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Project M Social Thread Gold

Vashimus

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 1, 2013
Messages
3,308
Location
Newark, NJ
The big problem with linear Zelda games is that the series as a whole was designed to be non-linear and then Nintendo dropped the ball after the first game by making the games increasingly more linear. They said that Super Mario Bros was supposed to be linear and Zelda was supposed to be the exact opposite and they really changed this after only a few years.

I like non-linearity, exploration, and "figure **** outf" methods myself, but what they were trying to do is stop Zelda games from being what I call "guide games". Like the first two Zeldas for instance. I don't just mean it's a hard challenge without a guide. I mean there is no way - virtually impossible even - that any new player will be able to complete either game without any outside assistance whatsoever. They reached a good median with Link to the Past, and Ocarina of Time added Navi to help newer players NAVIgate easier, as annoying as she could be. But it really shouldn't get past that point in helping.

Zelda focused more on exploration, but I never understood the non-linear part. There's still a certain order in the way things need to be accomplished to progress, and character give you enough hints that you won't get TOO lost most of the time, especially since, again, Zelda games are getting more focused on story. Me personally, I don't need an amazing story to have a good experience with a game, a lot of people didn't either back then in 1998.
 
Joined
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OKC, OK
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TW wasnt made for the wii specifically so the controls werent as precise. it was made with the GC in mind. wii was an after thought when they needed a zelda title for the wii
 

Pwnz0rz Man

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 30, 2008
Messages
1,862
Location
Nowhere, Kansas
3DS FC
1950-9089-5761
I like non-linearity, exploration, and "figure **** outf" methods myself, but what they were trying to do is stop Zelda games from being what I call "guide games". Like the first two Zeldas for instance. I don't just mean it's a hard challenge without a guide. I mean there is no way - virtually impossible even - that any new player will be able to complete either game without any outside assistance whatsoever. They reached a good median with Link to the Past, and Ocarina of Time added Navi to help newer players NAVIgate easier, as annoying as she could be. But it really shouldn't get past that point in helping.

Zelda focused more on exploration, but I never understood the non-linear part. There's still a certain order in the way things need to be accomplished to progress, and character give you enough hints that you won't get TOO lost most of the time, especially since, again, Zelda games are getting more focused on story. Me personally, I don't need an amazing story to have a good experience with a game, and a lot of people didn't either back then in 1998.
I agree that the first two games were guide games. The first is not among my favorites at all since the map sucks and it feels frustrating to find your way around without already knowing where you're supposed to go. I feel that Link's Awakening's map system was perfect for making the game accessible to players without needing to hold their hands throughout the entire adventure, like they did in Ocarina of Time and A Link to the Past to a lesser degree.

Being forced to play the game in order and even numbering dungeons in an order is not a good idea when the games are supposed to be non-linear. I believe that they could easily give players hints on where to go without forcing them to go to point A in order to get to B later on.
 

DMG

Smash Legend
Joined
Feb 12, 2006
Messages
18,958
Location
Waco
Slippi.gg
DMG#931
Oh silly plum, I reached 100 likes eons ago. GL trying to catch my trophy points too unless ur a HYLAIN + MIC9001 nerdy

My new avatar perfectly explains it all I think
 

Plum

Has never eaten a plum.
Premium
Joined
Jun 28, 2008
Messages
3,458
Location
Rochester, NY
I'm a skinny white kid in his 20's who tries to keep in good shape, wear fashionable clothing I find in stores, frequent all the "cool" bars, and I keep a trimmed beard and fresh hair style that says "I think I'm cool but I'm not a hipster." So people be all, no way this guy is nerdy enough.
But on the inside I play table top RPG's, MtG, go to my local comic book shops every Wednesday for the new releases, play mainly Nintendo and PC games, watch e-sports for entertainment, and spend more time in a collection of forums than I do on "traditional" social media websites. So I think I'm nerdy enough for the challenge.
ALRIGHT LET'S DO THIS.
I'm only 700 behind or so...
 

Vigilante

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 11, 2010
Messages
1,813
Location
Quebec
I can't get behind this. The fact that so many people had issues with the controls is evidence that there is a problem. I couldn't get Link to swing the way I wanted even slightly consistently. Maybe there was something I could have done to fix it, but whatever it was, it wasn't self-explanatory. Am I too tall? Not a big enough room? Is there something wrong with my console/controller/sensor bar? I never found out, but any of these reasons are feasible. If a button was broken, I would have known immediately. And there aren't many other wacky things that could go wrong either. I'm not saying I'm totally against motion control, but I think it has a way to go before it can compare with traditional controls. And Skyward Sword isn't a great example of that potential.
I needed to quote this, I love how you worded it.

It is a fact that a lot of gamers, including highly-experienced games had trouble with this control scheme. Nobody has managed to make motions work with at least 99% precision, a precision that can be obtained using a well-maintained classic controller. As far as I know, the Wii is meant to be put in a large room, which I don't have the ability to. I'm basically still living with my parents, saving money so I can get my own place. My living space is a single, small, but neatly organized bedroom. Furthermore, the Wii requires that you position yourself exactly on the right level with your TV. Calibration will be off if you're a bit too much to the right or left, standing too upright or sitting to low.

Another issue is handedness. I know this doesn't bother the majority of individuals, but I'm left-handed. I have to put up with a skill barrier because I had to use my non-dominant hand to do things I would normally not do with it. Believe me, if I was given a sword to swing and I actually wanted to live, I would put it in my left hand. it gets more insulting when Link was traditionally left-handed before and they ret-coned that. Not even giving us a lefty option really pissed quite a few lefties off. Then again, that was a problem lefties had to content with on a regular basis when playing Wii games. To add to that, you need to position yourself more to the right of your TV, having to look at it at an angle if you're playing the game with your left hand, du to detection. Because of that, you need to recalibrate your system every time you change games.

