Project M Social Thread

[drsusredfish]

The bananas are such a big part of his game in brawl but his banana has NO place in a melee setting...sorry

On diddys bannana why do people feel this can't be in a melee environment? if anything its just another status effect like jiggs sleep or mewtwos confuse. Do you not like it cause it makes ur "so hard and sexy fox" look silly?(not directed at you spam). Banana sliping isn't the same as tripping. its not random and both players can use it. Its from brawl but it doen't mean its too brawly to be in melee. ( I think people just don't like looking like a fool falling for a banana trap)

 

[I R MarF]

On diddys bannana why do people feel this can't be in a melee environment? if anything its just another status effect like jiggs sleep or mewtwos confuse. Do you not like it cause it makes ur "so hard and sexy fox" look silly?(not directed at you spam). Banana sliping isn't the same as tripping. its not random and both players can use it. Its from brawl but it doen't mean its too brawly to be in melee. ( I think people just don't like looking like a fool falling for a banana trap)

I agree. I think it is a very interesting mechanic in Diddy's game, who imo, probably has the most seemless transition from brawl to P:M. His animation don't need any adjustment and he has a great onstage game compensated with one of the worst recoveries imaginable (can't ride walls iirc)

 

[standardtoaster]

Diddy no longer explodes from hitting walls. It's still pretty hard to recover with him though.

 

[GHNeko]

Gonna be playing with SoVa today.

Ill have a stream up if their internet allows. It's not at my house so no godlike neko streaming quality that ***** everything.

 

[Comeback Kid]

Looking at the melee "feel" a bit closer, it seems to me that if a character's recovery is too good, it detracts from the game significantly. No one likes to watch jiggz dittos or peach dittos or even vBrawl MK dittos because they drag out and lose the attention of the audience. The ledge occupancy has helped the situation slightly, but things such as ike's quickdraw recovery drag out games and make them less exciting to watch: 2 minutes per game of ike recovering on castlevanie... no thank you.

I agree so much with this part! Melee = weak recoveries. I noticed a few months ago that some characters were getting crazy good recoveries and was told by Falco to wait till ledge occupancy had been fixed.

Well now that it has, why aren't nerfs happening asap? Link's new recovery is perfect as far as buffing goes, it is better but not insanely so. But why do other guys now rely on great recoveries to make up for other weaknesses? Seems like a HUGE design flaw right now. The problem with fixing this seems to boil down to only those of us on the outskirts of this project are finding this to be such a big deal.

 

[Mono.]

Melee = weak recoveries.

I don't agree with that because by that logic we should just give everyone a terrible recovery, which I think is a horrible approach to recreating melee. And then again some Melee top tier's recovery isn't exactly weak either.

While we can say certain playstyles or specifics aren't entertaining to watch and all because it's "gay" or "gimmicky" or whatever, just completely ruling them out isn't right as I recall, the goal of Project Melee was to welcome all styles of play for a well rounded game while slightly catering to the aggressive nature of the original.

 

[Comeback Kid]

I'm not saying give everyone "terrible" recoveries Kiri. Everyone should have a fighting chance to reach the stage. I'm saying if a character has a recovery that is clearly too good to make up for other weaknesses, it isn't Melee nor is it good design.

Brawl is all about floatyness and free recoveries without thinking. Why would u guys wanna copy THAT?

 

[crush]

Dont argue in tthe project m thread (guise)

Has landing detection been fixed?

 

[Mono.]

I'm saying if a character has a recovery that is clearly too good to make up for other weaknesses, it isn't Melee nor is it good design.

That actually sounds alot like Fox.

 

[Comeback Kid]

That actually sounds alot like Fox.

Ha, but can Fox fly across the entire stage like Ike or DK? i think not.

 

[Revven]

Ha, but can Fox fly across the entire stage like Ike or DK? i think not.

Why would you use DK as an example when his recovery is not actually amazing? In fact, neither is Ike's recovery, Ike's recovery is extremely predictable. He has only two options to recover with, both of which can be very easily intercepted. Not to mention, if he's put at a certain angle offstage, he can never make it back.

 

[Shadic]

I'm not saying give everyone "terrible" recoveries Kiri. Everyone should have a fighting chance to reach the stage. I'm saying if a character has a recovery that is clearly too good to make up for other weaknesses, it isn't Melee nor is it good design.

Yeah, Peach and Jiggs aren't Melee. Samus and Fox have terribad recoveries as well.

You state that we've overbuffed recoveries. Who has too good of a recovery, exactly?

