Project M Social Thread

[kaizo13]

still rather unlikely to get tethers to work like they did in melee.

but still i never got any replies when i asked if we could make tethers JC'able as soon as they latch on to the ledge (like in Melee) That seems far more easier to code

 

[L/A/W]

Why can't fox IAP? it's simply jumping and using phantasm right away
to my limited brawl knowledge it's not a thing thats impossible in melee, it's simply less practical due to greater land lag, punishes, etc

 

[Ulevo]

Why can't fox IAP? it's simply jumping and using phantasm right away
to my limited brawl knowledge it's not a thing thats impossible in melee

It's not that he can't, it's that there's no benefit to doing so. IAP is just abusing Phantasm's exceptionally small cool down by doing Phantasm very close to the ground, so you narrow the window for punishment down to almost nothing. Falco has next to no lag when he lands, while as Fox has plenty, so the utility on Fox's Illusion is non existent.

 

[L/A/W]

i know thats what i meant
edit: i was responding to thunderhorses post

 

[Thunderhorse+]

I've tried millions of times in both Brawl, Brawl+, and a few times in P:M to get Fox to properly IAP. I know my IAP timing, and I can almost guarantee you that if I can't do it, no one else will be able to considering I spent all of my Brawl career, hack or not, using it as my primary method of ground transportation. For one reason that I don't know, Fox simply can't. I know the timing like the back of my hand, and I have never gotten him to perform one.

An IAP isn't simply using a phantasm in the air (which is probably what you're thinking). IAPs are aerial phantasms performed at ground phantasm level. The reason why they're more punishable in Melee doesn't have anything to do with cooldown: you feel like you suffer more lag because you are not at ground level, and have to wait extra time for your character to fall to the ground in addition to the endlag. But tommorrow I will do extensive testing on IAPs in Melee, since I am far from a Melee extert. From my experience though, it seems impossible to perform a ground level aerial phantasm. But I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt that my Melee timing might be off and that's why it seems impossible.

I know Brawl Fox can't do it properly though. I can't give you a certain answer as to why though other than lol Sakurai.

 

[L/A/W]

IAn IAP isn't simply using a phantasm in the air (which is probably what you're thinking). IAPs are aerial phantasms performed at ground phantasm level. The reason why they're more punishable in Melee doesn't have anything to do with cooldown: you feel like you suffer more lag because you are not at ground level, and have to wait extra time for your character to fall to the ground in addition to the endlag.

it's still a phantasm in the air though right?
and i'm almost certain there's more cooldown in melee, in addition to characters being able to punish it faster

 

[Thunderhorse+]

it's still a phantasm in the air though right?
and i'm almost certain there's more cooldown in melee, in addition to characters being able to punish it faster

It is still an air phantasm, yes, but I don't think it can be performed as low to the ground as Brawl's. As I said, I'm going to test it thouroughly tommorrow. You might be right since I've never put nearly as much time into Melee as I have in Brawl. If the results are interesting enough, I might made a video comparison of each game's version of Fox's and Falco's IAPs.

 

[L/A/W]

cool
go for it

 

[** Ace **]

His Bair has remained as his vBrawl incarnation (most likely because it has slightly longer reach than the Melee one)

Come to think about it, his Bair in brawl have **** slow startup, it didnt have that in melee, prehaps that should be fixed to?

 

[Akuma2120]

Indeed I did forget that Link has his bomb jumps from melee now... awesome

 

[CountKaiser]

Come to think about it, his Bair in brawl have **** slow startup, it didnt have that in melee, prehaps that should be fixed to?

What frame did it come out in Melee?

Because according to the Falco thread on the Falco character boards, it comes out frame 4 in brawl.

 

[Revven]

Count, I believe he was quoting me when I was talking about Ganondorf.

 

[Sneak8288]

Got my dazzle today just waiting on some cables... Hopefully i'll be streaming this weekend.

 

[.Marik]

Got my dazzle today just waiting on some cables... Hopefully i'll be streaming this weekend.

This is relevant to my interests.

 

[pwned-by-the-poob]

I don't know if this is just me or not but is it possible to make jumps for certain characters come out at an earlier frame? Because jumps for brawl(and P:M) come out slower than they do in melee. I think this is the reason why people who didn't really wavedash in melee think it's easier in P:M.