Furthermore, Wii Motion plus required recalibration every time your aim went too far off the boundaries, and I notice that the weaker your batteries get, the more often you had to recalibrate it. Motions that are too swift don't get registered, and as a self-trained fighter and an ex-martial artist, I find it rather strange that I'd have to restrict and slow down my movement to the pace of the game rather than it actually adapting to yours. It's if you pressed a button too fast and the input didn't register.

It is also a fact that Miyamoto himself recognizes that motion Zelda was not as well-received as he initially thought it would: http://ca.ign.com/articles/2012/06/08/e3-2012-miyamoto-talks-zelda-wii-u

I have no problems with the existence of motion controls. Really, I don't. But they should always be optional, like how the gyro can be turned off in OOT 3D.
 

The_NZA

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 7, 2007
Messages
1,979
The moment motion controls are optional in Zelda is the moment they shouldn't be in the game. If the game can't be designed around it, then it truly is a gimmick.
 

Kati

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 22, 2010
Messages
1,471
I needed to quote this, I love how you worded it.
As far as I know, the Wii is meant to be put in a large room, which I don't have the ability to.
Actually, I'd say that there is a limit to how big the room can be. If I simply sit back and relax on my couch, the sensor can't properly pick up my wii mote. It honestly fades in and out, forcing me to lean forward at all times when using a wii mote. If anything I would say that the wii wasn't designed with north american households in mind. I have even seen 3rd party motion sensor bars that boast about having extra range. For an item that comes with the console, I find it silly that one should have to upgrade it.

From what I gather, microsoft made a similar blunder with the kinect, but it was reversed (assuming I'm not the only one who has range issues with his motion sensor bar). The kinect requires a minimum distance between the user and device, and I remember reading that this was met with some backlash in Japan due to how cramped many living spaces can be over there (apparently).
 

Strong Badam

Super Elite
Administrator
Premium
BRoomer
Joined
Feb 27, 2008
Messages
26,560
How can you have never played a Zelda game, especially on a forum dedicated to a Nintendo game.
I don't even comprehend.
The only Legend of Zelda game I have ever played is OoT, which I stopped playing after I got to Jabu Jabu's belly. I'm 100% certain I would have had the motivation to complete it and all other Zelda games had I tried like 10 years ago, but I really don't have the motivation to play video games anymore. Just Project M now :/
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
I'm not saying I'm totally against motion control, but I think it has a way to go before it can compare with traditional controls. And Skyward Sword isn't a great example of that potential.
I guess my game was just blessed by Hylia then because my motion controls worked well, and nobody else I know irl had an issue with this aspect of the game. I live in a fairly small apartment btw, so I can't even say that I had the advantage of a very large room.

I'm sorry you guys didn't have the same experience. I truly feel like it was the motion controls that boosted the game from "meh" to "okay" for me.
 

Mr.Jackpot

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 30, 2011
Messages
1,727
Location
WA
The only Legend of Zelda game I have ever played is OoT, which I stopped playing after I got to Jabu Jabu's belly. I'm 100% certain I would have had the motivation to complete it and all other Zelda games had I tried like 10 years ago, but I really don't have the motivation to play video games anymore. Just Project M now :/

Jabu Jabu's Belly put me on hold for OoT3D for a few months, but I picked it back up afterwards. I'm not really sure if I'm liking 3D Zelda more than the 2D ones.
 

Strong Badam

Super Elite
Administrator
Premium
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Messages
26,560
I didn't get stuck or anything, I just got bored. I was progressing through the dungeon and just didn't feel like continuing at all. That was around 8 months ago.
 

Kaye Cruiser

Waveshocker Sigma
Joined
Aug 11, 2009
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Switch FC
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Well since I don't have a single clue what's going on here anymore, I guess I'll just add some music to play along with the insanity. ¦D

 

B.W.

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 27, 2006
Messages
2,141
Location
Darien, IL
Skyward Sword's controls were fine. Everything was responsive for me.

Which is a shame because the enemies didn't have a lot of variety with how you had to fight them. They kind of could have, but parrying was so easy, and if you were patient it's all you ever had to do.

One day I might do a shield-less run to see if makes the game any more enjoyable, but we'll see.
 

KayB

Smash Master
BRoomer
Joined
Jan 2, 2013
Messages
3,977
Location
Seoul, South Korea
Skyward Sword's controls were fine. Everything was responsive for me.

Which is a shame because the enemies didn't have a lot of variety with how you had to fight them. They kind of could have, but parrying was so easy, and if you were patient it's all you ever had to do.

One day I might do a shield-less run to see if makes the game any more enjoyable, but we'll see.
Same, I didn't have a problem with it either and I have a relatively small room. Skyward Sword had many issues. Controls weren't one of them.
 

HyperrCrow

Emotional Reality
Joined
Mar 1, 2013
Messages
1,422
Location
Boston, MA
The bird flying controls were crap though. I don't care how used to it you get, it's just weird and incredibly clunky.
Agreed. Although I do remember TP having a similarly annoying bird sequence.
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I love TP and all, but the control issues I had with this "minigame" back in the day had me on the brink of tossing my remote at the TV.
 

Shadic

Alakadoof?
Joined
Dec 18, 2003
Messages
5,695
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Olympia, WA
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Shadoof
Good news everybody, Toon Link is back in Smash 4 and it looks like Project M managed to "declone" him more. :alakadoof:
 
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