Falcon? His makes sense now. Wouldn't call that overbuffed.
Dedede's? Doesn't even make a hitbox on the way up.
Diddy? Lawl, no.
DK? His actually goes a tad vertical now. Buffed on the same level as Link's.
Falco's? Still bad.
Fox's? It's Melee.
G&W? About the same, but he can attack at the end.
Ganon? The little swipe hitbox is dumb, but we're workin' on it.
Ike? Ledge occupancy nerfed this one. SideB is solid, though.
Kirby? He's Kirby.
Bowser? See: DK.


I could go on.

 

[Mono.]

Ha, but can Fox fly across the entire stage like Ike or DK? i think not.

Phantasm goes far enough.

And you see, the thing is about Ike is that if there is no walls, he automatically has a pretty bad recovery. Take stages like Smashville or Battlefield. If you put Ike in that perfect spot diagonally off the stage, he'll be gimped hard. His recovery is easily telegraphed. The walljump gives him options and he can be pretty gay with it on certain stages. Still, you can gimp him even with walljump shenanigans and/or he'll eventually fall with walljump decay within maybe 20 seconds if I keep at it.

2 minutes of wall jump recovery during an Ike match is a drastic exaggeration.

Edit: Turns out, Falco400's actually a ninja.

 

[Comeback Kid]

Why would you use DK as an example when his recovery is not actually amazing? In fact, neither is Ike's recovery, Ike's recovery is extremely predictable. :|

I know DK's horizontal movement is supposed to make up for his lack of vertical. Ur missing my point. I don't mean to say " look, this is overpowered!" Not at all.

I'm saying "why do some characters have new long-range reach in their recoveries where gravity doesn't matter to make up for their crappiness?"

Why shouldn't guys like Diddy and Mario, great characters with decent enough but not very far reaching recoveries be more the norm?

Yes some Melee characters had better recoveries than others, but now that everybody other than Melee top-tier get recovery buffs like candy it just feels like a Brawlization of the whole mechanic. With far-reaching consequences for the metagame as well.

I think the heart of the issue might be that Brawl characters are generally designed to be more mobile so it feels like the Melee cast need those buffs to compete. I would argue better to nerf the Brawl flyers if that is the issue.

 

[GHNeko]

http://www.twitch.tv/ghneko/

streaming with sova

 

[Vaerix]

I know DK's horizontal movement is supposed to make up for his lack of vertical. Ur missing my point. I don't mean to say " look, this is overpowered!" Not at all.

I'm saying "why do some characters have new long-range reach in their recoveries where gravity doesn't matter to make up for their crappiness?"

Why shouldn't guys like Diddy and Mario, great characters with decent enough but not very far reaching recoveries be more the norm?

Yes some Melee characters had better recoveries than others, but now that everybody other than Melee top-tier get recovery buffs like candy it just feels like a Brawlization of the whole mechanic. With far-reaching consequences for the metagame as well.

It's not like every non-top tier character has fantastic recovery. Or far-reaching. Link's recovery buffs, as I understand it, is to make him a little less hopeless while offstage. Lucario's Down-B only angles downwards to prevent him from using it to get back onstage really easily. DK and Bowser only reach further, I think. They're still every bit as vulnerable. Yoshi got a recovery buff because it was far too easy to prevent him from getting back to stage. Wario got a recovery nerf. Toon Link also got a similar nerf. I'm probably forgetting someone important.

Anyway, my point is, despite the fact that it seems like everyone's getting recovery buffs, it's not entirely true at all. Not like they're game-changing buffs, either. It's still the same game.

 

[drsusredfish]

The recoveries will make the match go longer and people have a problem with that.

 

[9Kplus1]

The recoveries will make the match go longer and people have a problem with that.

Really? I haven't seen anyone complain about matches being too long after LO was cracked and adjusted. Maybe people still can't accept that some characters are good now ?_?

 

[Deleted member]

Though, back to the gimmick discussion: The more I think about it, the more that things like Peach's floats and both of the spaces shines are pretty strong gimmicks in their favor that they have to rely on. Where exactly would they be if peach couldn't float or FC. In what way would she really be threatening? Onstage? Offstage?

Fox and Falco are inherently decent characters by nature, but without shines I honestly think they're average. Fox seems to have the ability to run away and create damage very fast with combos that still work (oh man, like brawl fox omigod) but Falco turns into an even worse version of his later game counterparts because of the ability to move around his projectile and the lack of utter absurdity that is Brawl Falco's jab in the Brawl environment. Maybe the spotdodge too.

