Project M Social Thread

[McNinja]

Shadic is just on a roll today.

 

[iLink]

I got a question about Ike actually.

Is his fair completely safe on shield when you ff l-cancel it?

I was playing someone yesterday that kept doing it within shield grab range and his jab would always hit me before my grab would.

 

[DrinkingFood]

DI down and towards him as he jabs you and mash shield grab. You'll DI the jab towards him and CC the jab, and have time to grab him. This is what magus said on a thread on smashmods. I think you shieldgrab because trying to grab while crouched will result in dtilt.
Of course if you've got a fast frame one attack or an attack with invincibility until hitboxes, that works too. The spacies for the first one, and multiple characters, including Snake, for the second one.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Fair has dumb shield pushback because lolbrawl shields, but I don't know the frame data on the fair, which is probably different depending on when in the move it hits and how soon he does the move after the SH.

 

[iLink]

Well I just remembered while using lucario, that whenever Ike hit my shield at grab range, it did enough shield stun to where his jab would connect before I could grab which I thought was pretty dumb given how lenient the attack is anyway with the huge range.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Grabs occur on, like what, frame 5 is the fastest? It's possible it frametrapped instead.

 

[Strong Badam]

grabs are never faster than frame 7

 

[JediKnightTemplar]

Is Ike still awful?

No, I'm pretty sure he's broken this week.

LOL at the stabbing your ears, btw...is that a reference from To Aru Majutsu no Index at all?

No, it isn't. I've never heard of that anime before.

 

[Kink-Link5]

It's very possible it frame trapped. Ike Jab is frame 3, while grabs are much slower. Sidestep into CC would be a better answer against Ike.

 

[Reika Kitami]

Hey I'm new and I'm thinking about buying an SD card to install this but I have some questions.

What's the difference between this and brawl/melee?

 

[Deleted member]

Is Ike still awful?

is his air to ground game still atrocious?

it's the same question really.

 

[Kink-Link5]

You can still run under Ike with little worry about much of anything.

Hey I'm new and I'm thinking about buying an SD card to install this but I have some questions.

What's the difference between this and brawl/melee?

From Melee: Middle-Low tier character buffs and revamps, footstooling possible through a taunt (which can be mapped to your unused jump/shield button if needed), dashturn grabs, "1 frame slow physics" that mostly effect SHs and air dodges marginally, everyone can sweetspot the ledge backwards like Fox can. Some other character tweaks, such as Sheik's PAL d-throw and B-throw being sped up.

From Brawl: Physics made to match Melee as closely as possible, backwards grabbing the ledge is only possible when edgespotting it, footstools can be teched, most Brawl characters reinvisioned for a Melee environment.

Off the top of my head.

 

[DrinkingFood]

@Reika KitamiThere's a lot more than what Kink said that's more specific but that's the gist of it. If you were a fan of melee then you'll probably understand the changes better than if you've never played it. Simply put though, the game is a lot more fast paced and balanced. Hope you enjoy.

 

[metroid1117]

is his air to ground game still atrocious?

it's the same question really.

In my matches with Fly, I felt that the air to ground game was bad, but nowhere near "atrocious." Considering his wealth of Melee experience and general intelligence over mine, I think I would've done considerably worse than 4-6 if Ike is as bad as you say he is.

 

[leelue]

Reiki, if you even vaguely enjoyed a nontop tier character in melee, you're sure to love them in pm.

 

[DMG]

I disagree. How anyone had fun playing Bowser in Melee I will never know

P:M Bowser hell yeah, old Bowser ewwww

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Old Bowser was fast. New Bowser is not so much.

 

[Juushichi]

Fast how, Reflex?

Not challenging your opinion. Legitimately interested.

 

[JediKnightTemplar]

Reiki, if you even vaguely enjoyed a nontop tier character in melee, you're sure to love them in pm.

I'd say even if you enjoyed them in Brawl you'd love them in P:M. Playing Ness in P:M after having played Ness in Brawl felt absolutely amazing.

 

[cannedbread]

i'm not really in love with lucas' moveset changes but he's still fun

 

[Deleted member]

In my matches with Fly, I felt that the air to ground game was bad, but nowhere near "atrocious." Considering his wealth of Melee experience and general intelligence over mine, I think I would've done considerably worse than 4-6 if Ike is as bad as you say he is.

that's good for you, did you save any videos? if i can see that ike's holes can be covered instead of openly exploited, i might change my opinion of him.

i guess i'll go into some depth as to why i think ike is bad. i think ike has several holes revolving around his ability to go to the ground from the air, or vice versa to a lesser extent.

