Comeback Kid
Smash Champion
I know it wasn't your idea, you were just trying to make it better.
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Project M Social Thread
- Thread starter Project M
- Start date
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ClinkStryphart
Smash Journeyman
Monk what song is that is playing on this video? its catchy.
http://www.youtube.com/user/nonstandardtoaster#p/a/u/0/2Oq6LoCqLcc
http://www.youtube.com/user/nonstandardtoaster#p/a/u/0/2Oq6LoCqLcc
krackizwak
Smash Cadet
I really like Link's shield block on walk. While I personally can't see myself using it often, having that option is always nice(though I don't know why people are pushing this reflect stuff). I also Love the Sonic poses, they fit the character so well....kinda sad how that kinda stuff wasn't in the game in the first place.
I do have a idea for Luigi I would like to present. Has anyone considered changing is fireball to stay out longer? My Goal with this is so that he could potentially Wavedash and use the fireball as an approach similarly how Ryu and I think Guile can in SSF4. I Know ZSamus has something similar, but having the wavedashing central to the idea would make the approach very Luigi like.
I do have a idea for Luigi I would like to present. Has anyone considered changing is fireball to stay out longer? My Goal with this is so that he could potentially Wavedash and use the fireball as an approach similarly how Ryu and I think Guile can in SSF4. I Know ZSamus has something similar, but having the wavedashing central to the idea would make the approach very Luigi like.
hotdogturtle
Smash Master
- Joined
- Feb 15, 2007
- Messages
- 3,503
MonkUnit
Project M Back Roomer
It's a song from one of the Higurashi games. The name is at the start of the vid.
It's Wandering Worlds Lead to Heaven from the Higurashi Kai visual novel.
Ryu and guile dont their fireball as a means to approach. I get ehat you mean though.
I can see link's walk have some practical uses like against aurasphere or samus' charged shot. Maybe stuff like mario or luigi's fireball. Would charizard or bowser's fire breath go around it?
Vaerix
Smash Journeyman
Link needs a crouchstab first.
Also, does link block projectiles while descending to a crouch? I feel that'd aid approach.
JediKnightTemplar
Smash Lord
Seriously, always? I guess if you looked hard enough you could find a couple idiots who think Link sucks, but the way you say that implies every Link main complains about Link's balance in this thread. If anything, people have been complaining about Lucario (though in the opposite sense from what you're talking about), not Link, though they have no reason to complain about him either. Think before you generalize.
krackizwak
Smash Cadet
Oops, well that's embarrassing...it's been awhile. Could have sworn I have encountered it before. I must be going crazy.Ryu and guile dont their fireball as a means to approach. I get ehat you mean though.
Comeback Kid
Smash Champion
First awesome suggestion so far in this convo, 10+. Link is great and so are Link players, I've just noticed a certain "Link still needs help" vibe, but granted I may be remembering earlier project: m complaining that doesnt reflect how people now feel about Link in his current build. So sorry about that if anyone felt personally slighted.Link needs a crouchstab first.
Dingding123
Smash Journeyman
Well, from the portion of this thread that I've skimmed through I can really tell that no one sees what I see in Link, which is to be expected; I mean, he's only been low tier at BEST in every single smash game. Because of this, we're all better off with me giving a shorter explanation:
Link has been buffed enough in P:M to where people who pick him on a whim and have little to no experience with him can do about as well as they can if they do the same with any other character that the P:M dev team has worked on (this sentence confused me as well when I reread my post xD sry).
Melee Link, on the other hand, you cannot just pick up and do well with. However, if you have deep knowledge of his mechanics and his moveset, you can do really well with Melee Link. Unfortunately, he's just a little too slow overall so he's never topped tourneys. Nevertheless, people like Aniki, Germ and Lord HDL have proven his potential.
Now, look at P:M Link in comparison. Not only has his old moveset been buffed out the wazoo, but he's got a really legit bow and arrow now too - it's like he has a third projectile all of a sudden, and it's even better than it was in Barlw to boot. On top of all this, he can arrow-cancel like he can in Barlw and bombjumping is not only better because of aerial glide-tossing but is easy-peasy as well. Also, his grab is now much more viable because it can grab people who are in midair.
