Project M Social Thread Gold

[Pwnz0rz Man]

Did I say buff everyone into oblivion? I said the best they can possibly be but use common sense, I meant the best they could be without being ****ing broken.

Fair enough, but how do you realistically balance everyone around two characters that have an invincible interrupt/combo starter/gimping move, while staying true to the move set that they have been already given, while also not going crazy and causing more problems than you fix in the first place?

I figure, by removing the invincibility on that 1 frame, they used the most common sense solution to their problem.

 

[DMG]

I'm OK sorta with the super buff philosophy, but only when it's done for everyone quickly and consistently. My main issue with it is that it's likely a few "batch" characters at a time will be buffed and tested, and for a very long time the game would be toxic and unfun with the godly few and the "Old Squirtle" characters would get left behind. The other issue is that to make characters on level with spacies, or truly competitive vs them MU wise, you are probably going to introduce unfun traits that are also duplicated throughout the cast. Like multiple characters with blazing mobility and tech chases like Falcon Sheik Marth, multiple characters having strong Uthrow or Dthrow CG's, ez mode edgeguarding, etc. You completely lose the feel and personality of a character because they get blunted by the holy hand of buffs.


What's the difference between God Marth and God Ike?


















Ike fights for his friends

 

[Paradoxium]

Fair enough, but how do you realistically balance everyone around two characters that have an invincible interrupt/combo starter/gimping move, while staying true to the move set that they have been already given, while also not going crazy and causing more problems than you fix in the first place?

I figure, by removing the invincibility on that 1 frame, they used the most common sense solution to their problem.

I don't remember ever saying that I disliked the invincibility nerf, I might of but aside from that I liked the nerf. I move that comes out on frame 1 doesn't need invincibility.

 

[The_NZA]

Buffing everyone else is not at all a silly notion, unless you feel like every character is the best they could possibly be?

Why dont you reply to my actual posts instead of throwing around random non-sequiters. Honestly, why do I even respond to people in detail.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

I don't remember ever saying that I disliked the invincibility nerf, I might of but aside from that I liked the nerf. I move that comes out on frame 1 doesn't need invincibility.

You didn't directly, I assumed that you were at least semi-pro keeping spacies the same because you'd mentioned buffing everyone else in order to keep them the same. If that's not what you meant, then it's my mistake and I apologize.

I don't think anything that comes out that fast should be invincible either, especially not something that sets up so many things. If everyone was balanced around invincible shine, it sounds like it would overpower everyone else like 2.1 Ike, Lucario, and 2.5 Sonic.

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

Am I wrong or are vocals in brstms/Brawl music impossible to hear

Every single song in every single stage in Brawl has a different volume value, using a brstm over one spot then moving that exact same brstm over a different song can have extremely different results, though you can change that with codes.

 

[Paradoxium]

Why dont you reply to my actual posts instead of throwing around random non-sequiters. Honestly, why do I even respond to people in detail.

I responded to your post, but I'm not gonna quote your long ass essay on an in depth analyzation of shine characteristics.

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

You didn't directly, I assumed that you were at least semi-pro keeping spacies the same because you'd mentioned buffing everyone else in order to keep them the same. If that's not what you meant, then it's my mistake and I apologize.

I don't think anything that comes out that fast should be invincible either, especially not something that sets up so many things. If everyone was balanced around invincible shine, it sounds like it would overpower everyone else like 2.1 Ike, Lucario, and 2.5 Sonic.

Invincibility doesn't do much to spacies one way or the other. How many times have you clanked with an attack that lasts one frame with a tiny hitbox?

 

[trash?]

I responded to your post, but I'm not gonna quote your long *** essay on an in depth analyzation of shine characteristics.

then why do you expect to be taken seriously when you can't even have the decency to listen to the conversation property

cut that out

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

Invincibility doesn't do much to spacies one way or the other. How many times have you clanked with an attack that lasts one frame with a tiny hitbox?

Okay, then I have a question. If invincibility doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things for spacies, why does it matter to so many people if it's removed? Is it not basically the same thing even without invincibility?

 

[Yung Mei]

i never actually noticed the 1 frame invincibility on shine until today, i dont mind it, but sometimes if you shine fox/falcos upB when its starting up, the reflector visually doesnt come out and it looks like the opponent is getting hit by nothing, its hilarious

 

[Paradoxium]

then why do you expect to be taken seriously when you can't even have the decency to listen to the conversation property

cut that out

I read his entire statement, I listened to the conversation. I responded to it. The only thing I didn't do was quote what he said.

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

Okay, then I have a question. If invincibility doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things for spacies, why does it matter to so many people if it's removed? Is it not basically the same thing even without invincibility?

