Project M Social Thread

[drsusredfish]

We aren't suggesting make every character the same.

We are saying you can't make characters RELY on gimmicks to the point that if that gimmick is overcome by your opponent then the character is screwed. This destroys a characters viablity and balance.

If Nana dies IC are SCREWED
If lucas cant kill without offence up he is SCREWED
If Olimar has no plucked pikmen he is SCREWED
If vlucario has no damage he cant kill then he is SCREWED
IF ZSS pivot side B wall can be breached she is SCREWED
If Lucario can't do more than 10% damage without the OHC then he is SCREWED
If squirtle can't do anything other then sideB set ups he is SCREWED
etc. etc

this is what P:M can't have.

if falcon couldn't knee he screwed?
(somewhat joking...but not really. hate that knee<_<)

 

[Xebenkeck]

if falcon couldn't knee he screwed?

nah he gotcool uair combos, falcon punch, grabs, nipple spike, good nair approach, he is not screwed without knee, worse, but not crippled, unlike Popo without Nana.

 

[drsusredfish]

how good would fox and falco be with out shine? i wana see a fight were they don't use it at all.

 

[Comeback Kid]

I wish all characters could OHC in P:M. Then it would be a central mechanic and despite that ppl would still call it a gimmick here haha.

 

[Xebenkeck]

how good would fox and falco be with out shine? i wana see a fight were they don't use it at all.

Watch any match where a falco lazer camps. He would simply turn into Brawl falco pretty much lol. Which is 3-5th best lol.

 

[9Kplus1]

Melee SoPo is more legit than Brawl js

 

[TeiunBomb]

OHC I think is more of an extension of his moveset rather then a gimmick. It's like Fox/Falco being able to JC shine. They would arguably not be anywhere near as good if they couldn't JC it.

I disagree, merely on the grounds of comparison. Going back into comparisons from other fighting games, Fox/Falco with a JC Shine would like not being able to combo in the first installment of Street Fighter II. (For those that don't know, combos started as a glitch, and was later embraced by developers.) Yes, you could still win effectively, but the character definitely suffers without it. In comparison, Lucario's On-Hit Cancel system would be more along the lines of learning how to micromanage Eddie's shadow, or A.B.A.'s shenanigans with Prometheus in the Guilty Gear games. The character's entire game revolves around that, and you have to know what you're doing, or else all your noise is getting erased.

Again, the word "gimmick" is not an inherently bad term, and neither is a character having one; what matters is how that gimmick is implemented.

Brawl's aura system on the other hand... now that was gimmicky

Agreed, at least in terms of a poorly thought out gimmick. Seriously, needing to take damage before your character becomes good? I love Sakurai and all, but what was he smoking when he thought that up?

If Nana dies IC are SCREWED
If lucas cant kill without offence up he is SCREWED
If Olimar has no plucked pikmen he is SCREWED
If vlucario has no damage he cant kill then he is SCREWED
IF ZSS pivot side B wall can be breached she is SCREWED
If Lucario can't do more than 10% damage without the OHC then he is SCREWED
If squirtle can't do anything other then sideB set ups he is SCREWED
etc. etc

this is what P:M can't have.

Save for Brawl Lucario's Aura subsystem, Ice Climbers to an extent, and possibly Squirtle, none of these characters are outright reliant on their particular gimmick or subsystem. (I say "possibly" for Squirtle because I haven't seen enough of him to tell.) Ice Climbers are definitely more difficult to win with if you lose the second Climber, but I've seen victories pulled out nonetheless. Admittedly, it's not the most well-developed subsystem, though.

As far as everything else, though?

Lucas can kill quite reliably without Offense Up, at least from the streams that I've seen.
Olimar can make enough space to grab at least one pikmin without getting pummeled to death.
Zamus doesn't rely on her side B, but it is a useful tool for her, much like Fox and Falco's JC Shine.
It's been proven that Lucario can do more than 10% damage with OHC; it's just a matter of learning a character with a higher difficulty curve.

etc. etc.

 

[Deleted member]

I wish all characters could OHC in P:M. Then it would be a central mechanic and despite that ppl would still call it a gimmick here haha.

I guess, you're right it wouldn't be a gimmick. But it'd still be a stupid game that no one wanted to play.