TL; DR: It's not the inexperienced players I'm worried about. If experienced Link players could do well without all of the above, however, imagine how well they can do with it.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
I think you forget that other characters have been buffed as well which might just negate how Link can do well too. lol.
hotdogturtle
Smash Master
- Joined
- Feb 15, 2007
- Messages
- 3,503
Doesn't that apply to any mid- or lower-tiered character who got buffed in P:M? Making them not suck isn't going to automatically make them godlike, and pro character mains will always make the characters look better than they will to the average player.
Link mains always think they're entitled to something. Unlike we Ness mains, who have always been at the forefront of reasonable buffs.
Shadic
Alakadoof?
I actually laughed.
Supreme Dirt
King of the Railway
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2009
- Messages
- 7,336
My character got the amazing buff of no longer being in the game, so I don't know what these Link mains are complaining about.
Shadic
Alakadoof?
Toon Link in Project M is far better than Young Link could ever dream of being.
Dingding123
Smash Journeyman
If you either picked up and played with Melee Bowser or if you practiced with Melee Bowser like Gimpyfish and DJNintendo have, you would know that he sucks. However, no Melee Link mains think he sucks. Only those who have just picked him up and played with him would, because he has no B&B stuff like Marth's fair and fsmash or Shiek's ftilt and fair. You need to understand all of his moves equally in order to do well with him.
It's not so much that said Melee Link character mains are pro as it is that they are the few competitive players who actually took the time to practice with him and unlock his full potential, and go to tourneys.
vids for reference:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yI0tKlnhzA (skip to 2:25 and listen up to at least 3:25)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltqgP-Xgceg&feature=channel_video_title
Supreme Dirt
King of the Railway
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2009
- Messages
- 7,336
I know, it's so awesome.
crush
Smash Master
random thought:
i think when buffing characters, the last thing that should be buffed is the recovery.
i think when buffing characters, the last thing that should be buffed is the recovery.
Dingding123
Smash Journeyman
I like that idea. Good recoveries lead to very long and drawn-out matches like Mango vs. Armada, and it slows down the gameplay. However, recoveries should only be so bad, or else it's as if a character doesn't have a recovery at all, and trying to use would be just delaying the inevitable.
EDIT:
No, I definitely acknowledge it. Bowser and Ness, for example, have been buffed a BUNCH, just like Link. However, they were bottom tier in Melee, and Link was already low tier.
IMO, if Link is to be balanced in the long run, he's going to HAVE to be hard to pick up and play with.
Stevo
Smash Champion
It's amazing how much worse Link's recovery is without his longshot (melee grapple recovery)
Dingding123
Smash Journeyman
Comeback Kid
Smash Champion
I'm down for adding a universal recovery nerf if it means faster matches and less high percentage shenanigans.
45 seconds per stock should be the norm imho.
Who else agrees?
45 seconds per stock should be the norm imho.
Who else agrees?
crush
Smash Master
Ledge occupancy, backwards ledge grabs, and ledge grab ranges play a big factor too imo.
Comeback Kid
Smash Champion
Yeah, but that all takes some skill and mindgames to pull off against good comp while "press up b and im right in the stage's safety zone" requires no thought often enough until high percentage range.Ledge occupancy, backwards ledge grabs, and ledge grab ranges play a big factor too imo.
Stevo
Smash Champion
Revven
FrankerZ
We're not nerfing recoveries without ledge occupancy, reverse grab boxes, and so forth being properly dealt with unless it's totally called for (as in we built the recovery for the character like ROB's Up B and Side B). Universally nerfing recoveries without gameplay mechanics set in place is like shortening death boundaries on every stage universally....
Neither makes for a good decision, also, you all need to get over match length. There are tons of match-ups in Melee that can go for the same length of time that are non-space animal infested. You're all too used to Sheiks, Marths, Falcons, and space animal match-ups that are 99% of the time under 4 minutes long.
Neither makes for a good decision, also, you all need to get over match length. There are tons of match-ups in Melee that can go for the same length of time that are non-space animal infested. You're all too used to Sheiks, Marths, Falcons, and space animal match-ups that are 99% of the time under 4 minutes long.
Speaking of Toon Link, he was one of the favourites after Charizard in my Project M set-up at Smash Till You Crash, the recent changes done to him really made an unanimous approval; Even I like Toon Link now, and I just hated his guts before. 
