Project M Social Thread Gold

[Spiffykins]

This, this this and a million times this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOtN_kMTnxQ

Your avatar looks looks like a Titan and it's creeping me the **** out

 

[The_NZA]

He's still considered in the bottom half of the game.

And I used "pretty bad" kinda loosely, admittedly. It'd be like saying Mario is "pretty bad" but that's kinda how much more balanced Marvel 3 is, even most of the relatively bad characters are still pretty good. There's still the garbage at the bottom of the bin (like Iron Fist and ****) but in general it's way more balanced than people give it credit for.

I'm just saying you can balance really high and you can make a very well rounded cast. Marvel did it. Anime fighters do it. Project M can do it. You don't need to water down S and A tier characters because all the buffed vets and Brawl characters aren't as good as the Melee top tiers. You need to put them up there with them and KEEP them up there with them. We've had 3 characters so far that were small tweaks from perfectly balanced and all of those were thrown away. It's just completely backwards ideology vs just making everyone good.

Everyone is happy when their character is good. Some people are NOT happy if their character is purposely made worse. One ideal makes top Melee players happy, the other doesn't. There wouldn't be people whining about characters like (properly tweaked) 2.1 Ike/Lucario and 2.5 Sonic, or spacies, if their characters were just as good as well. The game is balanced either way it's put together.

I just can't see the reasons for balancing down from Melee when there isn't really a real advantage to it.

I don't see any proof to believe that Marvel 3 was "balanced around the top". I can't think of one character in Marvel who, like fox or falco, has amazing kill moves, unclassed speed, did things the game did not seem to be built around, and was so powerful you couldn't put them in a losing matchup (unless it was against an opponent with cute gimmicks like sonic). The closest thing we had in Marvel was Phoenix, which if you remember, actually DID become very bad for the game. She was in every pro's team, and this was in a game where there were already built in mechanics to prevent people from getting the 5 bars you needed to unlock dark phoenix (smash didn't have built in tools to prevent/defend/contend with shine wave dash). For those who aren't familiar with Phoenix or Marvel, I've gone ahead and copy pasted below a post about pheonix's balance from SRK.com (FGC's smashboards). Go ahead and replace every iteration of "Phoenix" with "Fox" and see how true it is:

With Capcom's insistence on keeping Dark Phoenix in the game, this was a tricky proposition. By nature, Phoenix is already walking on a tight rope when it comes to balancing. The character revolves around a high-risk, high-reward situation. Dark Phoenix was a powerhouse in Fate of Two Worlds because, on paper, she needs to be. Phoenix is a glass cannon taken to the highest extreme. On her own, a stable character with a lot of options and respectable damage output, but her vitality is so low that the first hit being a game-ender is a very real possibility. Keeping this in mind, Capcom had to carefully select elements of the character that stuck out as problems. Nine months later...

The point is, they nerfed her in Ultimate Marvel . Capcom 3. They did it for the good of the game, and close to everyone used her but was happy to remove the ridiculous aspects of her character. That implies to me that their design philosophy isn't about bringing everyone to the best possible level because, definitionally, there is only one categorical way to be the best––One playstyle that is better than the rest. In the case of Marvel, it turned into everyone stockpiling bars, abusing dark phoenix with xfactor. That's what I've been trying to tell you: If everyone becomes the best, everyone will be more similar in play style than different because, just as tiers dictate, there are certain "favorable" stats in Smash. Mobility being one, and instantaneous invincible combostarter kill moves that stop being risk on frame 3 being another. I guess we can throw a **** ton of super armor on every slow character to contend with Fox tier, but will that really be good for the game?

But let's go back to this fundamental comparison you put forth. MvC3, I'd argue is balanced more like PM (around an A class rather than an S+ class). But really, it's a bad comparison to make anyways because the genres are so ****ing different. In mvc full characters in the low tier have utility in teams as assists, only coming out to fight when they have to. Combofiend is well known for his Shulk/nova, Dr. Light, Spencer team, where Dr. Light––a low tier's–– only purpose is to assist in TAC infinites, assists, and his DHC.

That's the thing: MvC3 is a game built around mechanics outside of the brawl itself. Maybe your character has a very good assist, and that's where they shine. Maybe your character has a great super and its worth taking up a slot to DHC into it (it's okay if they barely hold their own in a head on fight. You just need to bring them into the fight when you want to). Some characters have amazing stats in X-factor, and some characters just have a ton of health and it wasn't about winning the fight in the first place––rather it's all about getting bars for your other characters. That's where a game like this has no comparison to smash, where it's all about the fight first and foremost.