1. landing- in my testing of the character, i would stand outside of his attacking range right before he landed, the attack would miss, and then i would punish his landing or l cancel lag. you can do this to marth in melee, so i'm familiar with how to exploit this. overall, i had no problem catching him every time with the characters i played (mostly shek/marth, but also zelda, kirby, falco, falcon, others). my test punishment was GRAB, as that's most likely the punish of choice. to be clear, this is a really damaging fatal flaw, it's the worst universal flaw to lose to as an excellent dashgrab is almost a fundamental requirement of a good character- the ones you'll be most likely to face in competition. in melee, and in PM, marth can cover this hole by dashing immediately because he has an excellent dash, ike does not have this. i could find no tools on the character to circumvent this hole. instead, i played him like i play melee zelda, and i spent the majority of my matches not jumping. this is not a good place to be in this game. for obvious reasons, characters with low traction or slow dashes/grabs aren't as good as exploiting this hole, so maybe ike can do better in these matches where his fatal flaw is less exploitable. in a blind and varied bracket, ike will lose to it.

2. jumping- this is less obvious even for good players, but ike has no fast moves out of a jump. it's very easy to space a low lag attack on his shield, wait for him to jump, and hit him after the jump but before his attack can threaten you. this window is not particularly small in a relative sense. i don't think i have to go into it with much more depth than that so i'll just provide an example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynjeIlBAIGM&t=2m20s

3. less related, but for the majority of ike's tip sword attacks, you can easily DI them away and only get hit once. this is pretty crippling to his offense, but it's not a major flaw so much as it just makes him kinda crappy.

edit: i found metroid ike vs fly amanita DDD from 3 days ago, are those the matches? DDD has a pretty bad dash so i bet that match is much more fun and interesting than any type of play that i'm suggesting. the spaced fairs here look considerably more useful.

 

[leelue]

The most confusing part of that post was the part in the signature where strongbad says to use marth against sheik

 

[Archangel]

Old Bowser was fast. New Bowser is not so much.

How was Old Bowser Fast? The Fastest I ever seen him played was on Yoshi's if you spin to the ledge and getup attack lol.

that's good for you, did you save any videos? if i can see that ike's holes can be covered instead of openly exploited, i might change my opinion of him.

i guess i'll go into some depth as to why i think ike is bad. i think ike has several holes revolving around his ability to go to the ground from the air, or vice versa to a lesser extent.

1. landing- in my testing of the character, i would stand outside of his attacking range right before he landed, the attack would miss, and then i would punish his landing or l cancel lag. you can do this to marth in melee, so i'm familiar with how to exploit this. overall, i had no problem catching him every time with the characters i played (mostly shek/marth, but also zelda, kirby, falco, falcon, others). my test punishment was GRAB, as that's most likely the punish of choice. to be clear, this is a really damaging fatal flaw, it's the worst universal flaw to lose to as an excellent dashgrab is almost a fundamental requirement of a good character- the ones you'll be most likely to face in competition. in melee, and in PM, marth can cover this hole by dashing immediately because he has an excellent dash, ike does not have this. i could find no tools on the character to circumvent this hole. instead, i played him like i play melee zelda, and i spent the majority of my matches not jumping. this is not a good place to be in this game. for obvious reasons, characters with low traction or slow dashes/grabs aren't as good as exploiting this hole, so maybe ike can do better in these matches where his fatal flaw is less exploitable. in a blind and varied bracket, ike will lose to it.

2. jumping- this is less obvious even for good players, but ike has no fast moves out of a jump. it's very easy to space a low lag attack on his shield, wait for him to jump, and hit him after the jump but before his attack can threaten you. this window is not particularly small in a relative sense. i don't think i have to go into it with much more depth than that so i'll just provide an example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynjeIlBAIGM&t=2m20s

3. less related, but for the majority of ike's tip sword attacks, you can easily DI them away and only get hit once. this is pretty crippling to his offense, but it's not a major flaw so much as it just makes him kinda crappy.

edit: i found metroid ike vs fly amanita DDD from 3 days ago, are those the matches? DDD has a pretty bad dash so i bet that match is much more fun and interesting than any type of play that i'm suggesting. the spaced fairs here look considerably more useful.

Seems like you tested Ike the same way I did initially. Not saying I disagree with any of your points but Ike...for some unknown reason seems to suck whenever you first play him(especially if it's against a decent-good player). Then he just gets better and better.....it's Bizarre as hell....