Fox/Falco would still be well above average if the reflector could only reflect projectiles. Shine is not a gimmick in any way.

 

[humble]

Rather then gimmick, I simply think of things like OHC, Squirtle's withdraw, JC Shine, Shoulder Charge, Sheik Dthrow, etc, as core mechanics. Gimmick implies a one-dimensionality and has a negative connatation, and let's be honest, Melee characters had just as polarizing movesets as alot of the newcomers. Don't believe me? Puff Bair, Rest, Sheik Dthrow, Fair, Falco Shine, Dair, Laser, Fox Shine, Usmash, Marth Fair, Grab, Peach Dsmash, Hover, etc. In fact, if you look at the newcomers in comparison, they have a lot more wholesome movesets, by which I mean that rather then having 1 or 2 fantastic moves, they have moves that all work together, centralized around a defining "gimmick".

Seriously, don't just insult all the work the PM:BR have put into this project, calling all the newcomers one-dimensional gimmicks that people won't want to play. They've created amazing, deep characters that fit into the engine of our favorite game of all time like a glove, they've made a varied and deep cast, and I know for a fact that I and many others love what they done, and hardly think it's gimmickry and one-dimensional.

 

[Xebenkeck]

@TeiunBomb

key word I was using was "IF" Lucas' offence up is IMO a good gimmick. But the PM Team can't go with the logic of, "Okay lucas has Offence Up, so he should have no kill moves unless he has offence up charged. But we will give him the ability to keep the charge if he hits as a buff."

This logic is what can't happen. Lucas should be able to kill at 130% with usmash fsmash dsmash uncharged. Charged should let him kill at say 110% with those moves. This is good because it definatley adds to his gameplay, but he would not be hindered greatlyif he didn't have a charge.

I'm not saying this is how it is currently, by what I can see it's fairly close to how I described it above. But it is just a example of where faulty logic to a gimmick can be misused andcould potentially lead to a polarized character.

IC's with Nana are high tier, SoPo is bottom tier, In this case Lucas can't be high tier with a charge, and bottom tier without a charge. This makes a BAD gimmick

 

[GHNeko]

ITT: Gamers classify more than they should as gimmicky.

lol smashers.

 

[Deleted member]

As much as I like corny speeches, I'd seriously rather improve the game play. Lucario's cancel system fits into melee like a glove about as well as I can slam my **** in an oven door. I'm not insulting anyone, and meat-riding isn't my thing. I'm just really interested in the approach to designing a game like this, and it's fun to follow...from a distance.

 

[LegendofLink]

What seems to be the problem here is that people are latching on to the word "gimmick" and thinking that those need to be solved, when the real issue is interactivity. A "gimmick" (the term is too vague to be of any use in practical discussion IMO, but I'll roll with it) can easily be interactive, and something that isn't can easily be near impossible to interact with. For example, perfect waveshines are near impossible to interact with as you can't do anything against then unless they make a mistake in spacing or timing. Now the fact that it is humanly impossible to be that perfect somewhat balances that, but it still stands that even core non-"gimmick" mechanics can be hard to interact as well if they're not designed properly. And yes, I do feel that the shines being as good as they are is a design flaw, but it's grandfathered in now, so it'll have to be worked around.

 

[JCaesar]

ya i'm not trying to be a jerk. unlike usual, where i am trying to be a jerk.

i also haven't seen like half the cast so i'm not sure how educated my opinions are. the MD/VA guys don't touch them for whatever reason.

Heh, we actually play about 3/4 of the cast between us. It's just that when we play you, you only play Melee top tiers and you never sandbag and you're godly good at smash in general, so we all feel like we have to stick to our best few characters against you or we'd just get 4-stocked all the time

btw for anyone who's interested, new videos up on my youtube channel, including Link and Lucario, and I've seen how much you guys have been discussing them recently.