On top of that, just X-factor, dude. Xfactor. I promise you if X-Factor and team stocks were in Melee, every low tier would be viable as well. Imagine in Melee a 4 stock v. 4 stock where we each pick 4 separate characters to play each stock and after a stock a new character respawns. Imagine I have Ness come out fourth against your Fox. Let's say I use Xfactor, which in smash probably would have given all my aerials no lag and tons of power. I'm suddenly advantaged in that matchup because my ness on xfactor is S+++ tier for 30 seconds! You see how that mechanic just makes tiers less relevant more generally?

 

[Minor Pandemic]

A thought on the neutral air dodge discussion: If Melee players hardly ever use the neutral air dodge, and Brawl players really like the idea of the neutral air dodge retaining momentum (and of course still putting you into special fall), might it be okay to let it retain momentum? I know "because melee" is probably the line of thinking here, but it seems to me like it's something small that can help the pool of PM players draw from the Brawl community in addition to the Melee community, and it has a small enough effect on the like-Melee gameplay preference to not dissuade Melee players. Any Melee player who actually says, "I don't want to play PM because neutral airdodges aren't exactly the same as Melee," is obviously fishing for a reason not to like it anyways, rather than actually considering PM for it's merits and demerits

 

[The_NZA]

A thought on the neutral air dodge discussion: If Melee players hardly ever use the neutral air dodge, and Brawl players really like the idea of the neutral air dodge retaining momentum (and of course still putting you into special fall), might it be okay to let it retain momentum? I know "because melee" is probably the line of thinking here, but it seems to me like it's something small that can help the pool of PM players draw from the Brawl community in addition to the Melee community, and it has a small enough effect on the like-Melee gameplay preference to not dissuade Melee players. Any Melee player who actually says, "I don't want to play PM because neutral airdodges aren't exactly the same as Melee," is obviously fishing for a reason not to like it anyways, rather than actually considering PM for it's merits and demerits

I really just don't like improving too many defensive options in this game. If i have to track someone's air dodge as they fall in addition to accounting in the other ways they might AD, it becomes much harder to punish. In an air dodge, one of the inherent weaknesses is that you are stuck up there, and your opponent has a chance to respond.

 

[Minor Pandemic]

I really just don't like improving too many defensive options in this game. If i have to track someone's air dodge as they fall in addition to accounting in the other ways they might AD, it becomes much harder to punish. In an air dodge, one of the inherent weaknesses is that you are stuck up there, and your opponent has a chance to respond.

That's fair. I hadn't thought of that. Good point.

 

[TreK]

I really just don't like improving too many defensive options in this game. If i have to track someone's air dodge as they fall in addition to accounting in the other ways they might AD, it becomes much harder to punish. In an air dodge, one of the inherent weaknesses is that you are stuck up there, and your opponent has a chance to respond.

Both airdodges have their weakness, actually. The Brawl one's is that since you keep your momentum, you are going to end up having a very predictable trajectory.
Basically, airdodging in Brawl is as bad an answer as it was in Melee, it just took us a bit of time to figure out how to counter it.
What I'm worried about is not that we'd give a strong defensive option, it's that we'd give another one, thus expanding the mixup possibilities of the juggled player, which makes the game a bit more forgiving and slightly lowers the snowball/momentum effect.

But the thought of it still interests me somehow. Maybe we'll have to start working on 'Project One Unit' to see this happen lol

 

[Juushichi]

I don't see any proof to believe that Marvel 3 was "balanced around the top". I can't think of one character in Marvel who, like fox or falco, has amazing kill moves, unclassed speed, did things the game did not seem to be built around, and was so powerful you couldn't put them in a losing matchup (unless it was against an opponent with cute gimmicks like sonic).

Vergil, Vergil, Vergil, Vergil and Vergil. His weakness of "being susceptible on incoming without meter or not having amazing strings without meter is very heavily reliant on not having meter... which isn't as much of a thing.

Lesser version, I guess see Doom? For a point character, maybe see Zero?

A lot of the discussion about those in the know in terms of Marvel 3 currently is that the meta is becoming a lot more like Marvel 2. Sure, you have the Alukards and **** who are running Iron Man for some reason (and I love that), but you still have Zero May Cry, blah blah vergil, blah blah strider.

Also Dr. Strange is far from a low tier character and Combo has been running She Hulk only for fun recently. Even he (and working for Capcom, he is barred from entering all majors) isn't really a good example. The only real good DHC character that is weak that people switch into is Storm and only Dios-X (runs Doom point and I think Dormmamu, both A-tier characters) and Justin run her. Justin is an anomaly in general.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

Wait, is that really why I haven't seen Combo at anything lately? That's a damn shame, he was one of my favorite players, I didn't realize him getting a job at Capcom meant that.

