Project M Social Thread

[Deleted member]

to be clear, i'm not suggesting that ike should copy melee link and get a sex kick, but rather just providing a somewhat similar example for a comparison of dynamics.

i have no suggestions for how to actually fix ike, i just know why he's bad. and he is bad.

 

[ClinkStryphart]

From what I've seen first hand is majority of my friends love this game. I only have one friend who has thing about the L-cancel thing which I wont bring into topic but alas hes one of those types who you try to say their thinking is wrong and they just challenge you back. Hes cool to hang with and wish he would play this more but hes consistent of playing a dead hack of this game aka B+. Again trying to tell him that is like talking to a brick wall.

Me personally on my thoughts I love this game because it gives everyone a chance. No character is mismatched poorly from what I've played so far. Even my Newb friend likes it and spend hours playing it.

Overall again I would say majority probably 6/7 of my friends like it. I still am trying to convert the stubborn one to play this.

 

[`dazrin]

Every brawl player I've played with loves this game. No idea why those friends do not.

Also nice pool for FC, Monk. Looks like you'll be using your time playing PM mostly

-I feel that Melee definitely feels a lot more sharp than P:M does in 2.1. It feels more difficult to transition from PM -> Melee than it does Melee -> PM because of some PM specific ATs that exist like RAR-dashing just to name one.

I always feel like I love the melee-feel way more when I play melee for long periods of time, but I almost seem to feel the same way vice-versa, playing PM for an extended period of time. But going straight from Melee to PM makes PM feel kind of sluggish at first, and going from PM to melee feels hard to short-hop at first, but its only a matter of seconds before I adjust.

 

[Strong Badam]

melee sucks PM for life

 

[RaphaelRobo]

Strong Bad and Yeroc are in the same pool. It'll be like a PMBR showdown, except without the PM.

I think Melee feels a lot smoother than PM. Both games are a lot of fun, but it's a noticeable difference.

Umbreon, are you trying to have a tier list discussion in this topic? If you are, then Leffen's probably going to show up any minute now telling you that you're stupid and Ike is great at parrying.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Every brawl player I've played with loves this game. No idea why those friends do not.

Smashchu's propaganda is the go-to code for Not-Good-Enough-to-play-competitively-but-aware-enough-to-complain-about-it type Brawl players.

 

[metroid1117]

Umbreon, are you trying to have a tier list discussion in this topic? If you are, then Leffen's probably going to show up any minute now telling you that you're stupid and Ike is great at parrying.

Unless his opinion of Ike has changed since the last time I heard, Leffen also thinks Ike is bad.

For the record, I think Melee feels smoother than Project M, especially when I try to wavedash. Then again, I primarily played Melee before playing Project M, so I'm biased.

Which character do you guys think is going to win FC? We were talking about it on the IRC - I think Hungrybox is going to take first and Kage will take second. (No offense intended, Kage. I'd be extremely happy if you proved me wrong.)

 

[Johnknight1]

I've played Project M quite a bit with my brother (he's a Melee Marth main). For some reason he perceives everything as "easier to do" in Project M with Marth vs. Melee.

I'm the opposite. Perhaps I've used Fox for too long (5 years), and I'm over-exaggerating the differences. Perhaps it's that I haven't tried to adjust. Some movements feel "different." However, it's probably the fact I hate the awful sound effects, voice acting, and noises Fox has in Brawl. His voice actor sounds like a little boy, his physical attacks all sound freaking stupid and weak, and some of grunts are random noises instead of actual grunts. It's a freaking travesty. I need to freaking mod Fox's SFX and voice ASAP.

Also, going off how this seems to be transitioning into tier discussion, I see a lot of different opinions on how good/bad Luigi is. I've seen him on tier lists (of people who I think are trustworthy) go from bottom tier to top tier. I kinda of gauge him (with my limited playing) to be more of the latter, but I would like to hear more from different people about Luigi.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

Unless his opinion of Ike has changed since the last time I heard, Leffen also thinks Ike is bad.