Also, the after lag of charizard's down throw and down smash is way too long. especially his down smash. It just doesn't seem powerful enough to be as laggy as it is. His f-smash has basically the same lag as his d-smash. Charizard is probably not the biggest concern at the moment though. lol

 

[shanus]

I don't know if this is just me or not but is it possible to make jumps for certain characters come out at an earlier frame? Because jumps for brawl(and P:M) come out slower than they do in melee. I think this is the reason why people who didn't really wavedash in melee think it's easier in P:M.

Also, the after lag of charizard's down throw and down smash is way too long. especially his down smash. It just doesn't seem powerful enough to be as laggy as it is. His f-smash has basically the same lag as his d-smash. Charizard is probably not the biggest concern at the moment though. lol

jumpstart frames were made to match melee.....

 

[pwned-by-the-poob]

jumpstart frames were made to match melee.....

Oh... well it still seems slower than melee's. Especially with fox. it's probably just me though.

 

[shanus]

Oh... well it still seems slower than melee's. Especially with fox. it's probably just me though.

it matches as confirmed by frame advance

 

[pwned-by-the-poob]

it matches as confirmed by frame advance

Actually i just tried it out and i exaggerated the difference earlier. Melee is barely faster though because you can press jump and l for wavedashing almost simultaneously in melee, it doesn't work like that in brawl. Whatever this isn't something worth talking about any longer...

well since i have your attention i'm gonna post some of the ideas i've thought of for P:M.

one idea is that squirtle has a custom moonwalk where he's inside of his shell. done the same way as any other moonwalk
also while he's in side-b, would it be possible to make it where if he turns around in side-b he does a shellshift? i think that would be a unique alternative to a simple jump cancel or something

another thing(this sounds absolutely crazy but i think it's cool) is missile cancelling with snakes side-b. haha. might be a little crazy though, just the thought of snake missile cancelling is weird.

also what about jump cancelling the lag for ness' pkt1 AFTER IT HITS and/or make it so its hitbox sends people more horizontally. This would make some cool combos like up throw to pkt1 at low percent and when it hits jc to wavedash and follow it up. But find a way to make it not infinite. I only thought of this because lucas got hugely buffed so i think ness should too. Unless he's already as good as lucas

Like i said before, some of these ideas might be going too far. But my goal in these is for more technical, faster, and cooler gameplay

 

[ruhtraeel]

General question here...

Are you guys aiming for the best melee characters in brawl to be changed back to the exact way they were in melee, and the worst melee characters to retain some of the better abilities they had in brawl?

 

[Shadic]

Yes we are.

 

[ruhtraeel]

Yes we are.

That's what I wanted to hear :-)

Although Gimpy might not be happy if melee Bowser is changed, heh.




I look forward to pitting my melee Falco against a pro-brawler's Metaknight.

Shine to wavedash to D-air SHFFL to u-tilt and on is teh secks.




Sigh... If only we could get Mango, Zhu, Tang, SS, HMW, and the rest to test it out for balancing.

 

[Handorin]

Lol. I sense some west coast bias.

 

[ruhtraeel]

Lol. I sense some west coast bias.

Sigh...fine.

Other people that would be good to test: PC Chris, Ken & Isai (If they still played), M2K, Forward, Chu, Armada, etc etc.

I'm in Canada, so it doesn't really apply anyways, just that the west coast ones are usually lighting it up. And east coast has waffles and phil as commentators.

And also WOMBO COMBO.

If the lead developer Shanus is the one that made "Flipping the bird", at least he's ok :-p





Was it that hard, sliq?

 

[Handorin]

Inb4sliqnamesearches

I'll probably get a live stream up this weekend full of the midsouth's finest.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

It'll be great to see a new group try its hand at P:M streams.

Maybe we'll see some new styles and characters. Hype.

 

[Handorin]

I've put a stream up before. I think it was up till 7 am. Lol.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Oh? Must've missed that.

Now I just feel silly. >.>

 

[ruhtraeel]

Alright, a few things came to mind after I watched some demo vids of Falco, Fox and Falcon.

Will the characters feel almost exactly the same as in melee? I mean, will it be harder to SH with Fox than with Falco, like in Melee?

Also, a few things stood out to me.