Anyways...I do think one major hole in Ike is just bringing the fire to his ***.(pressure). He can't handle the pressure at all and he gets frozen in shield against pressure characters(which will worsen as shields become more like Melee shields). Ike on the other hand has massive range advantages and if you can play patiently and look to exploit opponents or sometimes create openings Ike isn't too bad at all. Some of his attack just do...too much damage and have too much knockback. I'd Honestly be for nerfing his fsmash in exchange for making his nair faster. Think that would be a fair trade.

 

[Deleted member]

Anyways...I do think one major hole in Ike is just bringing the fire to his ***.(pressure). He can't handle the pressure at all and he gets frozen in shield against pressure characters(which will worsen as shields become more like Melee shields). Ike on the other hand has massive range advantages and if you can play patiently and look to exploit opponents or sometimes create openings Ike isn't too bad at all. Some of his attack just do...too much damage and have too much knockback. I'd Honestly be for nerfing his fsmash in exchange for making his nair faster. Think that would be a fair trade.

i thought about that too, but the 2nd point isn't as bad because you can simply not take the bait of the spaced attack on shield and WD back OOS. you forfeit a little stage position but it's better than getting wrecked. that said, it's still a weakness because ven good players are going to do it and they'll lose to it.

don't get me wrong, i don't think ike is all bad, he has some very good stuff. but in a game where they're trying to make every character viable, you should have those fatal flaws cut out in some way or another, "bad" is a relative term and it fits ike well.

to be clear, i think marth is CLEARLY better than ike, and i consider marth to be super mediocre average in this game.

 

[Archangel]

i thought about that too, but the 2nd point isn't as bad because you can simply not take the bait of the spaced attack on shield and WD back OOS. you forfeit a little stage position but it's better than getting wrecked. that said, it's still a weakness because ven good players are going to do it and they'll lose to it.

don't get me wrong, i don't think ike is all bad, he has some very good stuff. but in a game where they're trying to make every character viable, you should have those fatal flaws cut out in some way or another, "bad" is a relative term and it fits ike well.

to be clear, i think marth is CLEARLY better than ike, and i consider marth to be super mediocre average in this game.

Weird. I actually think Ike has better Match-up's overall

He has more threat than Marth while being overall easier to exploit...I think you should invest in some Ftilting btw...why is there no endlag on the ftilt?...the hell....


If you think Ike is bad and Marth is super mediocre...i'm interested in hearing how you feel about the whole cast? Who is 'above average' or 'good'?

 

[ELI-mination]

http://www.justin.tv/freesaltines
Streaming some friendlies if anyone wants to watch

 

[Shadic]

Gameclucks has more entrants for P:M than Melee for Singles and Doubles, and Brawl was cancelled.

Hype.

 

[metroid1117]

1. landing- in my testing of the character, i would stand outside of his attacking range right before he landed, the attack would miss, and then i would punish his landing or l cancel lag. you can do this to marth in melee, so i'm familiar with how to exploit this. overall, i had no problem catching him every time with the characters i played (mostly shek/marth, but also zelda, kirby, falco, falcon, others). my test punishment was GRAB, as that's most likely the punish of choice. to be clear, this is a really damaging fatal flaw, it's the worst universal flaw to lose to as an excellent dashgrab is almost a fundamental requirement of a good character- the ones you'll be most likely to face in competition. in melee, and in PM, marth can cover this hole by dashing immediately because he has an excellent dash, ike does not have this. i could find no tools on the character to circumvent this hole. instead, i played him like i play melee zelda, and i spent the majority of my matches not jumping. this is not a good place to be in this game. for obvious reasons, characters with low traction or slow dashes/grabs aren't as good as exploiting this hole, so maybe ike can do better in these matches where his fatal flaw is less exploitable. in a blind and varied bracket, ike will lose to it.

2. jumping- this is less obvious even for good players, but ike has no fast moves out of a jump. it's very easy to space a low lag attack on his shield, wait for him to jump, and hit him after the jump but before his attack can threaten you. this window is not particularly small in a relative sense. i don't think i have to go into it with much more depth than that so i'll just provide an example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynjeIlBAIGM&t=2m20s

3. less related, but for the majority of ike's tip sword attacks, you can easily DI them away and only get hit once. this is pretty crippling to his offense, but it's not a major flaw so much as it just makes him kinda crappy.

edit: i found metroid ike vs fly amanita DDD from 3 days ago, are those the matches? DDD has a pretty bad dash so i bet that match is much more fun and interesting than any type of play that i'm suggesting. the spaced fairs here look considerably more useful.