For the record, I think Melee feels smoother than Project M, especially when I try to wavedash. Then again, I primarily played Melee before playing Project M, so I'm biased.

Which character do you guys think is going to win FC? We were talking about it on the IRC - I think Hungrybox is going to take first and Kage will take second. (No offense intended, Kage. I'd be extremely happy if you proved me wrong.)

Is Mango not entering PM?

I think top 3 is going to be Mango, Hbox, Kage, in no particular order. I'd like to think PM Ganon will give Kage a better chance of beating them. I think this tournament will show what Kage would be capable of if Ganon were top tier in Melee.

Personally, I have a hard time imagining Ike being bad, simply because of his results. He has some weaknesses, like the ones Umbreon mentioned, but he seems to be able to cover them up. I haven't quite worked out how he does it, but I don't think he's as bad a character as Umbreon says. Maybe once the metagame develops his results won't be anywhere near as good, but I still don't think he'll be a bad character.

 

[`dazrin]

Most people I've talked to say that spacies are much easier to use in ProjectM.

I agree with that statement because of the easier short-hopping, and the 1 frame mommentum delay giving you some leeway.

It's different at first, but when you adjust, you'll realize that space animals MOSTLY do the same thing and its a bit easier to control. That's been the general consensus as far as I know.

 

[Strong Badam]

how would a momentum delay give you leeway

 

[Johnknight1]

@ dazrin
The adjustment isn't that hard (maybe I wasn't clear enough), but I kinda lack the want to adjust. Fox oddly enough actually feels quite stronger. I feel combos are easier, spacing is easier, and pulling off techniques are easier.

Spoiler

I still can't SHDL, grrhhh...

I've actually been maining Ness. Despite the fact I think Ness is towards the bottom of the barrel of the tiers, he is too fun for me to put down. Plus, I always wanted to main Ness in a smash game, because I just love everything about Ness, all the "pluses" of his play style in each smash game, and how positively represented those are in Project M.

@ metroid (you life sucking Ike main you!)
I actually am gonna disagree, and go with Kage. I think that "drive" to show that he could win with a top tier Ganon is gonna push him over the top.

 

[DMG]

There's no way Luigi is top tier. He might be improved on from Melee (have no idea I don't ****in play Luigi who does?), but there are too many characters who would still beat him solidly.

 

[`dazrin]

@strongbad
I dunno, I'm just spitting out what the general consensus tells me. They say they feel easier for some reason, and they think it could be the extra frame..? I personally have no idea.

@Johnknight1
SHDL is hella easy in pm. lol
But yeah, if you dont want to adjust, then you won't. Lol
And ness is soooo annoying to play against. PK FIRE! DOWN THROW! bair.
His recovery is free, though. And he's super easy to shut down if you stay out of his pk fire and keep him out with projectiles. He's got like no approach except for pk fire and pivot grabs or whatever, lol. At least, that's what I see from my experience playing against quite a few Ness mains (or former Ness mains).

 

[Kink-Link5]

how would a momentum delay give you leeway

A frame with no momentum changing for the first frame after jumpsquat is over gives an extra frame of leeway for wavedashing, for starters.

 

[DMG]

If your jump action is delayed by 1 frame, but this also happens with your airdodge action, how is it easier?

 

[`dazrin]

Yeah, the thing is that ALL momentum is delayed by 1 frame, so it might not matter, but I dunno it might feel a bit slower as a result and make it feel easier? :/ I have no idea.

I personally think its a different issue entirely. Something is up with the physics in 2.1, and I can't put my finger on what it exactly is. But, I do know that without it, things *would* feel much more melee.

 

[Kink-Link5]

If your jump action is delayed by 1 frame, but this also happens with your airdodge action, how is it easier?

The speed of an action has nothing to do with the input window for it, and jumps are not delayed by one frame. I'm not really sure what you mean honestly.