Comeback Kid
Smash Champion
Let's tackle the problem a different way then: What if moves just did a point or two more damage almost across the board and characters got KOed faster as a nice bonus effect? Any problems with that working out?
Dingding123
Smash Journeyman
As long as you're facing forward after the bomb explodes, you should usually be close enough to auto-sweetspot hookshot (
) or upB. If not, bomb jumping again and upB'ing is a much better option than the longshot being out of reach of the stage will ever be.
Revven
FrankerZ
Yes, that is another really silly idea. You would be buffing top tiers unnecessarily in the process as well. And receive complaints about damage %s not being exactly Melee for the top tiers.
Just quit focusing on match length, it's really not a problem right now as most of you are making it out to be. The gameplay mechanics are not all set in stone at all (meaning not done), especially in regards to the ledge game.
Melee has the same thing going for most of the cast, the thing is, everyone plays higher tiered characters. I'm wondering, did you ever watch the Taj vs Armada match where it was Peach vs Mewtwo? That's a pretty good example of a technically fast looking match but is marred by Mewtwo being disadvantaged against Peach. It went on for over 5 minutes and people were actually *****ing about that. I hate to sound like a jerk but you have to wonder why that is and that's because most people are used to watching Fox vs Falco, Falco vs Falcon, Marth vs Fox, Marth vs Falco, Sheik vs Marth, Sheik vs Falcon, Peach vs Fox, and etc. Even Pikachu vs Fox is still quite lengthy at times, but people don't ***** about that because Axe does really flashy things.
Let me make my point clear: A match can still be very entertaining if the players are playing technically well and still go on for longer than usual. I found Peach vs Mewtwo at Genesis 2 to be very entertaining because of Taj's Mewtwo yet the commentary and people in the crowd watching there were *****ing even though Taj was playing pretty technical. They were so engrossed with match length that they pressured him to go Marth only to see him lose in under 2 minutes...
I could go on other reasons as well for not attacking match length but I have other things I need to do right now.
Stevo
Smash Champion
ok look, I get what you are saying, but the thing is you can just hop on the ledge before they go to hookshot (which is very obvious given how short it is) and then force them to up b. Even if they boomerang before hand, you can still grab the ledge with little effort to force the up-b.As long as you're facing forward after the bomb explodes, you should usually be close enough to auto-sweetspot hookshot (
In melee you ALWAYS had the option of grapple or up-b, regardless of if they were on the ledge or not. I realize this is a universal issue with tether recoveries, but to not accept that Link's recovery is worse is simply wrong, imo. The primary issue is sitting on the ledge at appropriate times kills the hookshot now. Even if people you play against don't do it well right now, they will learn eventually and you will see.
You also could hookshot really low on the stage from quite far out in melee, giving you a more distant recovery.
Bomb jumping is useful, but does not replace the longshot.
Shadic
Alakadoof?
Not to mention the fact that increasing damage output would mess with KB stats, disproportionally improve characters that need more hits to rack up damage, hitlag, shield damage, etc.
Stevo
Smash Champion
if you guys hate long matches so much why not just play a 1 stock match.
no coding required.
no coding required.
Bomb jumping puts you in hitstun... Which makes you vulnerable to off stage edge guarding... MK, rob, jiggs, they will all **** you up after a bomb jump. Though I would personally say it is worse if only slightly.As long as you're facing forward after the bomb explodes, you should usually be close enough to auto-sweetspot hookshot (
Dingding123
Smash Journeyman
Hmm...this whole time I've been trying to convince people that Link received a few too many buffs because when I play with him when this is released I want to be known as a good player and not a Link player, and I have my mind set on maining Link. Also, I don't want Link (or any character, for that matter) to ever be good enough to receive a bad rep like MK has from Barlw, even partially. But now that I think about it, I want to see more people main link more than either of those things.
So you know what? Leave him as is. Let him be easy to pick up and play with - for now, at least. Just understand that in the future, he may need some nerfs.
EDIT:
So you know what? Leave him as is.
Let him be easy to pick up and play with - for now, at least. Just understand that in the future, he may need some nerfs.EDIT:
Very true. While I am trying to point out that his new recovery is hardly worse than it used to be, bomb jumping and the new auto-sweetspot tethers definitely won't replace the longshot or Melee tethers and have their flaws.
Shadic
Alakadoof?
If Link ends up needing any real nerfs, I'll eat Link's hat.
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