Cubelarooso
Smash Lord
[collapse=Meat Knight]
[collapse='Cubelarooso 02/02/2011 ']
First, something that every Brawl mod should include, give Meta Knight the normal Kirby win theme
Every time I hear it, it just sounds like Sakurai laughing in my face. I can't imagine that Meta Game Knight being the only character with a custom win theme is coincidence, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who doesn't like being reminded of his vice grip on competitive Brawl [lol out of date]. Like Snake's Utilt, it has ignominy that's best forgotten.
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[collapse='Cubelarooso 08/13/2011']
I actually liked the fact that Meta Knight's moves had transcendental priority; it made his sword actually seem like a mystical artifact. I think it could have been, and could be, a perfectly reasonable and unique trait if properly balanced around (or at all). Particularly, a reduction of hitbox size, even beyond Meleefying it, would help, since then more characters' attacks could trade with him.
Since most of Meta Knight's attacks are quick, he should often beat out other character's attacks just by virtue of hitting sooner, priority never entering the equation. Transcendence also means that others' attacks go through his, too, and since he (ideally) has mostly weak, multi-hit attacks meant for comboing, trading hits would commonly be against his favor. Lastly, he's unable to punch out projectiles, a weakness which works well with his own lack of any.
So, while certainly an ultimately beneficial quality, having transcendent priority on most moves is not necessarily overpowered, and even comes with a few drawbacks. So, rather than just removing it, I would try to work with it to create a balanced character with a special property that adds both a new gameplay dynamic and a bit of canonical flavor.
Another thing about vBrawl Meta Knight I found interesting was the fact that all his B-moves could be used for recovery, and consequently they all put him in special fall. In a good game, this would mean a has a of variety options for different recovery situations, or just as mixups, but each comes with a particular weakness (such as range, speed, vulnerability, predictability, unreliability, or whatever) such that they're individually below-average. And of course, it also means he's the only character who can't safely use any special moves off-stage.
An important move his Tornado[/b][/u], which is so notoriously stupid in Brawl it could be in danger of being nerfed to uselessness just out of spite if this were a less professional team. But of course, it should just be balanced as if it were any other move. In my hypothetical design, it would be a safe recovery for moderate distances from the stage, filled with protective hitboxes that are nevertheless not as annoyingly impenetrable as vBrawl, and would be maneuverable for fakeouts and curving around edgeguarders, but is relatively slow and is difficult or impossible to sweetspot with due to its unstable nature or as a programmed limitation. Given its normal priority, it could also be used as a defense against projectiles, but suffers due to its long-winded-ness.
I'd also decrease Dimensional Cape's teleport range down to half or even a third, as a trade-off for all its other great qualities. Even outside of my design-concept, I suggest making this change. It's such a quick and unpredictable attack, and would be strong even if it weren't on a character that's supposed to lack kill-power … Having it additionally be one of his longest ranged attacks just makes it sound OP on paper, and in practice videos show players spamming it with impunity. With effectiveness, even! [this referred to now-old builds]
Shuttle Loop was specifically built with gliding in mind, so it looks terrible without it. I know Meta Knight isn't complete yet, let alone polished, so I'm sure you were going to do something about it eventually, but I'm going enumerate some of the possible fixes I have considered just on the chance that there might be one you've not considered.
For one, the glide could be triggered only when Meta Knight has a certain amount of jumps left. Though that wouldn't solve the problem when he doesn't have those jumps left.
So instead, he could always glide a certain time/distance, increasing when he has used more jumps, and ending either in special fall or an automatic glide attack (followed by special fall).
Or, he could just come right out of the Loop with a glide attack, rather than that twisting animation he has now. He could perhaps even be able to use any aerial out of it, and gain a good amount of horizontal momentum in lieu of gliding.
The glide could be made into a more limited version, removing the ability to use any aerial out of it (if that's still what's normal in P:M), as well as any or all of: the glide attack, airdodge, and ledgegrab. Thus, in its worst variation, the advantage of having such long-distance recovery is countered by it being completely vulnerable, plus the difficulty and lag of being forced to land onstage or else fall to your doom or fly off into oblivion.