 

[metroid1117]

Is Mango not entering PM?.

Hungrybox said in the FC thread that Mango backed out =/. He's going to The Big House 2 in October though, so I hope he'll win the PM tournament there with some Brawl newcomer that hasn't seen major success (I'm looking at you, Charizard).

Personally, I have a hard time imagining Ike being bad, simply because of his results. He has some weaknesses, like the ones Umbreon mentioned, but he seems to be able to cover them up. I haven't quite worked out how he does it, but I don't think he's as bad a character as Umbreon says. Maybe once the metagame develops his results won't be anywhere near as good, but I still don't think he'll be a bad character.

I think, like what DrinkingFood said a page or so back, it's because people don't know how to exploit Ike's weaknesses well enough and he can punish mistakes very hard. Also, keep in mind that Umbreon uses the word "bad" in terms of relative strengths/weaknesses; he said that Ike has some great strengths, but compared to the rest of the P:M cast, he isn't as good. Hence, he is "bad." If I'm interpreting Umbreon correctly, then it's like when compared to the entire Melee tier list, Falcon is pretty good but he is a "bad" character at top levels of play because he has a very hard time against Fox, Falco, and Sheik. I can see Ike's tournament results becoming worse over time, but I think in the long run, Ike will as viable in the Project M metagame as Falcon is in the Melee metagame.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Every character is bad in Melee compared to Sheik. She's the sole bane of the game's lower tiers since they don't have the safe options to avoid her grab like Fox, Falco, Jigglypuff, Peach, and sorta Marth do.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

Hungrybox said in the FC thread that Mango backed out =/. He's going to The Big House 2 in October though, so I hope he'll win the PM tournament there with some Brawl newcomer that hasn't seen major success (I'm looking at you, Charizard).



I think, like what DrinkingFood said a page or so back, it's because people don't know how to exploit Ike's weaknesses well enough and he can punish mistakes very hard. Also, keep in mind that Umbreon uses the word "bad" in terms of relative strengths/weaknesses; he said that Ike has some great strengths, but compared to the rest of the P:M cast, he isn't as good. Hence, he is "bad." If I'm interpreting Umbreon correctly, then it's like when compared to the entire Melee tier list, Falcon is pretty good but he is a "bad" character at top levels of play because he has a very hard time against Fox, Falco, and Sheik. I can see Ike's tournament results becoming worse over time, but I think in the long run, Ike will as viable in the Project M metagame as Falcon is in the Melee metagame.

Oh, he meant Falcon by bad? I could see that. I was thinking he meant something more like Ganon.

 

[DMG]

The speed of an action has nothing to do with the input window for it, and jumps are not delayed by one frame. I'm not really sure what you mean honestly.

The input window doesn't seem to be getting larger, just shifted by a frame or two. The actions are being delayed, not being given a buffer window or naturally extending how large of a window you have to perform a "good" wavedash. If your window to airdodge is 1-2 frames as you leave the ground, in P:M it's not magically 3-4. If it is, then that's silly. It certainly doesn't feel that way.

And are you sure Jumps aren't being delayed? I mean I'd count that under movement/physics, along with airdodging. I mean I don't know for sure I'm guessing they both do, maybe not.

 

[Strong Badam]

actions are not "delayed"
jumps are not affected by 1 frame physics
air dodges are because they happen to function with momentum commands on frame 1

 

[Izzmo]

Plese correct me if I'm wrong, but afaik you leave the ground the same frame you would in melee, whereas the upwards momentum hits a frame late. then you airdodge instantly but, again, gain momentum a frame later. Since you can airdodge before gaining the upwards momentum, because you are in the air, a complete wavedash takes 1 frame more than it would in melee. You can start inputting the AD on the same frame as in melee, you just hang a little longer in the air. Additionally, you're not as far from the ground when ADing a frame or two later than in Melee.