 

[Deleted member]

Heh, we actually play about 3/4 of the cast between us. It's just that when we play you, you only play Melee top tiers and you never sandbag and you're godly good at smash in general, so we all feel like we have to stick to our best few characters against you or we'd just get 4-stocked all the time

btw for anyone who's interested, new videos up on my youtube channel, including Link and Lucario, and I've seen how much you guys have been discussing them recently.

tbh i sandbag quite a bit unless i'm playing zelda or sheik, but particularly sheik. although i'm pretty sure half of your crew could beat me if they actually tried. except teams. zelda is too stupid for me to consistently lose at teams, the character's goodness at the format carries lol

 

[humble]

As much as I like corny speeches, I'd seriously rather improve the game play. Lucario's cancel system fits into melee like a glove about as well as I can slam my **** in an oven door. I'm not insulting anyone, and meat-riding isn't my thing. I'm just really interested in the approach to designing a game like this, and it's fun to follow...from a distance.

Pfft, I'm not an ***-kissing fanboy.

Spoiler

Wait yeah I am.

I think Lucario's OHC system does work well. It gives him a faster paced, more technical play, where he makes combos up on the fly according to his opponents DI, unlike say a traditional fighter where it was just something you memorize and execute the same every time, Lucario is interesting because he has to have fluid combos and shield pressure, which I find engaging and rewarding- you have to make these on the fly decisions, trying to string attacks together, and when you pull it off successfully, it's extremely rewarding and awesome.

However, that's just my opinion, so take it with a grain of salt, I could be very well be just a blind fanboy who thinks the PM:BR can do no wrong. Sorry if I annoyed you or anything, I didn't mean to proselilatize.

 

[TeiunBomb]

key word I was using was "IF" Lucas' offence up is IMO a good gimmick. But the PM Team can't go with the logic of, "Okay lucas has Offence Up, so he should have no kill moves unless he has offence up charged. But we will give him the ability to keep the charge if he hits as a buff."

Agreed. It's as you said; that would be a bad design choice. However, from what I've seen in the streams, Lucas isn't even close to that in the latest builds. Not only are his uncharged Smashes reliable, but he can also kill with bair, and I believe his dair can function as a spike, although I could be wrong on that—I'm just going by the terminology that was used in the stream I saw, so I don't know if it's a spike, or merely a Meteor Smash.

In short, relax; Lucas is just fine. And even if he's not, there's still enough time between now and the final version to work on him.

...speaking of Lucas, I think that his dair and fair should have the hexagonal PK energy that many of his other attack have. Maybe it's just me, but his attacks look almost... unnatural without them, even if the animations themselves are fine. Again, one man's opinion.

 

[Cero]

The Demo

I got bored and made a video.

Level 9 CPU's and **** quality... So, enjoy. Lol.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I just consider **** like "Samus's U-smash shooting out 4 different effects and freezing the enemy" a gimmick. Or silly **** like the entire Minus cast has.

Melee Popo still has decent leads from grabs, one of the best D-Smashes, arguably the best wavedash, and a projectile that moves slower than said wave dash, as well as a decent solo moveset consisting of F- and D-tilt, Bair, and Uair. Obviously having Nana is what makes them High tier because of grabbing shenanigans and Desynchs but it's hardly as clowny as Zamus D-smash stunning or Zelda-'s disjoints.

 

[Kaye Cruiser]

All this "gimmick" (loltheantiepic) whining going on about each character's unique trait in P:M makes me feel like I'm in a Blazblue topic rather than Smash. lol

Then again, for some reason I always considered Blazblue to be the "Smash" of traditional fighting games and similar to it in a weird kinda way, and P:M does nothing but help that odd thought.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Touhou Hisoutensoku is pretty goofy and has widely open movement. I'd compare it to Smash before Blasblue. Blazblue is just more simple than most fighters.

 

[Kaye Cruiser]

Touhou Hisoutensoku is pretty goofy and has widely open movement. I'd compare it to Smash before Blasblue. Blazblue is just more simple than most fighters.

Blazblue? Simple? lmao

Okay buddy. Okay. xD

We'll just close that little topic right there...And I'll pretend you meant to say UMvC3.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I guess BB has roman cancels and FRCs now.

Seriously though, BB is to GG as Brawl is to Melee. Except that BB isn't awful.

 

[Archangel]

I don't think it's half of what Umbreon made it sounds like. Still...there are some things that are gimmicky other things seem that way just because they are unfamiliar.