This (or any of these, actually) could be combined with a removal of Meta Knight's ability to glide normally, as a balancing agent to keep his recovery limited.
Lastly, the animation could just be refined, or the whole move changed entirely.
I just don't think it looks good as is.
[/collapse]
For Drill Rush, I'd imagine a fair distance quickly, but quite predictable, limited in vertical range, and weak as an attack.
A note on how I imagine him playing: highly aggressive, utilizing his fast attacks, low knockback, and multiple jumps to launch a barrage of attacks that completely overwhelm the opponent in a tempest of slashing combos, but with an emphasis on constantly keeping on the offensive due to great weakness on the defensive.
[/collapse][collapse=Rollimar]
By Cubelarooso 12/28/2011
All pikmin have the same amount of health. White and purple are plucked with same probability, which is lower than that of the other three, who also share probabilities amongst themselves. Elemental immunities are replaced with 25-50% damage reduction, and the elemental effects from hitting with a pikmin are removed (reds are immune to fire, not made of fire).
In general, reds deal high damage.
In general, yellows have high range. They are also Pikmin Thrown at a higher arc, and sweetspotting with the tip of their FSmash causes an explosion and is one of Olimar's most powerful moves.
In general, whites have less range on "holding" moves (tilts and aerials) and more on "throwing" moves (smashes, Side-B, grab), and attacks with them are faster. When killed, their ghost is a flinchless hitbox for ~5%. Also, for fun and if possible, when the amount of time Olimar is buried decreases by some percentage for each white near him.
In general, purples have low range and slow attacks, but high damage and knockback. Like Brawl, they're the only ones to cause knockback, rather than latch on, for Side-B. They also have the best throws, and tipping with FSmash causes paralysis akin to Zamus's.
Blues don't have any specific general advantage, though they're far from useless. Rather, their use is entirely on a move-by-move basis, and dependent of circumstance. I also like the idea that their Dair is a true spike. Also, as if it matters, they don't drown in water. For a bit more flavor, and if possible, they could also extend the time Olimar can swim, and/or keep one other pikmin from drowning (so 3 blues = no drowning).
I say "in general" because each move should be a different case. It shouldn't be a game of "this pikmin's for combos, this for kills, and that for gimps." Each color should have its individual properties, but not so much that it just becomes a big stereotype (much like the pikmin themselves aren't just stereotyped "fire," "water," "electric," etc., but are unique creatures with varied abilities). Any pikmin can be used to do any thing, and it's viable to use it with any particular attack; maybe it's theoretically less effective than another, but good enough for when that other's not on hand and until it can be plucked, and it's always situational.
I disagree with pikmin not switching after every attack. I think that could lead to a similar problem as Red had, where one pikmin color is just better than the others, or people just end up maining a single color. If maining a single color is an inviable tactic, then switching pikmin will be even more forced on players than if it was literally forced, since the later is counteractable, and the whole mechanic would become even more gimmicky (using Umbreon's definition). And if those pitfalls are avoided, then the purpose of having multiples of the same color is defeated.
It's not like what pikmin is used is random, you know well ahead of time. You're given six times the amount of foreknowledge as in the game Tetris, and you can't say that's not competitive. If given a better way to manage the line (something that can be done between hits) and kill unwanted pikmin (:evillaugh
, no one could ever say he's not in complete control.
Olimar should be like an extension of Smash's own mechanics. Things like damage staling, knockback changing from opponent's weight and damage and DI, the variety of nonuniform stages that make positioning a big factor, and the large amount mobility, all interrupt the memorized, cookie-cutter combos of traditional fighters; yet all these variables will fall within a known range that can be predicted and accounted for, leading to spontaneous combos dependent on player knowledge of those variables, their moves' properties, and the game's mechanics (IMO, this is all for the better). Olimar should be just like that, with combos dependent on what pikmin he happens to have on hand and how inventive he is, leading to 5^6=15,625 times the possibilities of a normal character. Smash requires more brainpower than a traditional fighting game, and Olimar more than a traditional Smash character.