Yup, it's about the same, outside of really close situations and TAS runs/performances, unless Melee players can somehow improve reflexes and/or find new uses for one frame of invincibility in the distant future. Spacies as a whole are overrated because players like M2K can waltz in and wreck PM tournaments with characters that would get them wrecked by lower tier characters in Melee tournaments.

In other news, the test for the new version of Super Smash Brothers Crusade is out, featuring Ganon with a few sword attacks, Ice Climbers with desyncing, Marth, and Phoenix Wright among other characters and physics overhauls with traction, edge cancelling, wavedashing, and 6 player matches, and other things. I haven't messed around with it for too long yet but it already feels like it's surpassed SSF2.

 

[DMG]

???

I don't understand what you are saying at all. When M2K shows up for PM, I've seen him go 90% Fox. Other Melee people tend to be playing the same characters. I'm legit confused what you are saying: Melee people aren't waltzing in with new characters and freely bodying the world, and the new characters being used probably wouldn't be getting bopped by Melee low tiers (Armada Pit, Leffen ZSS might lose to anything but that's an unspoken rule, etc)

Like clarify that sentence down for me and explain why Spacies are overrated. If M2K was good enough to just pick Squirtle and win, that seems irrelevant to Spacies entirely. That's not even what's happening though (from what I notice. I don't pay attention to M2K on a daily basis, sue me if I missed his one or two joke sets where he went Wario and only used Side B or something silly and won). People are pretty consistently proving why Fox and Falco are kings.

If anything, Spacies are overrated because we are fudging the true potential of other characters, which seems moot because Fox will probably still individually beat them 1 v 1.

 

[Giygacoal]

Capcom has also formally announced that they have no plans on revisiting the game, as the lion's share of the original team went to work on other projects for the company, and Marvel is stingy with renewing their licenses (supposedly).

Yeah, that really, really sucks... However, Yoshiro Ono informally said at the San Diego Comic Con that a balance update is (at the very least) under consideration since they realized the game needs some fixes after watching EVO, and that fans should continue to discuss ideas for possible changes... and also that they "don't have any ideas for additional content". LOL. Anyway, he probably said it to get the crowd to shut up about Marvel for a minute, but it's better than the complete voidness from the past couple of years. A new version with the same price system as Ultra, a few new characters, and a balance update would be fantastic, though.

Now if only Darkstalkers could make a comeback...

Wait... What would the update to an "Ultimate" edition be called? :/

 

[DMG]

Thank god it won't be the Super Deluxe Pony 5000 Version

That version belongs with Satan

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

Ultimate Marvel Vs Capcom 3 Super Turbo Championship Rainbow : Mark of the Millennium, The Fate of Two-Worlds, Infinity Gauntlet Infinity Gem Edition

 

[Yung Mei]

* reloaded

 

[MarioAnIke]

Project M is focused on multiplayer and so there a some bugs in single player modes that haven't been addressed yet. I'd guess that this is one of them.

Thanks for your reply. I guess it's just something I'll have to deal with.

 

[The_NZA]

Buffing everyone else is not at all a silly notion, unless you feel like every character is the best they could possibly be?

Here's why I don't think this adequately responds to everything I said, which by and large was that "buffing characters to fox and falco levels in smash would be a herculean task homogenizing the cast because the most favorable traits in smash exist bar none in fox and falco. Fox and falco are experts at camping, lockdown, speed, aggression, mobility, and 1frame combostarter, killer, invincible defense moves.

IF you look at the rest of melee top tier, they mostly resemble Fox and Falco in that they can try and compete in similar spaces (speed/mobility) or have strange gimmicks that keep them viable (and they still all are on the losing ends of things). Sheik, Marth, Captain falcon are basically all capable of a type of rushdown aggression abusing mobility and dash dancing. The rest get by on silly gimmicks: Peach's dsmash invariably has great priority, a guaranteed enormous amount of percent on spacies, and is one hair away from overcentralizing her play. IC's are there because, well, wobbles/desync gimmick. Jiggs makes the list because well...her mobility keeps her out of getting hurt, and rest is her version of shine.

How do we bring a character like shiek, marth, or cfalcon more to Fox's level while giving them unique playstyles from Fox? Give shiek and cfalcon a shine so they can counterpressure? Give marth even MORE range on his sword, So he's completely obnoxious? How about Peach? Give Dsmash invincibility frames and make it so you can jumpcancel out of it? That'll be fun for the rest of us.

Obviously, this is me guessing potential ways to make them compare to the silliness of shine, usmash, uair, falco dair, and laser, but frankly fighting falco is a pain in the ass already. I don't want every character to resemble falco and fox, and I'm afraid given how good mobility, safe aggression, and camp/lockdown are in this game, the only playstyles that will compete are in those areas.

