Project: M Snake MU Thread. (3.0 Currently)

[The Milk Monster]

Any thoughts on the Fox matchup as Snake? I regularly play Project M with my brother who is around my skill level, and he did say that it looked very difficult for Snake, as Fox's speed would just blind him before he has a chance to get his bearings together. I'm curious to know if Snake really does have troubles against Fox, or if I'm just simply playing the matchup wrong.

I personally have trouble with it too, because Fox is able to approach Snake so fast it's difficult to get going. One good grab on Fox could make or break the match, tbh, but, if you're not super patient and cool under pressure, it's a very difficult match up indeed.

 

[idol]

I think I got a grasp on the Marth MU. I'm now having trouble vs Link. Our top 3 all play Link. Help please?!

 

[Arrow (Kyle)]

I think I got a grasp on the Marth MU. I'm now having trouble vs Link. Our top 3 all play Link. Help please?!

Against link, I like to camp back and play patiently. As soon as I see an opening I go for a quick chain grab into sticky then go back to a more laxed play style and let the Link feel the pressure and force themselves to mess up just from the sticky being there. 'Nades are go to stop their approaches from my experience as well as a tranq dart just to interrupt their them, if it they short hop it. Also, they have almost no punish for when you go for a fair spike if you're predicting a tether ledge grab. Even if they Up-b you'll be sent back onto the stage/right towards the ledge and can up-b into a fair again and should give you a quick stock.

 

[Juushichi]

@ Professor Pro : I noticed you back throw I think it was Leffen or Fuzzy and they waited to firefox (dipping below ledge height so you couldn't tranq). I believe that most of the time they are going to go high. Do you think you'll be able to lob a grenade possibly at the high firefox. What do you think?

 

[idol]

Against link, I like to camp back and play patiently. As soon as I see an opening I go for a quick chain grab into sticky then go back to a more laxed play style and let the Link feel the pressure and force themselves to mess up just from the sticky being there. 'Nades are go to stop their approaches from my experience as well as a tranq dart just to interrupt their them, if it they short hop it. Also, they have almost no punish for when you go for a fair spike if you're predicting a tether ledge grab. Even if they Up-b you'll be sent back onto the stage/right towards the ledge and can up-b into a fair again and should give you a quick stock.

I've tried camping....but rang and bombs just destroy my grenades/dowsmash and limit my mobility. If I camp, they camp harder...Since Link can have triple bombs plus rang

I didn't realize you can chaingrab link lol...liek I said I just get camped ):

At what % does chaingrabbing work? Is it a guaranteed c4?

 

[Arrow (Kyle)]

I've tried camping....but rang and bombs just destroy my grenades/dowsmash and limit my mobility. If I camp, they camp harder...Since Link can have triple bombs plus rang

I didn't realize you can chaingrab link lol...liek I said I just get camped ):

At what % does chaingrabbing work? Is it a guaranteed c4?

iirc CG goes up to 35% or so. Might want to get someone to double check that. C4 is guaranteed, if not tranq into c4 works well on link or even dair into c4.

 

[Professor Pro]

@ Professor Pro : I noticed you back throw I think it was Leffen or Fuzzy and they waited to firefox (dipping below ledge height so you couldn't tranq). I believe that most of the time they are going to go high. Do you think you'll be able to lob a grenade possibly at the high firefox. What do you think?

Theoretically, yes.
But practically, no.
Fox has way too many options and angles with his recovery, and you will have to be very precise with the grenade to react and hit a moving Firefox.
I'm pretty sure it could work in a few situational positions, but it wouldn't become a standard edgeguard.

 

[Juushichi]

Ah, I see. Yeah, I figured about as much... but when I was watching you vs the EU Foxes it was a thought that came into my head.

Good job at BEAST, wish you would have beaten Armada. You'll have him next time. : )

 

[Darkshooter]

Yeah, that will be a helluva sight to see...

 

[Toronto Joe]

How does Snake do vs MK or Lucas in PM? any advice ?

 

[FlashingFire]

In my limited experience playing Denti's MK in friendlies two and a half months ago, the matchup isn't exactly pretty. He's got a similar problem as he does against Marth (the sword), though it's a bit shorter so he's more likely to get hit by shield dropped grenades. MK is considerably faster than Math though, and his combo game against Snake is pretty mean. Bair edgeguards are annoying too. The upside is that MK is a bit easier to combo than Marth due to his higher falling speed.

I haven't played against a good Lucas, though I hear that MU is pretty bad.

 

[Toronto Joe]

yeah i play squirtle snake and zss and it seems like none of them have an answer for MK/Marth. Snake feels like he has the most potential to do well though

 

[alphabattack]

DO you guys have any tips for the snake Ike matchup? I always find Ike's quickdraw to be really hard to get around.