Not switching would really make him no different than any other character. Players wouldn't have learn the properties and possibilities and limitations of each color-move combination, they wouldn't have to pay attention to or manage the line so they have the right one when they want it, they wouldn't have to use his idiosyncrasies at all. They'd just use the pikmin in their predefined roles, and play like a normal character.
This goes back to the "in general" deal: Olimar needs to have options regardless of which color is up next, yet these options should also depend on the color. Thus, the exact values of damage, shield damage, BKB, KBG, angle, range, startup, end-lag, duration, sweetspot location/existence, multi- or single-hit, and everything for each color-move combination should be created independently, without following a specific pattern, but tending toward a general chromatic trend. That is the key point that makes the blues not useless, as well as the other colors not completely useless in aspects that are not their defined strength. Thus the Olimar player would actually have to know what he is doing, rather than just look at the color and be told what to do.
At the least, they should switch after all "throwing" attacks.
I also agree with an idea from Smashboards:
Or if it could cause edgehoggers to drop, even while invincible, it could make Ivy less gimpable. Though it may not be too useful in that regard if it's short range…
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[collapse=Cubelarooso 02/21/2011]
Give Razor Leaf a "sweet spot" at some point along its trajectory (say, the very end, or right in the middle). If hit at this point, it does significantly more damage and knockback. This could make up for how slow and laggy it is, and pays homage to the increased critical hit ratio it has. You can even make it weakly spike airborne opponents there, so it can be used as a defense against edgehoggers, and allow him to effectively edgeguard without going into the highly disadvantageous position of in the air and off-stage.
Something I've always found interesting was the fact that Ivysaur is a quadraped, which could be reflected in-game by giving him some sort of property related to the increased stability. Something like an immunity to tripping, constant crouch cancel while on the ground, immunity to being prone, heavy armor during CC, or whatever. This could again help his ground game, and gel well with his defensive style.
[/collapse]
[collapse=Cubelarooso 07/25/2011]
Sludge
Could either shoot a glob of sludge out at some trajectory, or shoot globlets of sludge which rain around Ivy. The initial hit hit deals damage, and also attaches a glob to the opponent, like C4. The attached glob damages the opponent at set intervals, either with flinching or without, before eventually falling off.
Better yet, it could be Sludge Bomb, working the same way as before or with the ticks of damage removed, but either way it goes out with a bang, usable for kills. Button mashing could make it fall off, as with flowers, thus allowing victims to stave off toxplosive doom at low percentages.
Could also leave a temporary puddle on the ground if it misses, which would damage those walking over it, as well possibly slowing movement or causing tripping.
There are lots of possible variations of implementation, I would even consider putting this over Bullet Seed. [in fact, this is now definitely my preferred option over Seed, but as Down-B, and Cut as Neutral-B]
Finally, I still like the idea of giving the pokémon their Melee counterparts' moves, which would fit with the them of Pro:M.
Earthquake (with reduced range) would make a good DSmash for Ivysaur, whose vBrawl one always looked awkward to me. Charge time could increase range and/or duration, though with IASA after the uncharged version would be over. Or it could be moved to DTilt for continuous usage.
[/collapse]
[collapse=Cubelarooso 11-11-2011]
Give Ivysaur a biting attack animation, probably on Fsmash, or even better on dash attack. Just look at those fangs!
[/collapse]
[collapse=Cubelarooso 07/25/2011]
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Note on how I imagine Ivysaur playing: quite defensively, due to slow startup on attacks and very poor aerial mobility, which makes Ivy combolicious. And due to better ground based options, many attacks having good vertical reach to attack opponents above, a poor recovery, and a stability property, Ivy greatly wants to stay grounded (just like a real-life plant-reptile monster with ears), only making short excursions into the air for juggles and returning quickly and safely with Dair, where he can best dish out his own combos. A couple projectiles and long-ranged vines allow for a bit of zoning and camping, and strong kill moves with ways to set them up gives him no trouble in that area.
[/collapse]
Proofread later maybe. Hungry.