I do believe the fear of over-buffing some characters may have led to things that are seen as gimmicky. Still I think some characters are legit and seem to fit Melee very well. I think all characters that have wings will be awkward as hell to get use to. I think characters like DDD which are big and balky and slow will face the same problems as the previous big, bulky, slow characters. Dispite being made good speed is what makes melee the way it is. If you have no way to speed up then you're gonna lose out to the fast characters always (still work in progress though so it's cool)

I like all returning top and high tiers something about Sheik still being able to SD with a Side-B seems.......idk someone help me here.

(Brawl characters that might translate well in melee when completed)

I personally think Snake fits in very well considering what's been done to him. Go play vbrawl snake then come back to PM snake....yeah... I agree that Lucario fits melee. He's got that hype thing going like a Captain Falcon kind of way that I can just seem the crowd of a tournament screaming while a Lucario is getting off on the projector. I like Ike with his improved Side-B I think he fits better than ****ing roy. ZSS is a work in progress I love her toss back and forward style I just wonder if her Stuns will really fit in the melee setting after awhile. Imagine teams....ZSS and Puff. Stun-Rest could get quite gay.(not in balancing phase yet though so...yeah I like ZSS though. Lucas (Demo's bottom tier) I think fits well. he seems to be what Marth is to Roy though. now that lucas is here it's like....what the hell do we do with Ness? Sonic I have faith in. No way a character that fast doesn't do well in Melee in the long run. Wolf I'm getting excited for. He seems to be a true spacie and I feel will hold up the tradition of being very good. I like Squirtle s potential so far the most of the Pokemon Trainer Pokemon. He's fast, Agile somewhat hard to follow and has good combo's and set ups. With a good control I can see him fitting in. The Ice-punch seems kinda gay though...but whatever. Charzard I fear when people really start playing like they mean it his lack of quickness may hurt him but if that can be fixed....I like him but this is also personal bias seeing as how Charzard was my favorite pokemon back in the day. Ivy.....**** ivy.Pit(no personal bias at all I promise ). I think of all the flying characters he fits in the most just because he has no stigma(meta knight for example has an epic negative following). He's not the fastest, not the gayest, not the strongest...etc. He's ok in everything and seems to be able to fend off many types of characters and fight from most positions air, ground, center, ledge. He does have epic camping potential...which I think is gay. Aside from that when he is finished being calibrated I believe he'll do well. Metaknight(hides) though a far less dominate version of himself the ideas and general direction of him I believe is very good. I'm not sure he has enough to compete though. It seems like rather than pick him you could just pick Marth or if you needed to fly just pick pit or Zard some others with more reach or projectiles. Still his cape is ****!

*small break to get more soda and popcorn*

Continues....

now the rest of the brawl characters i don't exactly hate just am having trouble imagining them fitting in fully as is.

Main person is Olimar....like how will that thing fit? R.O.B. Those of you that know me know I hate him for just existing. The moment I saw him as a playable character I thought...what a ****ing waist he's like the G&W of Brawl..why not get someone better.(sorry to those who like him. I'm staring at you JC :D) Toon Link I'm just....I think in the end he'll fit in for me it's a matter of identity. What the hell is he? is he Young Link in melee 2? something original...is he even going to be needed now that Link is actually good? ****ty Diddy Kong The bananas are such a big part of his game in brawl but his banana has NO place in a melee setting...sorry. It really bothers me that someone could be slipping on one in finals some day...I just don't think it would translate well...Maybe something can be changed about them idk...any kind of trip to me and most melee fans is just a reminder of brawl and translates to do not want!. Wario I personally LOVE Wario He is such a weird, mr.magoo character that I can't exactly say he doesn't fit it's just a matter of weather or not he'll be good in the end without getting played out and completely figured out in less than a year. King DDD. To keep from being OP'd he has to be slow in most area's almost humorously slow. When the gameplay is solid...how will he fair against some of the better returning dominate characters let alone new/buffed characters? his Waddle Dee's don't seem to cut it as of now, he's a huge target and while he has the power to earn respect I don't see him as that threatening one people figure him out. At least not yet.(however work on him is still fairly new).

