Project M Social Thread

[Jonny Westside]

Omfg...I wanted to see that Ike vs Wolf GFs :/ Is there seriously no footage of that tournament anywhere?

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

Assuming there isn't an external speed multiplier on the grabs, standing grabs frame 9, dash grabs frame 10, and pivot grab frame 13.

Well i asked b/c in melee her standing grab started on frame 12 and her dash grab also started on frame 12. While in brawl her standing grab started on 12 her dash grab started on 11 and her pivot grab starts on 14

So i hope u r right that its frame 9 now, b/c thats still not great but at least its usable

 

[leelue]

I have two questions

1) Why are stage transformations grounds for a stage becoming a counterpick as opposed to a neutral? Strongbad and I were at odds about this before in regards to Halberd since I don't see anything wrong with the stage (except for the bowl on the sides of the ship reminding me of FD:B). He and I use different interpretations of the word "neutral".

2) What is the tradeoff between dash grabs and JCgrabs

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

Jc grabs r the same as standing grabs, its just the way to do a standing grab out of a dash. The reason people do jc grabs is b/c some characters have trash running grabs like pika or bowser who fall over when they dash grab and r easily punshed for it. So jc grabs usually if not always have less lag and r safer then dash grabs. (Not saying all dash grabs r bad)

 

[leelue]

I was asking for a tradeoff, as in "is there any upside to the majority of dash grabs considering the fact that standing grabs have less startup and less lag"

 

[Revven]

With some characters, their dash grab has more range than their standing grab. There's also a distinct trade-off in distance as well as noted by DK's dash grab distance covered vs his JC grab. Not everybody has the same trade-off though, so... there's no "universal" trade-off that could be applied to everybody, mr. Hyperleeceptionlue

 

[leelue]

That reminds me of Apu's last name.

I was hoping there would be some universal tradeoff, akin to "well in order to get the grab bubble to extend as far as it does from a dash grab on frame X, you have to be a few scalars over to compensate and this would require you to be running for an additional Y frames, varying from character to character."

Something like that, I suppose

 

[standardtoaster]

Almost every dash grab I've seen has more end lag to compensate for the larger range. That's how it is in melee, at least.

 

[leelue]

Almost every dash grab I've seen has more end lag to compensate for the larger range. That's how it is in melee, at least.

This is the part that I was unsure of.

 

[GP&B]

With some characters, the difference is almost negligible like with Link and T. Link. Wario, on the other hand, has an especially unique bash grab. I think Samus got shorter range with lower startup.

 

[ph00tbag]

Samus's dash grab has less range, but significantly less start-up, as well as a more subtle animation, and it doesn't stay out anywhere near as long.

I feel like P:M Sami won't really use her standing grab as much as pivot and dash grabs.

 

[Sneak8288]

same with Yoshi right? I think yoshi had a better dash grab because of the range

 

[MaxThunder]

Hm... one thing i would find interesting is if a PMBR who either worked on charizard or have played him a lot records a match or something...

anyways... i'm gonna go sleep now...

 

[hotdogturtle]

Wario probably has the most important JC grab...

 

[Metà]

but his dash grab is so cool!

 

[MonkUnit]

1) Why are stage transformations grounds for a stage becoming a counterpick as opposed to a neutral? Strongbad and I were at odds about this before in regards to Halberd since I don't see anything wrong with the stage (except for the bowl on the sides of the ship reminding me of FD:B). He and I use different interpretations of the word "neutral".

I believe most people would consider any stage with hazards to not be a neutral. Hazards being things like Halberd's lasers and not Yoshi's Island: Brawl flyguys.

To me, the definition of a neutral stage is a stage being player vs. player only and not player vs. player vs. hazards. That's why stages like BF, SV, FD, etc. are neutral - they don't change forms drastically if at all, they don't have hazards, etc.

Stages like PS1, Halberd, Dracula's Castle, etc. are counterpicks because the stage drastically changes, has hazards, or are very large compared to neutrals.

 

[iLink]

I think Zelda and Wario are the only characters I wouldn't jc grab with all the time.

Also we are planning on running a p:m tourney soon and we don't want to overwhelm some people with a huge stagelist. This is what I got:

Starters:
Battlefield
Dreamland
Final Destination
Fountain of Dreams
Pokemon Stadium 2
Smashville
Yoshi's Story (Melee)

CP:
Dracula's Castle
Green Hill Zone
Metal Cavern
Pokemon Stadium 1
Rumble Falls
Warioware Inc.
Yoshi's Island (Brawl)

Any suggestions?