[collapse='Cubelarooso 02/02/2011 ']
First, something that every Brawl mod should include, give Meta Knight the normal Kirby win theme
Every time I hear it, it just sounds like Sakurai laughing in my face. I can't imagine that Meta Game Knight being the only character with a custom win theme is coincidence, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who doesn't like being reminded of his vice grip on competitive Brawl [lol out of date]. Like Snake's Utilt, it has ignominy that's best forgotten.
[/collapse]
[collapse='Cubelarooso 08/13/2011']
I actually liked the fact that Meta Knight's moves had transcendental priority; it made his sword actually seem like a mystical artifact. I think it could have been, and could be, a perfectly reasonable and unique trait if properly balanced around (or at all). Particularly, a reduction of hitbox size, even beyond Meleefying it, would help, since then more characters' attacks could trade with him.
Since most of Meta Knight's attacks are quick, he should often beat out other character's attacks just by virtue of hitting sooner, priority never entering the equation. Transcendence also means that others' attacks go through his, too, and since he (ideally) has mostly weak, multi-hit attacks meant for comboing, trading hits would commonly be against his favor. Lastly, he's unable to punch out projectiles, a weakness which works well with his own lack of any.
So, while certainly an ultimately beneficial quality, having transcendent priority on most moves is not necessarily overpowered, and even comes with a few drawbacks. So, rather than just removing it, I would try to work with it to create a balanced character with a special property that adds both a new gameplay dynamic and a bit of canonical flavor.
Another thing about vBrawl Meta Knight I found interesting was the fact that all his B-moves could be used for recovery, and consequently they all put him in special fall. In a good game, this would mean a has a of variety options for different recovery situations, or just as mixups, but each comes with a particular weakness (such as range, speed, vulnerability, predictability, unreliability, or whatever) such that they're individually below-average. And of course, it also means he's the only character who can't safely use any special moves off-stage.
An important move his Tornado[/b][/u], which is so notoriously stupid in Brawl it could be in danger of being nerfed to uselessness just out of spite if this were a less professional team. But of course, it should just be balanced as if it were any other move. In my hypothetical design, it would be a safe recovery for moderate distances from the stage, filled with protective hitboxes that are nevertheless not as annoyingly impenetrable as vBrawl, and would be maneuverable for fakeouts and curving around edgeguarders, but is relatively slow and is difficult or impossible to sweetspot with due to its unstable nature or as a programmed limitation. Given its normal priority, it could also be used as a defense against projectiles, but suffers due to its long-winded-ness.
I'd also decrease Dimensional Cape's teleport range down to half or even a third, as a trade-off for all its other great qualities. Even outside of my design-concept, I suggest making this change. It's such a quick and unpredictable attack, and would be strong even if it weren't on a character that's supposed to lack kill-power … Having it additionally be one of his longest ranged attacks just makes it sound OP on paper, and in practice videos show players spamming it with impunity. With effectiveness, even! [this referred to now-old builds]
Shuttle Loop was specifically built with gliding in mind, so it looks terrible without it. I know Meta Knight isn't complete yet, let alone polished, so I'm sure you were going to do something about it eventually, but I'm going enumerate some of the possible fixes I have considered just on the chance that there might be one you've not considered.
For one, the glide could be triggered only when Meta Knight has a certain amount of jumps left. Though that wouldn't solve the problem when he doesn't have those jumps left.
So instead, he could always glide a certain time/distance, increasing when he has used more jumps, and ending either in special fall or an automatic glide attack (followed by special fall).
Or, he could just come right out of the Loop with a glide attack, rather than that twisting animation he has now. He could perhaps even be able to use any aerial out of it, and gain a good amount of horizontal momentum in lieu of gliding.
The glide could be made into a more limited version, removing the ability to use any aerial out of it (if that's still what's normal in P:M), as well as any or all of: the glide attack, airdodge, and ledgegrab. Thus, in its worst variation, the advantage of having such long-distance recovery is countered by it being completely vulnerable, plus the difficulty and lag of being forced to land onstage or else fall to your doom or fly off into oblivion.
This (or any of these, actually) could be combined with a removal of Meta Knight's ability to glide normally, as a balancing agent to keep his recovery limited.
Lastly, the animation could just be refined, or the whole move changed entirely.