On the notion of Spacies being easier: The only stuff i noticed that may be significant is that SHDL is easier and I don't **** up as much when doing (accidentally or not) a shine turnaround. Both are things that I don't think are that important to fix. Other than that they feel pretty much the same.

 

[KingBlaze777]

he's super easy to shut down if you stay out of his pk fire and keep him out with projectiles. He's got like no approach except for pk fire and pivot grabs or whatever, lol. At least, that's what I see from my experience playing against quite a few Ness mains (or former Ness mains).

You seriously haven't been RAR Bair'd in the face, have you?

If only I lived someplace near you, I'd be glad to show you how P:M Ness should be played.

On an unrelated note: I predict that Kage won't place anywhere less than top 4

 

[Archangel]

Every character is bad in Melee compared to Sheik. She's the sole bane of the game's lower tiers since they don't have the safe options to avoid her grab like Fox, Falco, Jigglypuff, Peach, and sorta Marth do.

I'm going to smack the **** out of you if you ever say that again.

 

[`dazrin]

You seriously haven't been RAR Bair'd in the face, have you?

If only I lived someplace near you, I'd be glad to show you how P:M Ness should be played.

On an unrelated note: I predict that Kage won't place anywhere less than top 4

Shots fired, Kage.

And I'd love to play a truly amazing Ness. All I've seen is being downthrown over and over again and pk fired into oblivion. And I've definitely been RAR baired before, pk fire -> dair offstage (firefoot'd is what we called it), and eaten a fair share of pkt2.

It's mainly the same thing over and over- If I just play homo using Toon Link and spam projectiles at Ness, it doesn't seem like there is a whole lot of options he has to deal with it. Then I get Ness offstage and bam, it's free; throw a single projectile at his thunderball or intercept it and laugh as he plummets to the ground. Maybe the Toon Link vs Ness MU is just really bad for Ness? :/
I guess should mention that I can dthrow CG Ness as Toon Link for while if they DI incorrectly, and can end the CG with downthrow-> upb whenever I want. I guess it doesn't matter though since Ness can dthrow CG Toon Link with incorrect DI as well and end it with a bair or bthrow when he wants to.

With that said, I'll admit that once Ness gets in on Toon Link, if you don't know how to deal with it, it's hard to do anything about being grabbed over and over, and if not, eating pk fire. The main things are:
-Getting past the slew of hitboxes Toon Link is capable of throwing out,
-Ness' recovery and how easy it is to intercept it

Ness is a solid character able to pressure opponents from midrange distances, some pretty good edgeguarding game with flash, fire, dair and bair, and of course his grab game is amazing. Its just the recovery makes him "not good" in P:M standards. If only he could have a tether like Lucas.. :/ meh, too bad it's impossible.

Sorry for going off on a tangent there, I just woke up and my brain started thinking about the gameclucks pm tournament and all the matches in it. xD

 

[Strong Badam]

Ness has good options and tools in place to where he can outplay his opponent.

He still sucks.

 

[`dazrin]

Yep. Recovery. Lol

 

[Archangel]

Ness needs new recovery or he needs to be invincible in the air when he's doing his upB. Obviously the latter is not an option.

Seriously, You can make him twice as good as lucas on stage and it won't matter because he will always be auto-bad if his recovery remains to be terrible.

 

[Deleted member]

Umbreon, are you trying to have a tier list discussion in this topic? If you are, then Leffen's probably going to show up any minute now telling you that you're stupid and Ike is great at parrying.

godlike post lol

Personally, I have a hard time imagining Ike being bad, simply because of his results. He has some weaknesses, like the ones Umbreon mentioned, but he seems to be able to cover them up. I haven't quite worked out how he does it, but I don't think he's as bad a character as Umbreon says. Maybe once the metagame develops his results won't be anywhere near as good, but I still don't think he'll be a bad character.