I think the poster that mentioned how "gimmicks" were seen from early Melee to current hold true in general. Things like the shines and even Peaches' FC have become inherent in Melee's environment. They didn't necessarily start that way.

from last to first:

-Peach's FC and shines aren't gimmicks because the characters can do other things other than those strategies. If you're particularly good at fighting shine, you still have to beat the rest of Falco, and that can completely change the game dynamic. This differs from say ZSS in PM, who literally cannot play without side B. That move irrefutably defines that character.

Fox and Falco without shines are still WELL above average and excel at MANY MANY things. To say Melee Fox/Falco are only good because of shine is just a good way to look foolish in public IMO.

Peach would still be quite potent without FC because her dominant strategy of camping the middle of tri-platform stages is still valid and largely doesn't even use it. Those mechanics don't define those characters, they simply add depth and are one of many things that the character can do. ROB's air boost isn't a gimmick, it adds depth otherwise to what the character can already do, but that character is not based solely around that one ability. And so on.

This opposed to say Lucario's OHC system, where without it he's nothing/unplayable. I mean, in the technical sense you can play without them, but let's be honest here, it's still trash. Lucario's wannabe fighter stuff is very clearly gimmicky even to people that don't play smash.

 

[Comeback Kid]

The recoveries will make the match go longer and people have a problem with that.

That is very true and I think an important issue to consider. The "feel" of Melee comes from its quick pace often enough. I love how good the characters are, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't go down a stock after a good *** kicking.

 

[Revven]

We've been over this thousands of times already. Match-ups determine the lengths of the matches. If you have an FF'er versus an FF'er (Falco vs Fox) it's GOING to be quick. If you have a Jiggly vs. a Falco, it's going to either be quick or it's going to take a little longer depending on how the Falco plays the match-up (playing it safe vs playing it aggro). If it's Samus vs Peach, what do you think is going to happen? Is it going to be super fast paced and go by in 2 minutes? Or go up to 4 minutes because both characters take a good amount of time to combo/KO?

Recovery has barely has anything to do with match length and it is not a flaw with the game. Get this mentality out of your heads. Melee rarely sees matches with Peach vs Samus or Link vs Fox or hell even Zelda vs Jigglypuff. And why is this? Because those characters in particular (Samus, Link, and Zelda) are ALL not good enough to win a major tournament with. If you want these characters viable, they have to have their own TOOLS to fight back with and one of those tools is recovery for some of these characters. Flat out nerfing recovery across the board just so you can have match length shortened to 2 minutes will only mean Fox and Falco will continue to dominate these characters as again, I state, some of these characters' tools against Fox and Falco is being able to... recover.

I know, it's a new facet to the game! Therefore it's bad!

 

[drsusredfish]

from last to first:

-Peach's FC and shines aren't gimmicks because the characters can do other things other than those strategies. If you're particularly good at fighting shine, you still have to beat the rest of Falco, and that can completely change the game dynamic. This differs from say ZSS in PM, who literally cannot play without side B. That move irrefutably defines that character.

Fox and Falco without shines are still WELL above average and excel at MANY MANY things. To say Melee Fox/Falco are only good because of shine is just a good way to look foolish in public IMO.

Peach would still be quite potent without FC because her dominant strategy of camping the middle of tri-platform stages is still valid and largely doesn't even use it. Those mechanics don't define those characters, they simply add depth and are one of many things that the character can do. ROB's air boost isn't a gimmick, it adds depth otherwise to what the character can already do, but that character is not based solely around that one ability. And so on.

This opposed to say Lucario's OHC system, where without it he's nothing/unplayable. I mean, in the technical sense you can play without them, but let's be honest here, it's still trash. Lucario's wannabe fighter stuff is very clearly gimmicky even to people that don't play smash.

i agree with you on ZSS but with lucario its a different matter. His gimmick doesn't just have one way to beat it since he has multiple options when used. so even if you deal with one aspect of his gimmick he has different ways to apply that gimick. For example, lets say you figured out how to avoid his dash attack to side b. thats only one part of the gimick. he can switch up what hes doing to avoid making that gimmick his down fall. since each of his attacks cancel in different ways you have multiple gimmicks to avoid or deal with. since his possibilies are so vast his gimmick can be described as a playstyle. much like how fox uses shine or nair for different situations. i do agree that without OHC he would be trash but since he does OHC his playstyle is still decent and not completely restrictive way to play when used. the only true way to negate his "gimmick" is to not get hit and that works against any fighter.