I just don't think it looks good as is.
[/collapse]
For Drill Rush, I'd imagine a fair distance quickly, but quite predictable, limited in vertical range, and weak as an attack.
A note on how I imagine him playing: highly aggressive, utilizing his fast attacks, low knockback, and multiple jumps to launch a barrage of attacks that completely overwhelm the opponent in a tempest of slashing combos, but with an emphasis on constantly keeping on the offensive due to great weakness on the defensive.
[/collapse][collapse=Rollimar]
By Cubelarooso 12/28/2011
All pikmin have the same amount of health. White and purple are plucked with same probability, which is lower than that of the other three, who also share probabilities amongst themselves. Elemental immunities are replaced with 25-50% damage reduction, and the elemental effects from hitting with a pikmin are removed (reds are immune to fire, not made of fire).
In general, reds deal high damage.
In general, yellows have high range. They are also Pikmin Thrown at a higher arc, and sweetspotting with the tip of their FSmash causes an explosion and is one of Olimar's most powerful moves.
In general, whites have less range on "holding" moves (tilts and aerials) and more on "throwing" moves (smashes, Side-B, grab), and attacks with them are faster. When killed, their ghost is a flinchless hitbox for ~5%. Also, for fun and if possible, when the amount of time Olimar is buried decreases by some percentage for each white near him.
In general, purples have low range and slow attacks, but high damage and knockback. Like Brawl, they're the only ones to cause knockback, rather than latch on, for Side-B. They also have the best throws, and tipping with FSmash causes paralysis akin to Zamus's.
Blues don't have any specific general advantage, though they're far from useless. Rather, their use is entirely on a move-by-move basis, and dependent of circumstance. I also like the idea that their Dair is a true spike. Also, as if it matters, they don't drown in water. For a bit more flavor, and if possible, they could also extend the time Olimar can swim, and/or keep one other pikmin from drowning (so 3 blues = no drowning).
I say "in general" because each move should be a different case. It shouldn't be a game of "this pikmin's for combos, this for kills, and that for gimps." Each color should have its individual properties, but not so much that it just becomes a big stereotype (much like the pikmin themselves aren't just stereotyped "fire," "water," "electric," etc., but are unique creatures with varied abilities). Any pikmin can be used to do any thing, and it's viable to use it with any particular attack; maybe it's theoretically less effective than another, but good enough for when that other's not on hand and until it can be plucked, and it's always situational.
I disagree with pikmin not switching after every attack. I think that could lead to a similar problem as Red had, where one pikmin color is just better than the others, or people just end up maining a single color. If maining a single color is an inviable tactic, then switching pikmin will be even more forced on players than if it was literally forced, since the later is counteractable, and the whole mechanic would become even more gimmicky (using Umbreon's definition). And if those pitfalls are avoided, then the purpose of having multiples of the same color is defeated.
It's not like what pikmin is used is random, you know well ahead of time. You're given six times the amount of foreknowledge as in the game Tetris, and you can't say that's not competitive. If given a better way to manage the line (something that can be done between hits) and kill unwanted pikmin (:evillaugh
, no one could ever say he's not in complete control.Olimar should be like an extension of Smash's own mechanics. Things like damage staling, knockback changing from opponent's weight and damage and DI, the variety of nonuniform stages that make positioning a big factor, and the large amount mobility, all interrupt the memorized, cookie-cutter combos of traditional fighters; yet all these variables will fall within a known range that can be predicted and accounted for, leading to spontaneous combos dependent on player knowledge of those variables, their moves' properties, and the game's mechanics (IMO, this is all for the better). Olimar should be just like that, with combos dependent on what pikmin he happens to have on hand and how inventive he is, leading to 5^6=15,625 times the possibilities of a normal character. Smash requires more brainpower than a traditional fighting game, and Olimar more than a traditional Smash character.
Not switching would really make him no different than any other character. Players wouldn't have learn the properties and possibilities and limitations of each color-move combination, they wouldn't have to pay attention to or manage the line so they have the right one when they want it, they wouldn't have to use his idiosyncrasies at all. They'd just use the pikmin in their predefined roles, and play like a normal character.
