Project M Social Thread

[standardtoaster]

I like post 2. Replace YI:B with GHZ IMO.

 

[`dazrin]

I think even YS:melee is debatable as a starter now. GHZ is more neutral than it, IMO. YS is just really tiny and im done with randall.

 

[standardtoaster]

But Randall is so good. :[

 

[Strong Badam]

Yoshi's Story: Melee
To differentiate from the other stages named Yoshi's Story

 

[hotdogturtle]

People have debated that YS is too small to be a starter. Just like they've debated that DL64 is too big.

Idk, maybe with the inclusion of Bowser in P:M they'll have more weight to that argument for Yoshi's Story. But I think that it should still be fine how it is.

 

[Sethlon]

IMO Yoshi's Island isn't really a neutral. Its got uneven terrain (not quite as uneven as Temple:M or Metal Cavern, but still enough to screw with things), a strange lip, a low and strangely slanted platform, and randomized support ghosts. I would put GHZ over it in a heartbeat.

Not having Yoshi's: Melee or Dreamland on as a starter is an interesting idea. I guess theres enough starter-esque stages now with normal sized blast zones that it would be possible. But then would FD still be a viable starter too?

 

[Metà]

YS and Metal Cavern are definitely too small to be starters. I think they should also be banned in doubles, considering that we now have bigger characters, and more enormous tank characters like Bowser and Dedede that are actually viable. Can you imagine a Bowser/DK vs Ganon/Dedede team on YS? hell, even with just 2/4 of those characters it would be too much.

GHZ is also a bit too small for doubles IMO. It's like a smaller FD with just a single platform. That one SSE stage should be allowed in doubles only. It's too big for singles

 

[Youngling]

Am I the only person that absolutely hates playing on Temple M?

 

[`dazrin]

i hate temple:M too.. lol but skyworld is worse.

just not a fan of the layout. i blame shadic.

I don't like yoshi:brawl either. way too slanty and small. YS:melee is too small for project:M neutrality. I think we have better stages now. Both yoshi stages are fine as CP though. And I wouldn't mind having dreamland as a CP either, tbh. (but that might be just cuz I main toonlink and no one but me dies on that stage..)

what do people think about warioware as a neutral? or dracula? i dont see much thats wrong with them that makes them a CP compared to YS:melee or YI:Brawl, or even dreamland for that matter.

 

[metroid1117]

what do people think about warioware as a neutral? or dracula? i dont see much thats wrong with them that makes them a CP compared to YS:melee or YI:Brawl, or even dreamland for that matter.

I personally don't think Warioware is a neutral stage because the stage itself seems too small, the ceiling is low, and the platforms allow for some ridiculous juggles. Much like Pokemon Stadium was deemed a counterpick in Melee because of how well Fox and Falco did there, I can see Warioware being counterpick because it's platform structure favors certain characters more than others. From my experience, Falco is great on that level because of how small the platforms are; DAir easily sets up for tech chases that can lead to UTilt for more DAir tech chases on higher platforms. Warioware is probably Ike's best stage; small platforms make UAir and USmash great for tech chases, the ceiling makes them great kill moves, and the entire stage is walled so he can recover very safely with QD wall-jumping. Character advantages are not nearly as augmented by stages like YS:Melee and YI:Brawl, which did also augment them to some extent (ex. Marth on YS:Melee), but I doubt they augment juggles like Warioware does.

I don't have enough experience on Dracula's Castle to give a truly educated opinion about it, so I'm not going to discuss it even though I personally wouldn't want it as neutral because of its size.

 

[Master WGS]

Speaking of Pokey Stadium, would it be possible to just remove the rock-themed part of the stage entirely? That terrain change utterly discourages fighting, and encourages just waiting for the stage to change, or camping out while you're ahead.

Don't think it's an absolutely necessary thing, but in the name of making Project M better and making more stages better suited for tournament play, I think it's certainly worth it.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

Personally, I'd cut FoD from the starters list. Those moving platforms screw around so much with Falcon and Ganon, and I really don't think they should have to deal with that on a starter.

Out of curiosity, have you guys made any changes to Ganon's Nair?

 

[JCaesar]

^ Then they can strike it.

Has anyone made any prototype stage lists for the demo yet? It's so hard to decide which stages are neutral and which are counterpick.

Where is GHNeko's stage system? That system was cool

That was my system actually. Neko made a more complex modification of it, involving striking from the CP groups for every counterpick.