*takes a bathroom break* *washes hands, stares at the clock DAMN it's late I should hurry this along*

*returning melee characters*
Fox=good
Falco=Good
Puff=good
Sheik=good but the Side-B returning makes no sense at least as an SD trap. (I'm not for buffing tops but making it so that won't insure your demise would be nice)
Marth is good Although his UpB seem weird and different but still he can grab the ledge backwards now and has a Buffed Side-B.
Peach seems better than before which after watching Armada vids scares me. Falcon Also seems to have upgrades. His Side-b is useful now as well as having better UpB, DownB. and more options overall. Seems good.
Ice climbers......God help them. Ganon I think once again will manage to climb to the top of the decent characters this time with a little extra help improvement may come a bit closer to C.Falcon in terms of tiers but I can't imagine him ever above him. Samus.....so far seem extra ordinary(no not extraordinary) aside from the accidental buffs(tether and Zairs) I don't see much different for Samus and from what I read nobody is sure where to take her right now. Pikachu....I'm not sure I see very little pika and nobody in in the PMBR can play him like Axe does in melee so...it's gonna be hard to say what should be improved. I think aside from having more damage on his juggling moves, no more broken hit-box...the only thing that can be done is to probably increase the range of his grab(like..doubled...seriously). Add some more electric effect to his UpB too. I like that his DownB has less lagg when you hit yourself with it. That's a good idea....aside from that idk. Mario/Doc since they are combined I'll just do them together. Right now I'll say...doesn't seem like a world beater but I like him. Combined and with a little buff Mario is better overall then both Melee Mario and doc.

*glances at the clock again...damn! why the **** am I awake typing this ****!*

*continues*

Luigi is one of my favorite Melee characters With better recovery I think he has potential to do great things going forward. Just think his UpB going upside down is very...ghey. DK is a Boss with the barrel roll. Everything Improved but I still feel he will end up in the same spot as he is in melee in the long run considering his Vertical recovery is still lacking. With so much better on stage options he may get by with bad recovery. Falco's been doing it for years now :D. Link is a problem. He can match Marth in range, and his problem with mobility, recovery, and lack of good combo's at low/high percents on most characters seems to be solved. In the hands of someone like HDL for instance I could see him taking a tournament now. Zelda...good(possibly too good at times but that's been looked at lately). Yoshi, I think never reached his full potential in Melee but buffs can't hurt him especially because he still has no third jump though he gets more high on his UpB now it seems. Even his air-dodge. In a pressure heavy setting the lack of an OoS hurts anyone but with it he'll be invincible OoS which is homosexual. He could be good as long as something is done to balance that out. Perhaps making him able to attack or move faster after putting down his shield could help..idk you yoshi players figure it out. Game and watch....he seems ok with a shield now but I hate him personally so...**** him. Ness....good luck convincing someone to play him when this is completed. Bowser seems like a beastly big guy. of all the extra heavy characters I can see him ****** the most just because of the super armor. Speed and campy **** may get the best of him down the road but...well that depends on the legal stages. Kirby I haven't seen enough of but he at least seems way better than he is in Melee.


ok...now I'm going to lay down now...Happy Holidays everyone.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Nessy Boiiii is legit. PK fire breaks open on shields, and he has all his best aspects from every game along with new, useful utility yo-yo smashes that are great on Oki. I don't know why anyone would play Lucas when Ness is so much more cash.

 

[Shadic]

*giant post*

...Can you use a word other than "gay" to describe... Anything you don't like? You use it in like seven different contexts and it's impossible to glean anything meaningful from what you're saying as a result.

"____'s gay." Why? "Because it's awful."
"____'s gay." Why? "Because it's too good."
"____'s gay." Why? "Because I don't like it."

Unless something pulls out its wang and starts aiming for the nearest arse, can we use another word? Uncreative language with seventeen different definitions/uses means makes for poor communication.

 

[jalued]

Nessy Boiiii is legit. PK fire breaks open on shields, and he has all his best aspects from every game along with new, useful utility yo-yo smashes that are great on Oki. I don't know why anyone would play Lucas when Ness is so much more cash.

totally agree, ness is just fun

 

[Archangel]

...Can you use a word other than "gay" to describe... Anything you don't like? You use it in like seven different contexts and it's impossible to glean anything meaningful from what you're saying as a result.

"____'s gay." Why? "Because it's awful."
"____'s gay." Why? "Because it's too good."
"____'s gay." Why? "Because I don't like it."

Unless something pulls out its wang and starts aiming for the nearest arse, can we use another word? Uncreative language with seventeen different definitions/uses means makes for poor communication.