Ike isn't the worst character ever in any smash game or anything, but how much worse than the next character would ike have to be before he's not a viable choice? So far I think the PM team has done an excellent transformation to the cast to keep them viable, but simply because of the way the characters were designed initially they're going to have issues of some kind.

-How do you make Sonic a character that isn't totally obnoxious?
-How do you address fundamentally broken things like shines?
-How do you make a character with multiple fatal design flaws (like Ness) playable?
-Where do you even start with horribly designed characters like DDD?

I respect the PM team for having solved a lot of these problems in a subtle way that isn't even really addressed in this thread much. At this point, I'm mostly pointing out that Ike is the most exploitable by the largest portion of the cast. Ike's air to ground issue is the same as Roy's "lol crouching" or Ness's "lol recovery" or Game and Watch's "lol shield" and he just folds to it if you have any experience with proper ground control. With any of the higher level melee veterans transferring to this game, it's very obvious immediately.

That said, unlike vBrawl or some characters in melee, Ike has some tools to play around this weakness, but only to a point. In vBrawl, if your character loses to something...you just lose to that one thing and that's the end of the story, which is why so many players have issues with MK's tornado for example. PM has mechanics that let you circumvent the things that your opponent does somewhat (thus, offers players of different skill levels to distinguish themselves) with intelligence and options- until your opponent learns how to cover all of those options, which can be done to Ike with a little experience. Once your opponent knows how get you no matter what, you have no realistic options to deal with it. You can then:

1. Not jump.
2. Not play Ike.

This is not what a viable character profile looks like.

I think, like what DrinkingFood said a page or so back, it's because people don't know how to exploit Ike's weaknesses well enough and he can punish mistakes very hard. Also, keep in mind that Umbreon uses the word "bad" in terms of relative strengths/weaknesses; he said that Ike has some great strengths, but compared to the rest of the P:M cast, he isn't as good. Hence, he is "bad." If I'm interpreting Umbreon correctly, then it's like when compared to the entire Melee tier list, Falcon is pretty good but he is a "bad" character at top levels of play because he has a very hard time against Fox, Falco, and Sheik. I can see Ike's tournament results becoming worse over time, but I think in the long run, Ike will as viable in the Project M metagame as Falcon is in the Melee metagame.

You interpreted me correctly up until the character comparison. Because I consider Ike's glaring weakness a fatal one that he cannot play around, I would consider him akin to melee Bowser.

For the record, the MBR is working on a new tier list, where I'm voting Bowser to be the worst in the game because he has this exact same flaw.

 

[MaxThunder]

actions are not "delayed"
jumps are not affected by 1 frame physics
air dodges are because they happen to function with momentum commands on frame 1

Isn't the 1 frame physics thing on jumps the reason given for why falco's lasers are off?..

 

[Archangel]

Isn't the 1 frame physics thing on jumps the reason given for why falco's lasers are off?..

I remember hearing this at first too. Then someone said it was something else...and well..mass confusion followed.

 

[metroid1117]

Ike isn't the worst character ever in any smash game or anything, but how much worse than the next character would ike have to be before he's not a viable choice? So far I think the PM team has done an excellent transformation to the cast to keep them viable, but simply because of the way the characters were designed initially they're going to have issues of some kind.

-How do you make Sonic a character that isn't totally obnoxious?
-How do you address fundamentally broken things like shines?
-How do you make a character with multiple fatal design flaws (like Ness) playable?
-Where do you even start with horribly designed characters like DDD?

I respect the PM team for having solved a lot of these problems in a subtle way that isn't even really addressed in this thread much. At this point, I'm mostly pointing out that Ike is the most exploitable by the largest portion of the cast. Ike's air to ground issue is the same as Roy's "lol crouching" or Ness's "lol recovery" or Game and Watch's "lol shield" and he just folds to it if you have any experience with proper ground control. With any of the higher level melee veterans transferring to this game, it's very obvious immediately.