Here what I came up with, and it's what we'll be using at the P:M tourney at Zenith:

Spoiler

For the 1st match, stage strike the starter list in 1-2-2-1-1-2 fashion. After the 1st match, each player bans a stage group for the remainder of the set (Players may counterpick a stage from the group they banned, and both players may ban the same group). The player who lost the previous match chooses a stage, then the player who won chooses their character, then the player who lost chooses their character.

Starters:
Battlefield
Final Destination
Smashville
Pokemon Stadium 2
Dreamland (64)
Yoshi's Story (Melee)
Fountain of Dreams (singles only)
SSE: Jungle (doubles only)

Counterpicks:
Group 1:
Final Destination
Smashville
Green Hill Zone
Dracula's Castle

Group 2:
Battlefield
Pokemon Stadium 1
Pokemon Stadium 2

Group 3:
Yoshi's Story (Melee)
Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
Wario Ware
Fountain of Dreams

Group 4:
Dreamland (64)
Skyworld
Rumble Falls
SSE:Jungle (teams only)

Group 5:
Kongo Jungle (64)
Halberd
Brinstar
Metal Cavern (singles only)
Hyrule Temple:M (teams only)

Do a lot of people think GHZ would make a better starter than YS:M? That's an interesting proposition. It does seem to have better size/boundaries and a more unique (yet still fairly neutral) layout.

 

[Strong Badam]

that's such a terrible reason. strike the stage, jesus.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

Yeah, I think that's a pretty bad reason for it to be there. With all the new PM stages, there should be enough starters than FoD isn't necessary.

I'd personally take YI:B or GHZ over it, but I don't know if those stages cause issues for other characters.

 

[Strong Badam]

the hell? i was calling your reasoning ********. you don't go around banning stages/changing them to CP because of how it affects characters, otherwise you're just playing favorites.

 

[`dazrin]

Do a lot of people think GHZ would make a better starter than YS:M? That's an interesting proposition. It does seem to have better size/boundaries and a more unique (yet still fairly neutral) layout.

I mean, think about it.

Like meta said, its a lightly smaller FD (with ike-friendly walls) with a single, steady-moving platform.
Can't get much more neutral than that. (i mean you could make the platform not move, but there isn't much reason to lol)

YS:M is so small in P:M. In melee, it was already one of (if not, THE) best stage for marth because of how tiny it was. In P:M, there are much more characters with range rivaling marth or greater that it just becomes ridiculous to play on it. Esp. if you're talking doubles, where I think YS:M could possibly be banned. The heavies are solid contenders in p:m and it's something we tend to forget about because they were virtually non-existant in a top level melee environment. Think about characters like d3, charizard, ike, bowser, DK, and even link. All these characters are viable choices in p:m and can control that stage ez pz. This isn't melee where its just fox, falco, sheik, jiggs, marth, peach, cf, running around. I think we have better options available now for neutral stages, and that YS:M is more of a counterpick for those who can abuse the stage lol

also because randall.



edit: fod should stay neutral. but should be cp/banned for doubles imo. for similar reasoning with YS:M

 

[MaxThunder]

^^Isn't fod banned from teams allready due to lag?.. or does it not lag in PM?..

 

[Strong Badam]

sorry but "the stage is too small" is a really weak argument when the stage has literally no random points or opportunities to time out. small stages are important; they allow slower, less mobile characters to use their ability to control a limited amount of space very well.

 

[`dazrin]

Is randall not considered as a "random point"? There are times in melee where people should've died but landed on randall and survived. One of my friends actually got falco dair spiked on one side of YS:M, got saved by randall, got combo'd to the other side of YS:M and dair spiked again, only to be saved by randall.. AGAIN. However he was way too stunned by what happened to react well enough to take advantage and died anyways lol.

It might not be enough to make cut it off the starter list, but I definitely think that GHZ deserves a spot as a starter

 

[MaxThunder]

^^randall is on a timer... so technically far from random...

 

[PEEF!]

^^randall is on a timer... so technically far from random...

To be fair, Randall is effectively random. Assuming you are actually thinking about the match, you can have little more than hope if he is not in the field of vision, or hasn't been for several seconds.

And Strong_Bad, I think much of the time we do ban stages because of how they affect characters, (Onett affecting Fox too favorably, for example.) However, the difference in Project:M is that we have tried to balance characters as best we can, so instead of getting rid of stages, we can adapt a character if they have too much trouble. You are right it would be wrong of us to play favorites in P:M, but that is largely because we have tried to balance characters. If there was a stage that truly made Ganon/Falcon unusabale, then there would be a good argument for eliminating the stage because of a horrid effect on balance.

The reason that was provided by RaphaelRobo is a terrible reason, but good reasons should be considered for the sake of balance, if we are unable to make characters adapt.