1. Falco's reflector seems to not hit them very high, or as high as they did in melee. That might just be me though, cause I think Brawl characters were bigger than Melee characters, and it might be because of DI.

2. Falco's F-Smash and B-air in the ditto had some peculiar trajectories...?

3. LACK OF KNEES FROM THE FALCON!

Good videos, though.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Knockback on attacks in general hasn't really been worked on in depth yet. First we're trying to get character physics done. After that, we've gotta deal with stage size, stage BOUNDARIES, hitstun, weight, and...knockback and hitbox sizes (no particular order).


There are actually many places to start, but all of these variables seem dependent on each other. I'm a little confused on how exactly we're going to get it done myself. But we've got Magus, who's pretty much a fountain of knowledge, so somehow it'll get done ^_^

 

[kaizo13]

trying not to be skeptical here but......is there a possibility of something not being accurate even after being confirmed by frame advance as previously stated by Shanus?

like even if the frame data is the same, will it "feel" the same? (thinking about Fox's movement for the most part..)

wanna see that upgrav in action T^T

 

[Dark Sonic]

If we can accurately replicate the things that I've said (getting one gets them all.), then we'll just need to wait for landing detection (IIRC Y.S. is working on it).

With that, it should feel EXACTLY like melee. The only difference would be graphics and sounds at that point (well, we're still missing some stages battlefield's bottom is shaped differently). Oh, and we'll have to adjust the camera at some point (bigger characters+proportionately bigger stages+more zoomed out and dynamic camera=smaller characters with dynamic camera! )

That's going to take a while though.

 

[shanus]

trying not to be skeptical here but......is there a possibility of something not being accurate even after being confirmed by frame advance as previously stated by Shanus?

like even if the frame data is the same, will it "feel" the same? (thinking about Fox's movement for the most part..)

wanna see that upgrav in action T^T

The transferrable 100% feel will likely never be possible unless we get super precise landing detection editing. However, you have to remember that the collision and physics engine used in brawl is Havoc, and completely different than melee so its unlikely that the feel will ever be 100% true to melee. However, timing, precision, and gameplay will be extremely transferrable and I have been amazed at the speed of which melee players can transition between the two. What is even more exciting is that we have some pure brawl players who have been able to transfer their newfound skills into melee now as well, with a lot of success.

This should give you an idea on how the two play and feel similar, but obviously not identical.

 

[Dark Sonic]

I still think that if we do get that super precise landing detection and all those other adjustments then it will feel exactly like melee as far as moving around goes. SFX and GFX might "feel" off though (especially during combos.)

But hey, maybe there's just some difference between the physics engines that I'm not really understanding, so meh.


Shanus is a god btw.

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

is there anything that sadly will never be able to be replicated, gameplay wise?
and some things that we will choose not to put in? (how buffer worked in Melee?)
if so, what?

 

[Rikana]

That's one them - Melee's buffer system - that won't be able to get in Project M. There will be some things that may be impossible to code as well such as wall grapples (at the moment it seems impossible at least) and Samus' extension and homing grabs, and Link's Melee bomb recovery (it explodes on contact with body and not the weapon so Link still somewhat has a bomb recovery). That's all I can think of so far off the top of my head.

 

[pwned-by-the-poob]

That's one them - Melee's buffer system - that won't be able to get in Project M. There will be some things that may be impossible to code as well such as wall grapples (at the moment it seems impossible at least) and Samus' extension and homing grabs, and Link's Melee bomb recovery (it explodes on contact with body and not the weapon so Link still somewhat has a bomb recovery). That's all I can think of so far off the top of my head.

Link can bomb recover just fine. it doesn't gain any vertical distance at really low % though.

 

[shanus]

Link can bomb recover just fine. it doesn't gain any vertical distance at really low % though.

he's saying its not the same as meleee though where you can hit your own bomb hurtbox

 

[pwned-by-the-poob]

he's saying its not the same as meleee though where you can hit your own bomb hurtbox

In my opinion it's still just as effective. and if it actually is slightly worse why not just give bombs more knockback? They already have low knockback anyways so that would make 2 things better

how effective something is isn't really an opinion though...

 

[ValTroX]

landing detection is different per character right Shanus? I mean, it should be a code in each fighter.pac, not a code in general