes, but ya on shield is not how a smash game works because no character in melee has anything guaranteed on shield, not even Shine-grab. If you remove that, I guess you would have to buff something else. I don't think it's right to change that one character should have over all the others.. or I mean how the game in general works.

You know.. you should make Ganon's Fair grab people, that would be nice won't it? lol.

 

[Strong Badam]

The entire game is filled with properties, moves, abilities, techniques, etc. that one or two characters have that none other do, and the same can be said about Melee. Having unique characters is a positive trait, not a negative one, in Project M.

 

[leelue]

This is where I refer to that arbitrary line from before.
The uniqueness of characters is of course a positive thing. But there of course exist things that could be beyond the realm of reason. Kage, and not just kage, believe this very well could be one of them.

 

[Divinokage]

The entire game is filled with properties, moves, abilities, techniques, etc. that one or two characters have that none other do, and the same can be said about Melee. Having unique characters is a positive trait, not a negative one, in Project M.

No it's not, everything is avoidable in Melee... I'm not sure you understand my point.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Lucario's jab is also avoidable, is the idea .


Peach's nair to grab on shield is also confirmed in Melee, and there's nothing you can do about it.

 

[Divinokage]

Lucario's jab is also avoidable, is the idea .


Peach's nair to grab on shield is also confirmed in Melee, and there's nothing you can do about it.

That's not true again, you can escape that by rolling or side-stepping. Any move to grab is not guaranteed.

 

[Strong Badam]

No it's not, everything is avoidable in Melee... I'm not sure you understand my point.

Shine -> upsmash is not avoidable.

You can SDI to try to mess them up, but then, you can do that to Lucario too.

Your arbitrary distinction isn't even accurate :/

 

[DMG]

Ike is just a worse Falcon at the end of the day, at least based on how people are using him.

What are you talking about? He does not play similar to Falcon at all. The "Ganon + Marth" description is much more accurate frankly. He's also IMO better than Falcon overall, but part of that is Falcon being roughly the same as Melee and some members of the cast getting better/newcomers have solid MU's vs Falcon I think.

On hit I don't mind because at least I know I can control where my character goes, but ya on shield is not how a smash game works because no character in melee has anything guaranteed on shield, not even Shine-grab. If you remove that, I guess you would have to buff something else.

You kinda would because Lucario in general honestly doesn't seem that ridiculous besides some of his cancels/side B on shield. That's the only complaint I have with him.

 

[Divinokage]

Shine -> upsmash is not avoidable.

You can SDI to try to mess them up, but then, you can do that to Lucario too.

Your arbitrary distinction isn't even accurate :/

You can't on shield.

 

[leelue]

Exactly what I was going to say
That wasn't the best analogy, sb

 

[Strong Badam]

Have you seriously not learned shield SDI?

 

[GHNeko]

http://www.twitch.tv/ghneko

Still going. Pizza break was over for a while.

 

[Kink-Link5]

You can't avoid Peach's nair to grab on shield either. The move is like +4 on block :/

 

[Strong Badam]

Kink, that's not correct. A move that's +4 on block does not combo into grab, as it takes 7 frames to grab and spotdodges mostly come out frame 2.

 

[Divinokage]

Have you seriously not learned shield SDI?

Don't try to start BS please, I've been playing for 10 years.

You can't avoid Peach's nair to grab on shield either. The move is like +4 on block :/

Yes you can, lol.

 

[Strong Badam]

....So you're saying that shield SDI doesn't exist, Kage?

 

[Divinokage]

....So you're saying that shield SDI doesn't exist, Kage?

No I'm saying shield SDI isn't good enough to avoid something like that, it doesn't really propel you very far.

 

[Strong Badam]

It all depends on their spacing beforehand. If they're all up on you and hit your shield, you probably deserved it. If they're spaced, you can SDI away from the side-b.

 

[DMG]

How far can you even shield SDI in Melee? Brawl is somewhat noticeable, but I figured Melee's version of it was not nearly as good. Either way, how many SDI inputs would you be able to get since he cancels into Side B so early anyways?

 

[Strong Badam]

He isn't actually able to cancel during hitlag, so the same number as if you were getting hit normally.