 

[`dazrin]

yeah. I guess.

I still wanna punch him though

 

[MaxThunder]

To be fair, Randall is effectively random. Assuming you are actually thinking about the match, you can have little more than hope if he is not in the field of vision, or hasn't been for several seconds.

... hence why i specified "technically"...

 

[`dazrin]

Which is why I still think GHZ is more neutral than YS:M. So maybe it's not enough to get it kicked off the neutral board, but GHZ is more deserving than YS:M imo.

The platform usually in your field of vision so you're aware of it's location and the options you have to utilize it. It also doesn't save you a stock by surprise like randall and ghost in YS:M and YI:B

 

[Strong Badam]

yes, peef, we ban stages because of things becoming too broken. falcon and ganon not being able to SHFFL like they can on every other stage on FoD is not "too broken"

and daze i'm so confused as to why you call it YS:M. there is no Yoshi's Story 64, there is no Yoshi's Story: Brawl. ??

 

[JCaesar]

So apparently England is really digging Project M.

Jcaeser, Our first Uk P:M tournament concluded the other day, Have results:

1: Professor Pro (Wolf)
2: Jolteon (ike)
3: j3ly (bowser/mario)
4: Dash (wario/Falco)
5: Unreal
5: JJlinyard (sonic)
7: Legacy
7: T.C.
9: Pow
9: Blink
9: Rampage
9: Sol64
13: AC
13: Feather
13: Loz8Ichinmaru
13: Luigmitsu

Verdict from the people: Ike is rediculous, He needs to be made just a tad slower so that his combo's have a smaller window for execution, giving aether less priority is also preferred as the mechanics of melee edgeguarding makes dealing with aether REALLY hard

Wolf is also very good due to his slow travelling lasers, It works akin to guiles sonic booms, Perhaps making it so only 2 lasers may be out at any one time will safe it from having TOO much pressure

There really wasnt much else to say at this point in time, We'll have more for you in the coming weeks, it will be a side event at all future uk biweeklies

 

[Strong Badam]

Wow, Professor Pro played it? Awesome. He's like top 2 in Melee over in England. Nice to know j3ly's Mario is still kickin, too.

 

[PEEF!]

Wow, Professor Pro played it? Awesome. He's like top 2 in Melee over in England. Nice to know j3ly's Mario is still kickin, too.

Yeah, I wish there were videos.

 

[`dazrin]

yes, peef, we ban stages because of things becoming too broken. falcon and ganon not being able to SHFFL like they can on every other stage on FoD is not "too broken"

and daze i'm so confused as to why you call it YS:M. there is no Yoshi's Story 64, there is no Yoshi's Story: Brawl. ??

Well iono i said YS once and someone told me to differentiate so I just said YS:M to be safe. >_>

 

[Strong Badam]

Lol damn well I guess there's just no pleasing people. Forget I mentioned it then XD

 

[`dazrin]

Lol no worries xD
As long as we know what stage we're talking about lolol. So yeah, so far I like JC's system the most- only problem being that it may take awhile to get matches done.

-And GHZ needs to get on the starter list

Also, which characters (do YOU think, in your opinion) in ProjectM go even/ have a MU advantage against Fox?
It's debated that in melee, fox, falco, marth and samus* go even with fox. But he doesn't have any worse matchup other than that.
What about P:M? I've heard Zelda is a contender for a threat against fox, or spacies in general. And if falco goes even, does wolf go even as well? I know it's wayyy too soon to be talking about MUs but I just wonder what people think could be some threats against the king of melee

 

[Sneak8288]

I think ness and lucas go even vs fox

 

[`dazrin]

care to give a tidbit of reasoning as to why?

 

[MaxThunder]

So... just wondering... does FoD lag in doubles in PM?..

 

[`dazrin]

nope.

cuz no reflection

 

[Sneak8288]

care to give a tidbit of reasoning as to why?

The ability to death combo them, improved mobility to keep up with them, being able to reduce damage when spacies use projectiles, they have great tools to edgeguard them (especially Lucas). I just feel they have plenty of tools to deal with spacies. Ness and Lucas may be the new spacies lol

 

[Yeroc]

Also, in Lucas's case, spacies vs spacies is even matchup >_>.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

that's such a terrible reason. strike the stage, jesus.

I agree 100% on this

Also no one answered me. What is the frame data on zelda's grab? Its no longer super slow right?

 

[standardtoaster]

Assuming there isn't an external speed multiplier on the grabs, standing grabs frame 9, dash grabs frame 10, and pivot grab frame 13.