This goes back to the "in general" deal: Olimar needs to have options regardless of which color is up next, yet these options should also depend on the color. Thus, the exact values of damage, shield damage, BKB, KBG, angle, range, startup, end-lag, duration, sweetspot location/existence, multi- or single-hit, and everything for each color-move combination should be created independently, without following a specific pattern, but tending toward a general chromatic trend. That is the key point that makes the blues not useless, as well as the other colors not completely useless in aspects that are not their defined strength. Thus the Olimar player would actually have to know what he is doing, rather than just look at the color and be told what to do.
At the least, they should switch after all "throwing" attacks.
I also agree with an idea from Smashboards:
That Cut does sound real cool. Could be even more interesting if it other situational uses could be programmed, such as cutting tethers or cutting through super armor or stuff. Much like the situational uses HM's have out of battle.
Or if it could cause edgehoggers to drop, even while invincible, it could make Ivy less gimpable. Though it may not be too useful in that regard if it's short range…
[/collapse]
[collapse=Cubelarooso 02/21/2011]
Give Razor Leaf a "sweet spot" at some point along its trajectory (say, the very end, or right in the middle). If hit at this point, it does significantly more damage and knockback. This could make up for how slow and laggy it is, and pays homage to the increased critical hit ratio it has. You can even make it weakly spike airborne opponents there, so it can be used as a defense against edgehoggers, and allow him to effectively edgeguard without going into the highly disadvantageous position of in the air and off-stage.
Something I've always found interesting was the fact that Ivysaur is a quadraped, which could be reflected in-game by giving him some sort of property related to the increased stability. Something like an immunity to tripping, constant crouch cancel while on the ground, immunity to being prone, heavy armor during CC, or whatever. This could again help his ground game, and gel well with his defensive style.
[/collapse]
[collapse=Cubelarooso 07/25/2011]
Sludge
Could either shoot a glob of sludge out at some trajectory, or shoot globlets of sludge which rain around Ivy. The initial hit hit deals damage, and also attaches a glob to the opponent, like C4. The attached glob damages the opponent at set intervals, either with flinching or without, before eventually falling off.
Better yet, it could be Sludge Bomb, working the same way as before or with the ticks of damage removed, but either way it goes out with a bang, usable for kills. Button mashing could make it fall off, as with flowers, thus allowing victims to stave off toxplosive doom at low percentages.
Could also leave a temporary puddle on the ground if it misses, which would damage those walking over it, as well possibly slowing movement or causing tripping.
There are lots of possible variations of implementation, I would even consider putting this over Bullet Seed. [in fact, this is now definitely my preferred option over Seed, but as Down-B, and Cut as Neutral-B]
Finally, I still like the idea of giving the pokémon their Melee counterparts' moves, which would fit with the them of Pro:M.
Earthquake (with reduced range) would make a good DSmash for Ivysaur, whose vBrawl one always looked awkward to me. Charge time could increase range and/or duration, though with IASA after the uncharged version would be over. Or it could be moved to DTilt for continuous usage.
[/collapse]
[collapse=Cubelarooso 11-11-2011]
Give Ivysaur a biting attack animation, probably on Fsmash, or even better on dash attack. Just look at those fangs!
[/collapse]
[collapse=Cubelarooso 07/25/2011]
That would be pretty cool. With a hitbox on Uair she'd have a great way to return to the ground without interference. It could also give one or both of: a faster fall than a fastfall, or heavy armor.
[/collapse]
Note on how I imagine Ivysaur playing: quite defensively, due to slow startup on attacks and very poor aerial mobility, which makes Ivy combolicious. And due to better ground based options, many attacks having good vertical reach to attack opponents above, a poor recovery, and a stability property, Ivy greatly wants to stay grounded (just like a real-life plant-reptile monster with ears), only making short excursions into the air for juggles and returning quickly and safely with Dair, where he can best dish out his own combos. A couple projectiles and long-ranged vines allow for a bit of zoning and camping, and strong kill moves with ways to set them up gives him no trouble in that area.
[/collapse]
Proofread later maybe. Hungry.