I used gay 4 times and homosexual once . Just switch gay with words like Unfair, OP'd, Cheap, Disgraceful....etc. and things will fall into place. I have a problem with moves that Stun or freeze someone for any things past the amount of time Falco's laser stuns. The Concern I have for ZSS is that all of her success could be tied to her stuns and well...obviously when you are stunned you can't move. It's different from hit stun at least on of them is anyway. Recovering you can't exactly avoid it and once it hits you you can't do anything. Nobody likes getting wobbled so I can't see why someone would like getting stun/locked to death. As for Pit well. Anyone who saw Pink Shinobi at Genesis or M2K vs Gnes...you know what I fear.

@ ness to be fair I haven't really seen much ness. I don't pay attention to him much either.

 

[jalued]

I guess as a VERY general rule, the less you can interact with the opponent in some way, the more gimmicky some element of that interaction is. Like Lucario doesn't even play like a melee character, or even a smash character for that matter. If you try to play him like a smash character, you can't and you will do very poorly. That lack of interaction makes him one big gimmick. At least IMO.

Don't get me wrong, PM is a HUGE upgrade from Brawl for obvious reasons. But some characters were done better than others. But you definitely need to do something with the characters and stages that gives players a reason to play your game over the original melee. So far most of the stuff is pretty good.

I know this is a bit late

Concerning lucario and other brawl characters not playing like a smash character. Lets go back to the begining of melee:

Sheik was easy, fox/falco was hard and falcon was considered too difficult to play effectivlely (before isai). You could even say that puff still doesnt have that "smash feel" (who likes to watch puff dittos? anyone?)

Without competant tech skill, fox is not a good character, you could even argue that he didnt play like any other character because he relies so much on his shine, nair and upthrow combos. His shine could easily be argued to be a gimick: a 1 frame move that offers guarenteed followups. But it's not because people have gotten USED to it. Your argument with ZSS concerning her sideB is valid if that is her ONLY reliable approach, but maybe people just don't play her correctly yet: Ganon was considered to be garbage initially because he was so slow (before wavedashing and landing was integrated into his metagame).

Melee has been around for more than 10 years, so its unsurprising that players look favourably on a character's playstyle and moveset, and associate it with that "smash feel".
There is no reason why a character such as lucario should not have a new and innovative playstyle just because it is not similer to a previous smash character. This game will have 40 characters, it needs some variety to stay fresh.

Looking at the melee "feel" a bit closer, it seems to me that if a character's recovery is too good, it detracts from the game significantly. No one likes to watch jiggz dittos or peach dittos or even vBrawl MK dittos because they drag out and lose the attention of the audience. The ledge occupancy has helped the situation slightly, but things such as ike's quickdraw recovery drag out games and make them less exciting to watch: 2 minutes per game of ike recovering on castlevanie... no thank you.

I do personally feel that lucario's recovery is slightly too good (because of the downB mainly), but it could be argued that players just require more experience edgeguarding him. Same could be said for edgeguarding any new character (such as wario or ROB), practice makes perfect.
This is where marth gets a bit of a backhand. In melee he excelled at edgeguarding, he was the king that could turn around a match in seconds. Now dozens of new characters have appeared and he has no experienece in how to edgeguard them. But he will get better with practice, new developments will highlight character's weaknesses (maybe ROB has a hard time sweetspotting or wario requires offstage bair to edgeguard, pit can't recover low etc etc).

Basically what i am saying is give it time. There is no way to fully comprehend a metagame without thousands of players feedback (some whiney and unhelpful, but most reasonable). If a character has a serious lack of combo openers or quick moves, then they may need some help but never forget that they are constantly scrutonised against characters that players have come to love and cherish. But in time, i'm sure these new character's will be accepted as well, if people are open to change

 

[Archangel]

I'm not sure I agree with Marth statement. I mean.... edge guarding is the least of your problems anyway. If anything it's everything else that is the problem. Ken's edgeguards on PC and Bombsoldier are still applicable. However neither of them could do to Ken what PP and Mango can do to M2K.

as for everything else I can kind of agree. Melee's Metagame isn't really my issue it's just the general feel. Some character that is not a spacie may emerge as god tier. My concern is picking up a character who feels right, Mario, Link, Falcon...etc. Then picking up someone else who feels like I'm playing...idk something else.