 

[The_NZA]

Vergil, as I understand, doesn't have moves that defy the game. He just has supers that are very good in terms of screen coverage, and creating walls around him, and amazing links into them (really, who doesn't in that game have amazing combos). Regardless, its a dumb game to bring up in comparison to PM because, like you said, Vergil's weakness involves him not having meter (he's got great combos, supers that are easy to DHC into and stand on their own, makes good use of xfactor, is a good assist). Guess what Smash doesn't have: a meter system.

Characters have to fight mano y mano, no tempo advantages or bars involved. Its raw immutable properties paired against eachother, and in that world, the extreme highs are too good and centralizing, and the extreme lows are too bad and uncompetitive. If Smash had tempo based things like meters/xfactor/dhc/multiple treammates, then fox wouldn't nearly be as bad for the game (although xfactor fox is ****ing terrifying). But this is a game where extreme mobility, uncharacteristically strong killmoves, and 1-frame shines that excel at EVERY PURPOSE (except for camping) produce such a consistency of results that they should be toned down. If you try and buff everyone else, it's just going to be silly––brawl - levels of silly.

I can imagine a Bowser where every move has light armer and most have medium-heavy, a ganon with a down b cancelable into jump, a Jiggs with a frame 1 roll out that can be canceled with a jump, a link with a biggorn sword, a fox with a frame 1 invincible move that kills at 0%, you get the picture.

PS: Could we get a mode in the final version of PM where we can have multiple characters in a stock game? 4 characters for each player in a game? That would be HYPE.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Dios-X is running Doom/Storm/Sent, Juu. That's been his team since Vanilla (iirc).

Smooth Criminal

 

[_OraNoS_]

Doesn't Dios-x also use Wolverine? and did Fanatiq drop Storm, too?

Could we get a mode in the final version of PM where we can have multiple characters in a stock game? 4 characters for each player in a game? That would be HYPE.

this sounds cool (but complicated)

Anyhoo, I came to ask if there is an official reason for the unreleased characters being still unreleased and wondered if anyone could direct me toward an answer. thanks

 

[DMG]

Samus has bugs out the ass

Olimar is hard to balance and probably hard as **** to tune Pikmin properties

Yoshi is a Dinosaur, they're extinct he's not coming back

Kirby is being made cooler so give it some time

Ice Climbers are currently looking for Han Solo in Carbonite

 

[Yeroc]

Coding limitations. We aren't finished building some of the core functionality of the last 5 unreleased characters.

 

[trash?]

watching sig speedrun on twitch

ppl are spamming FrankerZ in chat b/c of leffen complaining

<3

 

[ValTroX]

So, can anyone add the sfx code to the gct and post it here? Here it is http://forums.kc-mm.com/index.php?topic=61460.0

 

[MarioAnIke]

The socializing may resume.

I am having problems with Classic Mode in Demo 2.6. Every time I fight Charizard the game freezes. Has anyone else had this problem? How can I fix it?

 

[Minor Pandemic]

I am having problems with Classic Mode in Demo 2.6. Every time I fight Charizard the game freezes. Has anyone else had this problem? How can I fix it?

Project M is focused on multiplayer and so there a some bugs in single player modes that haven't been addressed yet. I'd guess that this is one of them.

 

[FireBall Stars]

Was reading some older posts from the previous thread about some stuff about Low Tier City using 2.5b instead of 2.6 despite it's being released a few days before. I want to give some dev insight on this.

We do try to avoid releasing new version only a short time before big tournaments, we wanted to release 2.6 as fast as possible due to a variety of reasons, such as to allow more tournaments to use it and generate more useful feedback. In the end we could only release it a few days before LTC, and since it was released too close to the tournament, they chose to use 2.5b instead.

When a new/update/character/stuff is added to a game and tournaments occurs only a few days after or in the day after, it's usual for people to still use the previous version for the sake of consistency, it's perfectly normal, people don't feel comfortable in tournaments when they're playing a game they don't know the changes so much yet and that has a new character they don't know how to fight yet. I also don't recall any PMBR members complaing about the decision, in fact we were thinking it was a good decision, with just the bad part of not being able to collect tournament data for 2.6 yet and people still having to deal with problematic 2.5 stuff.

We believe the TOs knows what's best for their tournaments and we'll won't go against them in any way, and we'll try to aid them in all ways possible, the stage striking feature being one of the consequences of that support. We'll continue minding tournaments when deciding the time to release a new version. But if this scenario ends up happening again for a reason we cannot control, we encourage you to do what you think that will be better for your tournament, if that is using the previous version, so be it.

 

[DMG]

??????

Dude, I was at LTC. We used 2.6. I'm really confused by your post lol

 

[Minor Pandemic]

Captain Falcon's aerial side-B is now a spike. Captain Falcon still goes into special fall after side-B.
I spent a good hour and a half trying down/forward/backthrow -> runjump past -> Side-B back towards the stage and I just couldn't make it work on anyone.