That said, unlike vBrawl or some characters in melee, Ike has some tools to play around this weakness, but only to a point. In vBrawl, if your character loses to something...you just lose to that one thing and that's the end of the story, which is why so many players have issues with MK's tornado for example. PM has mechanics that let you circumvent the things that your opponent does somewhat (thus, offers players of different skill levels to distinguish themselves) with intelligence and options- until your opponent learns how to cover all of those options, which can be done to Ike with a little experience. Once your opponent knows how get you no matter what, you have no realistic options to deal with it. You can then:

1. Not jump.
2. Not play Ike.

This is not what a viable character profile looks like.

Interesting post, thanks for taking the time to type that out. However, what do you mean by Dedede being a "horribly designed" character?

You interpreted me correctly up until the character comparison. Because I consider Ike's glaring weakness a fatal one that he cannot play around, I would consider him akin to melee Bowser.

For the record, the MBR is working on a new tier list, where I'm voting Bowser to be the worst in the game because he has this exact same flaw.

Daaaaaaaaaaang, I would think his strengths would at least put him above Bowser. As the metagame continues to grow, I hope I can prove you wrong.

 

[kaizo13]

yea, didn't you know metroid? DDD was horribly designed, that's why the pmbr gave him a complete overhaul

 

[Deleted member]

Interesting post, thanks for taking the time to type that out. However, what do you mean by Dedede being a "horribly designed" character?

Daaaaaaaaaaang, I would think his strengths would at least put him above Bowser. As the metagame continues to grow, I hope I can prove you wrong.

obviously ike isn't as bad as melee bowser, no character in PM is as bad as melee bowser. the relative character goodness (and tiers, when they're done) are much closer together, basically the characters are relatively closer in goodness. this is a good thing. ike is just the only character immediately that stands out as bad to me. clearly bad.

DDD is probably the 3rd worst character design after ice climbers and olimar. DDD's entire character is based around how imbalanced he is. there are like 5 moves in all of vBrawl that can somewhat safely hit DDD's shield. I didn't say characters, I said MOVES. This is amplified by his chaingrab on the majority of the cast. DDD's match-ups are almost defined by his ability to chaingrab them. If your character can be chaingrabbed, you have to auto-ban all wall stages or he will infinite you. And so forth.

If you read my post about design extremes earlier in this thread, it readily applies to DDD. DDD has extremes for ground control (the type that works for brawl), extreme grab potential, extreme weight, extreme bair walling capability, and extremely bad everything else. The result is that he's just an obnoxious character: he's annoying to play against because the entire match becomes your ability to play around his "one thing" and it's annoying to play DDD because that "one thing" doesn't work on some characters, and in the end he's just annoying. Most brawl matches are this way though and that's why most people hate Brawl. Consider:

-Falco laser camping
-MK's ability to avoid danger/set-ups
-Samus's kill power
-Link's entire character

Brawl was a HORRIBLY designed game. Like, everyone knows how awful it is but they can't really explain why. Brawl has a lot of extremes that make interaction annoying or impossible, and the game doesn't offer any mechanics to use skill to play around them. 90% of the matches are decided at the character selection screen.

But we all knew Brawl was terrible. Brawl is so bad it hurts other games (melee tournaments).

 

[Rubyiris]

I love playing Ike because my region is full of *******es who suck **** at ground control.

I love fighting Ike because he is free.

Sent from my LG-VM670 using Tapatalk 2

 

[DMG]

I hate his big sword and passionate spirit

Now let's see him deal with CAPE! Muahaha

 

[Rubyiris]

Fthrow.

Sent from my LG-VM670 using Tapatalk 2

 

[crush]

Every character is bad in Melee compared to Sheik. She's the sole bane of the game's lower tiers since they don't have the safe options to avoid her grab like Fox, Falco, Jigglypuff, Peach, and sorta Marth do.

like do u even paly melee

evryone i n this thred but umbreon is ********