 

[I R MarF]

I think if any adjustments to Lucario should be made, its that OHC should fail if he connects with a shield. He should get punished like the most of the cast for hitting a shield.

 

[shanus]

He already does pitiful shieldstun - its not hard to beat him on shield hit...

 

[I R MarF]

He already does pitiful shieldstun - its not hard to beat him on shield hit...

Oh i see. wasn't sure.

 

[Juushichi]

I think the point of him being able to OHC on shields was to help him not get ***** oos.

Think of it like if a space could not shine to help with their sheild pressure. Marth would probably **** both of them for years and years and years.

Though, back to the gimmick discussion: The more I think about it, the more that things like Peach's floats and both of the spaces shines are pretty strong gimmicks in their favor that they have to rely on. Where exactly would they be if peach couldn't float or FC. In what way would she really be threatening? Onstage? Offstage?

Fox and Falco are inherently decent characters by nature, but without shines I honestly think they're average. Fox seems to have the ability to run away and create damage very fast with combos that still work (oh man, like brawl fox omigod) but Falco turns into an even worse version of his later game counterparts because of the ability to move around his projectile and the lack of utter absurdity that is Brawl Falco's jab in the Brawl environment. Maybe the spotdodge too.

I think the poster that mentioned how "gimmicks" were seen from early Melee to current hold true in general. Things like the shines and even Peaches' FC have become inherent in Melee's environment. They didn't necessarily start that way.

 

[Strong Badam]

I used gay 4 times and homosexual once . Just switch gay with words like Unfair, OP'd, Cheap, Disgraceful....etc. and things will fall into place.

Why do you say "gay" or "homosexual" then? those words are in no way synonymous with the following words you mentioned and it's kind of offensive to people like me.

 

[GHNeko]

ITT: Strong_Bad teaches political correctness.

I think if any adjustments to Lucario should be made, its that OHC should fail if he connects with a shield. He should get punished like the most of the cast for hitting a shield.

Lrn2acceptblockstrings.

Smashers these days. God. Pick up a TFG you guys.

 

[Beorn4200]

Why do you say "gay" or "homosexual" then? those words are in no way synonymous with the following words you mentioned and it's kind of offensive to people like me.

That's why you should spell "gay" as "Ghey" because like it or not, that word actually is synonymous with "cheap" "bad" "annoying" in our culture. Though it is a shame... It's the truth, and to get offended over words or phrases like this, in this day and age is kinda old fashioned. I don't know how many times I've heard words like **** thrown around or ***** during matches.

Anyway... That four stock with link in JC's vids was hilarious.. There was a comment on one of those vids asking if Link had gotten any changes since around the September build.. I for one would also like to know besides those sweet animation changes ... I know the way his bombs work is being tweaked...

 

[Mono.]

I think if any adjustments to Lucario should be made, its that OHC should fail if he connects with a shield. He should get punished like the most of the cast for hitting a shield.

But alot of the cast doesn't get punished just hitting a shield unless the character they're shield pressuring has a good OOS option.

 

[I R MarF]

ITT: Strong_Bad teaches political correctness.

Lrn2acceptblockstrings.

Smashers these days. God. Pick up a TFG you guys.

TBH, I wish every character in the game could shield pressure to some extent. I'm a huge proponent of an offensively oriented game where being on the shielding end is dangerous. I'm just annoyed that in smash, only certain characters (Fox, Falco, Peach and now Wolf) actually make defense dangerous.

I think the simpliest solution would be to give the rest of the cast who cant shield pressure increased shield-damage on all of their attacks. Not copious amounts like Bowser or in an amount similar to marth's shield breaker, but a decent amount that would make shielding more dangerous.

 

[drsusredfish]

this is how i see it with lucario and sheild pressure. You know how no one spot dodges a fighter like fox cause it leaves them open to a fox follow up well thats not true for lucario. rolling and spot dodging would actually screw some of lucarios game up. There's no shame in rolling people. You just have to play lucario differntly than a spacie. You can't use the same strategy on every fighter. take advantage of his need to hit somthing and i assume his longish end lag on moves. when he misses a side b you should be all over him. Don't try to sheild grab him too much jump OoS so when he trys to follow up he whiffs and leave himself open.