Was the change to a spike really only to punish bad edgeguards harder?

I really, really want to kill people with Aerial Raptor Boost. A lot. I want to dunk people with Falcon, but I don't think it's possible if I can only do it coming back towards the stage and I NEED to land on stage after it.

 

[SpiderMad]

Not certain but I think it's been a spike since the original 2.6. They should have put marks for the 2.6b stuff

 

[DMG]

Pandemic: Instead of running past them, try to Side B at them from onstage/near onstage, hit them and then weave your body back quickly. You won't be facing the edge, but that's the only real way to land it so don't bother flying past people and trying to hit them while coming back to the stage. I'm pretty sure you can combo it out of Dthrow at varying %'s if they don't DI away: example being like Sheik or Marth or someone afraid of the DI away options Falcon gets on them at mid/higher %'s

 

[Minor Pandemic]

Can you really make it back to the stage after it pops you up and past them? I'm all for trying it

 

[DMG]

Well you weave back. You should be able to maybe??? This is gut feeling, but I know you can hit people going one way and drift back the other. Dunno if it saves you if you are further out. My usual choice is to not even bother going for it though, and to just read the DI initially and punish it with something else.

 

[Bryonato]

http://www.twitch.tv/vgbootcamp

man look at how ****ing useless Wolf's shine is! it's so cc'able and terrible without that invincibility framEEEE

 

[GaretHax]

??????

Dude, I was at LTC. We used 2.6. I'm really confused by your post lol

Some people felt that the PMBR were purposefully leveraging their superior knowledge of 2.6 to win large tournaments by releasing the game without a changelist shortly before sed tournaments occurred. It sounds like an excuse to me, and a rather insulting one at that, but some people really got their jimmies rustled when top-level players, who happen to be PMBR, performed exceptionally well. Doesn't make any sense to me, in fact it just seems childish, oh well.

 

[hotdogturtle]

Brawl air dodge was in the very early builds of Project M (I'm talking like day 1 preview trailer). It was removed later on for being highly abusable under Melee physics (for example, some characters could drop from the top of Battlefield to the bottom in a single air dodge, completely safely).

 

[Rarik]

Some people felt that the PMBR were purposefully leveraging their superior knowledge of 2.6 to win large tournaments by releasing the game without a changelist shortly before sed tournaments occurred. It sounds like an excuse to me, and a rather insulting one at that, but some people really got their jimmies rustled when top-level players, who happen to be PMBR, performed exceptionally well. Doesn't make any sense to me, in fact it just seems childish, oh well.

FireBall Stars said that LTC used 2.5b instead of 2.6. That's why DMG said he was confused

 

[FireBall Stars]

Thanks for the corrections, even though in the end my post used outdated information, the statements regarding to TOs freedom and how the PMBR respects it, stands.

You can tell I'm not very active in SWF, I apologize for the confusion caused by my post.

 

[SpiderMad]

Completely forgot to back-up my textures on 2.6 to 2.6b, x_X

 

[mYzeALot]

Spider all you need is Shun's House of Pancakes :D

 

[GunBlaze]

Based Project M Back Room, I downloaded, and Falcon wasn't there.

 

[trash?]

why is it so hard to find good BRSTM themes aaaaagh

I was going with a theme of nujabes/samurai champloo for smashville but most of the songs in this list have been taken down

 

[DMG]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlTvWvfEMxE

Use that. For every stage.

 

[trash?]

I am sincerely going to make the BRSTM theme for final destination "every 80s pop epic ever"

WHERE HAVE AAALL THE GOOD MEN GOOOOOONE
AND WHERE AAAARE ALLLL THE GOOOOOODS

 

[SpiderMad]

Am I wrong or are vocals in brstms/Brawl music impossible to hear

 

[Kally Wally]

I don't know about the default music, but I have a vocal BRSTM that's fairly audible. In the heat of a match, rocking out isn't always your first priority.

 

[Paradoxium]

Buffing everyone else is not at all a silly notion, unless you feel like every character is the best they could possibly be?

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

Buffing everyone else is not at all a silly notion, unless you feel like every character is the best they could possibly be?

Where do you draw the line at buffing everyone though? Should everyone have some overpowered or invincible move that they base their game on and confirm kills off of at any percentage? Should P:M give up on making a game with a realistic balance in mind and just make Project Minus instead?

 

[Paradoxium]

Where do you draw the line at buffing everyone though? Should everyone have some overpowered or invincible move that they base their game on and confirm kills off of at any percentage? Should P:M give up on making a game with a realistic balance in mind and just make Project Minus instead?

Did I say buff everyone into oblivion? I said the best they can possibly be but use common sense, I meant the best they could be without being ****ing broken.