Imagine some of the newcomers and trying to bring them up to fox/falco level. How do you make Ivy as good as fox/falco? Make razer leaf more obnoxious than SHL, and maker her charge solarbeams easier so they play a role similar to jigg's rest (since she's a slow spacing character, she's going to need VERY obnoxious tools to survive)? Or you could give her super armor to counterplay Shine (does anyone want that?).

This is my point. Mobility is everything in Smash. Low frame high priority moves without any commitment are very good in smash. Sonic had both and was the best in Smash. Which brings up an important thing: Sonic. The melee players who want to never change the silly aspects of Fox/falco are all for buffing the rest of the cast. And when it happens, and it brings about silly results like 2.5 Sonic who for all purposes has HIS OWN version of a unique shine (mobile ball of spin) and great mobility, and awesome recovery, and very good tilts––everyone melee pisses and moans. "This isn't what a smash character is supposed to be like, wah wah wah".

Well guess what: A smash character isn't supposed to kill you at 80% with a running 5 frame smash, with the second fastest run of his game, with the best dash dance in that game, with an equally likely chance to spam a 1 frame invincible move that combos into said smash, that only leaves him vulnerable on frames 2-4. BUT that is the game we inherited, and if you want to contribute to that tradition, get ready for a lot of dumb **** like Sonic, 2.1 ike, and a marth with a fsmash the size of DDD's ftilt. Because THAT is effectively bringing the rest of the cast to spacies level.

And this post was all in response to basically a non-sequiter claiming to adequately stand in opposition to all of the above.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

I'd rather deal with a bunch of A+ tiers like marth or or sheik than the sheer brokeness of melee fox or 2.5 sonic or 2.1 Ike. Otherwise, the game ends up looking like a total ****fest like mugen.

Or, if people really think that fox isn't op, then pmbr should change the movement mechanics in someway that melee players can't hop in amd continue without having to relearn a bunch of stuff.

 

[ELI-mination]

Amidst an argument I had recently with several closed-minded melee players, one of them actually said that "dash dancing and avoiding are counters to shine". Like......
Not getting hit by shine is a way to avoid getting shined. OMG really!?!?!? No ****, bro. Tell me more.

Progression of arguments against these kinds of people:
"Laugh at P:M with me!" -> "You didn't laugh? You must be a scrub." -> "You place in tournaments? Must not be real players there." -> "Money match you? Nah I don't money match scrubs" -> "By now I sound pretty bad, I better talk about how I don't actually take this seriously." -> "Anyway this game is a joke guys, Idk why you care so much" -> "I guess my ignorant attempt at getting people to support my ill-informed view on Project M didn't work, I better stop trying and just continue saying the same **** in private instead"

 

[The_NZA]

Or, if people really think that fox isn't op, then pmbr should change the movement mechanics in someway that melee players can't hop in amd continue without having to relearn a bunch of stuff.

I don't agree that changing the movement just so some people who can play the game, now can't is a good thing. They should change fox and falco and the melee vets as much as is good for the game. If that means buffs to cfalcon, Jiggs, marth and peach, i'm all for it. If it means nerfs to fox and falco, go ahead.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

I don't agree that changing the movement just so some people who can play the game, now can't is a good thing. They should change fox and falco and the melee vets as much as is good for the game. If that means buffs to cfalcon, Jiggs, marth and peach, i'm all for it. If it means nerfs to fox and falco, go ahead.

while I agree with you on changing the melee vets, I didn't mean that they couldn't play the game. One of fox's inherent advantages is the fact that his metagame is so developed beyond everyone else, as fox basically became the only viable character in some environments, because if a god fox is at a tournament the only way to beat him is to use a godlier fox.

 

[TreK]

Ultimate Marvel Vs Capcom 3 Super Turbo Championship Rainbow : Mark of the Millennium, The Fate of Two-Worlds, Infinity Gauntlet Infinity Gem Edition

Or UMvC3STCR:MotM,tFoT-W,IGIGE

For shorts.

 

[trash?]

ok I modified my GC controller but. I don't think the R button is supposed to be completely stuck like it is right now

help

 

[standardtoaster]

ok I modified my GC controller but. I don't think the R button is supposed to be completely stuck like it is right now

help

Assuming you are trying to remove a spring, use this. http://smashboards.com/threads/any-cool-gamecube-controller-modifications.335701/#post-15461034

 

[trash?]

it's not working.

I am awful at this

 

[Oro?!]

I don't agree with the Fox semantics. There was 1 Fox in top 8 at EVO. If every character in PM is buffed to a point where a buffed Ganondorf can win, who I personally believe is the worst character in the game, then most if not all characters should have the tools to beat Fox. He is not some flawless demon.