With this in mind i can agree that OHC is a gimick but its a realy good wide open gimmick thats only as punishable as the lucario player allows it to be.

 

[drsusredfish]

We've been over this thousands of times already. Match-ups determine the lengths of the matches. If you have an FF'er versus an FF'er (Falco vs Fox) it's GOING to be quick. If you have a Jiggly vs. a Falco, it's going to either be quick or it's going to take a little longer depending on how the Falco plays the match-up (playing it safe vs playing it aggro). If it's Samus vs Peach, what do you think is going to happen? Is it going to be super fast paced and go by in 2 minutes? Or go up to 4 minutes because both characters take a good amount of time to combo/KO?

Recovery has barely has anything to do with match length and it is not a flaw with the game. Get this mentality out of your heads. Melee rarely sees matches with Peach vs Samus or Link vs Fox or hell even Zelda vs Jigglypuff. And why is this? Because those characters in particular (Samus, Link, and Zelda) are ALL not good enough to win a major tournament with. If you want these characters viable, they have to have their own TOOLS to fight back with and one of those tools is recovery for some of these characters. Flat out nerfing recovery across the board just so you can have match length shortened to 2 minutes will only mean Fox and Falco will continue to dominate these characters as again, I state, some of these characters' tools against Fox and Falco is being able to... recover.

I know, it's a new facet to the game! Therefore it's bad!

just for the record i don't think like this but i know someone is.

 

[Juushichi]

I just said that Falco and Fox are inherently good characters, though without them, I feel like Fox is roughly the same as Brawl Fox who has a great grab game, can gimp, has still surprisingly good recovery, puts a lot of pressure on opposing players and both racks damage and kills at more than respectable percentages.

Fox in Melee sans shine loses an important linker, gimping tool, an important oos option that still turns into said linker and more but still retains the things that make him good. Just not great.

Falco I think suffers a lot more because it seems to be around the core of his offensive game. He has amazing abilities to zone, sometimes outbox and out position his opponent from most of the stage away. Sans shine? I feel like he loses a myriad of offensive options that make him extremely potent and removes a great amount of how he actually takes stocks from his opponent. Much like killing being a problem for Falco at mid and high levels of play in Brawl where he is still like 4th best in the game. Surprise surprise.

But, as I look at you post again, we're kind of agreeing about the same thing. I don't really think ZS is useless without Side-B, however I can concede that it very well could be because I haven't had the game in my hands. I can only go off of my experience from vB which is sure to be vastly different.

Jury is still out on Luc to me. I saw Fly play him like an actual character and it looked like it worked, but again I don't really know.

 

[Comeback Kid]

If you want these characters viable, they have to have their own TOOLS to fight back with and one of those tools is recovery for some of these characters. Flat out nerfing recovery across the board just so you can have match length shortened to 2 minutes will only mean Fox and Falco will continue to dominate these characters as again, I state, some of these characters' tools against Fox and Falco is being able to... recover.

I know, it's a new facet to the game! Therefore it's bad!

You make good points Falco. All I ask is the PMBR to consider "how much is actually needed?" on a case by case basis instead of viewing the balance of recoveries as itself irrelevant. That's all. Oh, and maybe not have the Brawl characters fly around so much.

 

[Revven]

You make good points Falco. All I ask is the PMBR to consider "how much is actually needed?" on a case by case basis instead of viewing the balance of recoveries as itself irrelevant.

You're acting like we don't consider to look at a character's recovery when balancing them. Look at a vBrawl character like Squirtle, he doesn't "fly around" (as you put it) does he? No, his recovery is practically trash compared to even Mario's recovery. I could give another vBrawl character example if you want who also doesn't "fly around", like Wario. Recovering is just as important to a character as being able to KO is.

 

[Comeback Kid]

I meant the ones with wings, they def. fly around.

 

[Revven]

I meant the ones with wings, they def. fly around.

Oh so you mean characters that fit the archtype of Jigglypuff? Pit, Charizard? So you want to take away what makes them... unique? Last I recall, those two characters above are still not even considered as "godlike" as Jigglypuff's Bair which that move alone sets people off.

And even then, you're only talking about two-three characters out of how many vBrawl characters? 10-12? Yeah, um, recovery for most of the characters in this game right now is not what's making matches take longer.

I am tired of this complaint about matches taking longer, it is not something people should even be focusing on, it's stupid.