1 and 2 are very good points that I totally agree with. I found them to be especially apparent the first time I played Kels' Fox, I got destroyed really badly because I didn't know how to space against it. I still had the same problem the next time we played, but I think I only won that game because I was able to punish Kels more efficiently. The same was the case with my set against Lucien (except I won that set); again, I felt like the majority of the time, I was just getting baited and punished. I'm not entirely sure if that's my problem as a player (Kels and Lucien are definitely leagues above me in Melee) or Ike's glaring weaknesses as a character, but it's most likely a combination of both. I agree that those weaknesses are apparent, but I don't think they make Ike a "bad" character when compared to the rest of the cast.

With regards to 3, DI'ing away on NAir would set up for a QD turnaround -> BAir at mid %s but I see what you're talking about. Ike definitely can't combo when people DI on stuff like FAir or BAir, but from my experience, that usually puts people in such bad positions where you can limit their options enough to hit them again.

And yes, those are the matches. The spaced FAirs prevented me from getting grabbed, but I'm pretty sure I could've gotten hit by an FTilt.

EDIT:

Gameclucks has more entrants for P:M than Melee for Singles and Doubles, and Brawl was cancelled.

Hype.

That's great news, Shadic! (Just to avoid the Brawl hate, I'm not referring to Brawl being canceled.)

 

[Deleted member]

i like how melee link should have both of these problems, but his nair covers them both really well

 

[GP&B]

And a good OoS UpB, which Ike also lacks.

But mostly Link's damn Nair. I love it.

 

[metroid1117]

Personally, I love the way Ike's NAir is and have changed my control scheme to use it properly. I would be extremely sad if it was replaced with a sex kick as a solution to the problems mentioned above.

 

[Oneupsalesman]

Bowser is so much fun in this game. I mean, you really can't get ANYTHING out of his wavedash from my experience, but he's so freaking powerful that it doesn't really matter.

 

[MaxThunder]

wavedashing with bowser is pretty fun too, though...

 

[Vaerix]

To comment on Bowser-related things, he's not as fast as Melee Bowser, true, but he's a different kind of fast, it seems. Cancelling down-B at any point before the apex is pretty good for getting into the air more quickly and higher than most jumping. Though, he's still a big freaking target, so there's that. Nair and crawl armor I've found to be pretty helpful to get out of some sticky situations. For others, well, there's fortress, haha.

 

[standardtoaster]

Melee bowser was fast?

 

[Shadic]

P:M Bowser is no slower than Melee Bowser.

 

[KingBlaze777]

I'm still trying to figure out how a dragon/turtle hybrid that weighs more than two SUV's combined can be called "fast" in a game where Sonic "The fastes thing alive that isn't The Flash" is in it.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Nobody's calling him fast. They were just saying he's not any slower than he was in melee. Which he isn't.

Also. Ike does have a fast option in the air- bair. Hitbox comes out on frame 7 iirc. But it only goes so far since the hitbox is out for so short a time, and is only behind him/inside him. So I guess it makes more sense to say that ike has no anti-pressure options in the air. But I think even uair comes out like frame 9, so saying he has no fast options is a tiny bit inaccurate.

 

[Sethlon]

I'm still trying to figure out how a dragon/turtle hybrid that weighs more than two SUV's combined can be called "fast" in a game where Sonic "The fastes thing alive that isn't The Flash" is in it.

Dragon tortoise!

 

[`dazrin]

Bowser is the same speed. Ike isn't getting a sexkick, just limit the QDWJ. Ike has been placing extremely well in tournaments (it's early on in the metagame, but still- it says something, considering we have some degree of melee/brawl metagame to go off of.)

Gameclucks Project M tournament results thread will be up shortly, as well as the videos, depending on when Shadic feels like uploading them [Which will be as soon as possible, RIGHT, SHADIC??!]

FYI:
I changed my name from `daze to `dazrin because my real name is dazrin, (everyone calls me "daz," though) and when I re-made my account on swf I wasn't aware that there was already another person named daze in BC, and daze has been my alias for awhile. Even though my tag was supposed to be pronounced as "da-zay" because in elementary school all the girls called me dazzy, and so I made my alias as daz`e, but people online kept pronouncing it as daze, so I just made my tag `daze, instead. But yeah, so I go by `dazrin now, but just call me daz, cuz thats what everyone calls me irl.

/end coolstorybro