 

[ELI-mination]

I think there is a pretty common misconception on that view. The key issue is not that spacies are "too good for people to beat". That is NOT the issue.
The issue is that their design only appears to make sense because we're used to it, but it is a painfully embarrassing design. If they were brand new characters introduced into P:M with those properties, like all their hitbox sizes, shine, speed + power balance, etc., then everybody would laugh at how "janky" they are. And there would certainly be balance changes applied.

Hell, I know a lot of melee players who actually think PAL spacies are more logical substitutes for NTSC spacies, and that says a lot considering the reaction to far far far far more minor changes like removing invincibility from shine. PAL melee top tiers are much more balanced, and you don't see a bunch of people whining about that because its an official patch to melee by Nintendo for the European version of the game. The only reason this causes any distress is because the game is not official and the developers aren't official developers or something, and/or have some kind of biased reputation one way or the other.

 

[MarioAnIke]

I fight for my friends...

 

[trash?]

I'm pretty sure this is entirely a problem out of my control. the R button is just messed up

this is probably what I get for not just spending 15 bucks on getting someone else to do this for me

 

[Hylian]

Nerd Rage Pie Crews if anyone is interested:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kB0Y-gzxNLI

 

[standardtoaster]

what exactly are you trying to do canon

 

[trash?]

aaagh I'm so awful at this

I think I stripped one of the trigger screws while I'm at it so I can't put the spring back in even if I wanted to

and the loose analog stick would require a far more proper replacement than I could actually ever do

rip

 

[Minor Pandemic]

Do you guys think Meta Knight would be more or less powerful if he stopped wearing oven mitts?

 

[trash?]

those are mitts of justice, son, don't hate

I tried messing about with my gamecube controller and-- wait the R button is suddenly working

...

I FIXED IT!!!! I DID IT

 

[Oro?!]

When all is said and done, MK will be top 5-6 in this game along Peach/Sheik/Marth if he doesn't get massively nerfed.

 

[GaretHax]

I honestly wouldn't mind PAL Spacies though maybe a middle-ground between NTSC and PAL would be best? Honestly people really exaggerate when they talk about fox for some reason, his frame data is good because all of his moves are average or better. I take that back, it isn't just his moves, nearly all of his properties are average or better, though he is lighter than pikachu: Jumpsquat is the same as shiek, fastfall is slower than falco/n, nair's range isn't as awesome as people seem to think, yes shine is stupid lord shut up about it though please (I actually don't mind the 1 Fran of invincibility missing and I clash with **** all the time with shine /shrug), acceleration is tied with Marth, jab is fast but i think it is tied for either first or second place in speed, horizontal aireal control/mobility is actually tied with Falco for being the worst in melee, etc. for ever and ever. The reality is that Fox is good because all of his moves are useful and work well together, that combined with his particular properties as a character really make something scary. Without the shine he would probably be okay, though he would be an insanely campy, laser based character, probably still B or A tier however /shrug. The reality is he doesn't compete well enough to deserve all the exaggeration. And yes ELI we have had this discussion before the design of the character doesn't fit in smash, IIRC you admitted you liked it overall, but that it is just plain stupid in smash, or at least invalidated complaints about other characters having stupid moves or designs. I'm not debating that, I can't since I agree with it. However the silly exaggeration has to stop M2K did frame analysis, if people really want to see how all his moves stack up they should check it out. (Also yes usmash is good, pika's is better, shiek's sweetspot is better, Sweetspot marth usmash is close too iirc, also tipper fsmash kills pretty early too I hear. Gimps also exist, just about every character can do it, Fox's shine happens to be very good at gimping, but so are all of shiek's aireals, marth's aireals, actually I could go on for way too long with this Nvm.) The only point I'm trying to make is that Fox is not some leviathan-juggernaught only capable of being defeated at the hands of the PMBR coders. He can be beaten, period.
I'm not going to argue on the legitimacy, or lack-thereof, of his moveset as I have my own , admittedly unique, view on that.
Just my .02 though
Mk wesome, dude is fast, mobile, good at gimping, tech-chasing, PMBR did a great job with him, though he still seems pretty powerful when played super-campy and passive.

 

[Sanity's_Theif]

So I've tried working around Link's messed up boomerang, I thought it wouldn't matter much but it's gotten me killed a few times already, now we gotta wait till 3.0 comes out before we can really use Link again, how could you let that slide Hylian!?

On another note, Metaknight's up-airs.... DI doesn't seem to work or is it me? Anytime a good player gets below me with him, it's just up air -> up air -> up air -> up air -> up-B -> Star KO