 

[CORY]

This opposed to say Lucario's OHC system, where without it he's nothing/unplayable. I mean, in the technical sense you can play without them, but let's be honest here, it's still trash. Lucario's wannabe fighter stuff is very clearly gimmicky even to people that don't play smash.

lucaryu's ohc isn't really comparable to zss's overb, though. if you "play around" his ohc, aren't you just... not getting hit at all? if you're able to completely avoid getting hit by lucaryu, i think you deserve to win, anyway, since you're probably just completely outplaying him.

i know you can get oos options in between some of his hits, but he can still do mixups on those to start making them risky. i think his ohc is more akin to a shine than zss' overb, in your line of thinking.

 

[Stevo]

i dont check this thread for 2 days and thats when actual important discussion happens lol.

i think umbreon has some valid points. i do think some gimmicks can become non-gimmicks when given time. (see peach's d-smash, which at first glance seems like a powerful gimmick move, but is highly irrelevant in high level play right now. EDIT: sorry i mean you can play around it easy enough now, it is still relevant)

however, going back 8 years in melee's metagame is not a good comparison, even with brand new characters so to speak, because P:M is similar to melee in most respects. I think a player of umbreons calibur will be able to tell pretty well what is actually a gimmick based on playing as and against the character.

 

[Deleted member]

ya i can agree to those. again my experience is limited pretty much only to the MD/VA group.

i guess while we're on the subject, pit and charizard didn't feel gimmicky. they're both hella gay to fight sometimes, but not gimmicky gay lol

 

[Comeback Kid]

Lucario just kicked Charizard's *** on stream and it was a beautiful thing to behold.

 

[iLink]

Is ZSS' sideb really that defining of her? I remember watching some of ghneko's youtube matches and he seems to do fine with minimal use of it. I'm not saying that just from those matches I should form an opinion, but it seems like she has other things going for her then just sideb.

 

[9Kplus1]

Comparing 'gimmicks' to the tools that Melee top tiers use is a really bad argument IMO. It's like saying that Melee Yoshi should be high tier because of DJC. Having a **** ability, attribute, or anything that can greatly argument a character's playstyle doesn't mean that said character's actual concept can be ignored. Ness will be a **** character despite having DJC because he's Ness; Fox will still **** a large portion of the cast because he still has plenty of viable options to choose from. Tossing around the term, "gimmick", using already developed concepts and characters as examples of it won't make this topic budge an inch. If neither spacie could compete nearly as well as they do now without shine, then I'm very sure that someone would've found a method of optimizing the moves that at least clank with shine, over the past ten years; Peach's FC, Falcon's gentlemen's, and Ganon's Fair are other examples of what can be applied to this statement.

 

[Dantarion]

So, about that thing I said about AI. Definetly gonna look into it again.
I plugged up my Wii and USBGecko today.
I also read over my python code for unpacking the games AI into readable script.
While I am doing this moreso for my portfolio/resume, I think Project M will benefit from more findings.
Don't get too hype, but if anything comes out of this stuff, it will be making CPU's use specials better.
For example, right now, Fox/Falco will always pull out their blaster and use it without moving. It is very easy to replace that with a SHL/SHDL script, and thats using the knowledge I have now.

There are many other specials that have been changed and would benefit from altered AI scripts on a percharacter basis.
The holy grail would be tweaking the games global AI, which could completely change the way the AI operates.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

So mow, care to explain what makes you feel that Yoshi is too good or what issues do you have with him?

 

[SNPR]

Gonna stream (melee) with zhu. I know this is the P:M thread but hey come watch us if you're bored >.>
www.twitch.tv/Sniperfox1

 

[Kink-Link5]

Again, I only call something gimmicky if it's something dumb like Samus U-smash firing out 4 effects and freezing the opponent. Or like, if Ness's Yo-Yo's grounded the opponent. Or if Luigi's D-tilt made the opponent trip.

 

[drsusredfish]

snpr becarful with posting streams of non P:M stuff the mods can get finicky with stuff like that

 

[jalued]

So, about that thing I said about AI. Definetly gonna look into it again.
I plugged up my Wii and USBGecko today.
I also read over my python code for unpacking the games AI into readable script.
While I am doing this moreso for my portfolio/resume, I think Project M will benefit from more findings.
Don't get too hype, but if anything comes out of this stuff, it will be making CPU's use specials better.
For example, right now, Fox/Falco will always pull out their blaster and use it without moving. It is very easy to replace that with a SHL/SHDL script, and thats using the knowledge I have now.

There are many other specials that have been changed and would benefit from altered AI scripts on a percharacter basis.
The holy grail would be tweaking the games global AI, which could completely change the way the AI operates.

good luck with the AI