 

[MonkUnit]

FoD should be singles only. Dracula's Castle should be teams only.

 

[Jonny Westside]

FoD should be teams only. I also think that Dracula's Castle should be teams only.

A while back I heard some buzz around Dracula's Castle not "lagging" anymore..? Care to elaborate on that? o.O

 

[iLink]

FoD should be teams only. I also think that Dracula's Castle should be teams only.

I can see Dracula's castle being teams only, but FoD?

 

[MonkUnit]

I meant Singles only. Sorry about that.

 

[leelue]

because the stage drastically changes

If halberd had no hazards, considering that its transformations (at least the first one) are telegraphed and nonrandom (It's what, 1:20 into the match?), why would the drastic change relegate it to counterpick status?
This is the question I am trying to get answered: why is the existence of a transformation that is nonrandom, that doesn't interfere with the gameplay*, and that is clearly advertised such as the first trip onto the ship on halberd an issue? In my experience, the problems anybody has with the stage are:

The bowl on the sides
The hazards
The transition off of the ship

If the hazards were eliminated completely and if the second transition was marked**/removed, would that be enough to classify it as a neutral stage?

* It doesn't interfere with me, at least. I know when it's coming every time and play with that knowledge. I assume its the same for others.
**A cool way to do that would be to have the "bomb" on the stage set off the launch, although my first choice would be to just have it frozen on the ship once it lands.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

the hell? i was calling your reasoning ********. you don't go around banning stages/changing them to CP because of how it affects characters, otherwise you're just playing favorites.

Oh. In that case, I agree it isn't the greatest reason. What I was trying to say is I feel like the random movement of the platforms (I assume it's random, because I haven't been able to work out a pattern for it) makes the stage feel a lot less of a starter than it appears. The unexpected movement of the platforms causes me a lot of problems, I don't know about anyone else. The fact is, there are a lot of times when I've gone onto a platform to dodge an attack, and it's moved me into the attack. Or I've gone to platformdash, and the platform moves, I air dodge, and my opponents KOs me for it. I feel like Ganon is affected more by this than other characters, so obviously I'm going to be biased, but I still think FoD is the least balanced of the Melee starters. I've always thought of the platforms as an indirect hazard - There's no warning, and they often cause one of the players to get hurt.

Obviously I can strike the stage, and if everyone else feels like it's fine then we can leave it. I've just always found FoD to be feel like less of a starter than GHZ. But again, I'm a Ganon main, and all my experiences are coming from that perspective. Although there's not much point maining Ganon in PM, since I can just use Ike.

 

[leelue]

unexpected movement of the platforms
moved me into the attack
I've gone to platformdash, and the platform moves, I air dodge, and my opponents KOs me for it
indirect hazard
There's no warning, and they often cause one of the players to get hurt.

Suddenly, I'm surprised FoD isn't a counterpick since everyone knows that the platforms interfere at random.

 

[`dazrin]

Get GHZ on the neutral list, damnit.
YS:m is small, has shyguys and randall- if that's neutral, then whats holding back GHZ?

Like seriously, what is it exactly that makes GHZ CP instead of neutral? Legit question here, I want to know the reasoning behind it. :S

edit: inb4cuzmovingplatform.
What about smashville then?

 

[RaphaelRobo]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the platform on GHZ is on a timer, right?

Also, I think there are two main reason's FoD is neutral - It looks similar to Battlefield, which makes you automatically connect it to that stage, so your instinct tells you it's more balanced. When the platforms move, it's part of the main stage, not something outside it, so you don't get as annoyed as you do at Randall, who isn't part of the stage body. The other reason is that the starter list for Melee is already pretty small, and there are enough people favoring a more liberal stage list that we can't really make it smaller.

 

[JediKnightTemplar]

The ability to death combo them, improved mobility to keep up with them, being able to reduce damage when spacies use projectiles, they have great tools to edgeguard them (especially Lucas). I just feel they have plenty of tools to deal with spacies. Ness and Lucas may be the new spacies lol

I disagree about reducing damage when spacies use lasers. PSI Magnet is slow enough to come out that by the time it would be useful, the spacie could just rush Ness/Lucas and **** them with aerials and/or shine. That being said though they do have plenty of tools and I would say it's about an even match up.

 

[Stevo]

Yoshi Story is the best stage from melee.

Randall shenanigans, Shyguys to kill, Scarjumping stuff, hard to stall someone out, etc.

it should be a "neutral" based solely on awesomeness.

 

[iLink]

Admittedly I'm not super fond of FoD platforms and I could see a reason to argue that GHZ should take its place as a neutral.

 

[Metà]

Speaking of scar-jumping, you can now do it without an aerial =D

 

[standardtoaster]

Get GHZ on the neutral list, damnit.
YS:m is small, has shyguys and randall- if that's neutral, then whats holding back GHZ?

Like seriously, what is it exactly that makes GHZ CP instead of neutral? Legit question here, I want to know the reasoning behind it. :S

edit: inb4cuzmovingplatform.
What about smashville then?

YS:M doesn't have shyguys in Project M.

 

[`dazrin]

Okay, lol i guess i didn't notice, and that makes it better. But that still doesn't answer why people don't view GHZ as a neutral.

:S

 

[GunBlaze]

Okay, lol i guess i didn't notice, and that makes it better. But that still doesn't answer why people don't view GHZ as a neutral.

:S

Dat size. 'Nuff said.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

Looks like I'm alone in placing Dreamland 64 in CP due to it's large size and large blast zones....... whatever.

 

[hotdogturtle]

Okay, lol i guess i didn't notice, and that makes it better. But that still doesn't answer why people don't view GHZ as a neutral.

:S

The main reason I can think that some people might not view it as neutral is because the way the platform moves, (at its peak) it makes the fighting area pretty vertically tall, which is usually a bad thing for balance (same reason why vertical platform layouts are inferior to horizontal ones like "BF style").

As for whether that should truly push it out of starter range, that depends on what other stages people decide to use to fill it out. It seems like most people are using a 9 stage list, but with disagreements over which 9 stages.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

Personally, I like this list:

Battlefield
Dreamland 64
Final Destination
Yoshi's Story (Melee)
Pokemon Stadium 2
Smashville
Green Hill Zone

It seems to me like everyone agrees on BF, FD, Smashville, and PS2.

 

[`dazrin]

Looks like I'm alone in placing Dreamland 64 in CP due to it's large size and large blast zones....... whatever.

Naw, I'm with you on that one. D3 and charizard have such a huge advantage there.. As in they dont die until 250% assuming you DI correctly.
If dreamland is being left in, then there is no reason why SSE jungle or rumble falls isn't being included. I say, "away with you into the CP abyss!"

And I would be fine with that stage list, raphaelrobo, but why would you cut FoD and leave in ys:m? I'd say fod is more or less the same when it comes to "neutrality"

 

[GunBlaze]

Naw, I'm with you on that one. D3 and charizard have such a huge advantage there.. As in they dont die until 250% assuming you DI correctly.
If dreamland is being left in, then there is no reason why SSE jungle or rumble falls isn't being included. I say, "away with you into the CP abyss!"

And I would be fine with that stage list, raphaelrobo, but why would you cut FoD and leave in ys:m? I'd say fod is more or less the same when it comes to "neutrality"

Well, in YS:M, the platforms are at least static.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

There's nothing random on YS. Randall is on a timer, and can be easily accounted for.

If you can't account for this, he's still only out on your side for 5 seconds out of every 20, and you have to be in the middle of an edgeguard for him to interfere, so it's going to interfere less often than FoD would, because the moving platforms in FoD are in the main part of the stage, where you're fighting.

However, the main reason is that Randall isn't random, so you can account for it while playing. Because we play with an 8 minute timer, you always know exactly where he's going to be.

If I were to cut the list down to five stage, DL64 would defnitely go. While I think it's more neutral than Rumble Falls (and maybe more than SSE Jungle, I'd have to play more on that stage to reach a decision), I think it's the least neutral of what's left. The question is, then, do you cut YS:M or GHZ? While I feel GHZ is more neutral, we'd also essentially have a list that's battlefield, FD, and three variations of FD with platforms (I view GHZ as a small FD with one platform). Three variations of FD might overpower Ganon's sideB chain grab, and while that's only one character, it's still something I'd be worried about. I'm already expecting FD to be a ban stage vs. Ganondorf.

Also, I'm sad the shy guys were taken out. I understand why, but I loved using them to keep Ganon's edgeguarding hitboxes out longer.

 

[Strong Badam]

I'm actually fairly sure that FoD's platform movements are not random in Project M. Not entirely sure.

We also didn't "remove" the Shy Guys. Keep in mind that we had to make all of these classic stages from scratch; we weren't able to add moving hurtboxes to the stage.. and I'm not so sure we want to.

also SSE:J is NOT a neutral, or even a CP in singles. way too ****ing big