 

[FlashingFire]

Placing Dsmash mines and having grenades out will force Ike to reconsider using QD to move around. I believe he can space a Fair to detonate it safely, but it's somewhat risky. Keep yourself mobile, and remember that you can crouch under his grab. That's a free sticky if he misses (especially since the gut reaction to missing a grab is probably shield, which doesn't prevent him from getting stuck), or maybe a grab or up-B. Also, tranqing Ike mid-QD will not only send him to sleep, but also make him slide into your open arms due to the momentum that carries over.

Overall, both characters get massively rewarded for grabs. Snake gets Uthrow chaingrabs, sticky follow-ups, and Fthrow/Bthrow > mine setups, while Ike gets a Dthrow chaingrab and combos off of basically every throw, depending on percent.

 

[The Milk Monster]

How does Snake do vs MK or Lucas in PM? any advice ?

In my experience at a tourney recently, and hours and hours of practice against Lucas, MK is a tough MU for Snake, but, I felt like Lucas was pretty cut and dry. I was able to outcamp Lucas, and stuff his approach every time. And I can usually just crawl under PK Freeze, lol, which is always fun.

 

[DavemanCozy]

I've noticed Snake's grab range is pretty ridiculous. Is it larger than Marth's in 3.0?

 

[DMG]

No

10Martha's

 

[FlashingFire]

His standing grab range is tied with Charizard's for 6th-longest non-tether grab.

 

[DMG]

I think D3, Bowser, and DK are way up there. Then Marth, then Snake and everyone else. I think people would be surprised by Wario's grab range too

 

[FlashingFire]

Can't forget Roy. His grab range is nearly as large as Marth's.

 

[jtm94]

Hello Snake thread:

Please help me fill this out all, trying to complete it as moderately accurate as possible.

I know some MUs won't be agreed on, if there is enough disagreement they can be left blank and we will ask the character on the other side.

I filled it in based on my moderate knowledge of some characters, but I don't get to face every char a lot, or use every character at the optimal level.

green: advantageous
light green: slightly advantageous
grey: Even or tbd
yellow: slightly disadvantageous
Orange: disadvantageous

 

[alphabattack]

Does anyone have any tips for the Lucas matchup? I find that I don't do well getting juggled by his crazy combos.

 

[FlashingFire]

I actually just got done playing the best Lucas in my area, so here's some stuff that's fresh in my mind:

PK Freeze is super annoying in neutral, but you can crouch underneath it if the Lucas doesn't fire it super low. If you think it's coming, run up and shield to close some distance - then you can wavedash out of it and act from there. If he does hit you with PK freeze, be ready to eat just about anything. Grabs, Fairs, Nairs, even a DACUS if the Lucas is on point.

I've been told I should DI down and away to escape Fair chains, but be careful - if you eat the sweetspot it could result in an early death. The best DI I know for Dthrow is down and behind Lucas, but even then you can get Fair'd. It's better than eating a free Usmash though. AVOID GETTING HIT BY DAIR AT HIGH PERCENTS. It sets up just about the easiest Usmash ever. Dash away and pivot grab for a good punish.

Lucas' Nair, Dair and jab can combine to create insane shield pressure. Jab comes out in one frame, so it will generally beat Up-B OoS - however, the jab itself (and especially jab 2) are definitely unsafe on shield. Once you get an Up-B at low percent, you can Nair > grab > Uthrow > C4 most of the time. Uthrow chain grabs also work - from zero I think you can get four in a row before you should go for the free C4 stick. In general you can combo Lucas just as well as he combos you. Uthrow > Fair can be a nasty early finisher if Lucas DIs offstage, or it can set up a tech chase (and potentially a tranq) otherwise.

Overall, Snake and Lucas both wreck each other hard, but Lucas' PK Freeze and shield pressure gives him the edge in neutral. Maximize your punishes and be smart with your OoS game to combat these advantages.

Also, getting grabbed by Lucas freaking sucks. He can actually get a Dthrow chain grab off of good combo DI, and the active frames on his pivot and dash grabs last for days.

 

[Sylarius]

I lost to a Diddy in my region today getting 0-deathed in both games 1 and 2. I still can't really remember what he did but it involved getting me offstage, side b and dair. I didn't jump into it or anything either, it was all one smooth motion both times (I played Fox the first game and the 0-death was the same both times from what I remember.)

Anybody have some advice for the Diddy matchup? I believe there was some Ness & Falco advice here already but Charizard would be nice as well.

 

[jtm94]

Against Diddy make sure to learn adequate handling of items, being able to wavedash and pick up bananas, grab peanuts out of the air, etc. It will make the MU almost uphill for Diddy if you can handle them well and turn them against him.

Also, the swift motion you speak of could definitely be SideB kick into dair, but Diddy has a dash attack that rolls off of ledges and keeps going, and can be canceled into dair for potent meteors. If he goes for the dash attack to take you off stage make sure you DI upwards and he won't be able to land dair, and he will be below you offstage, so you can do what you will with that.

 

[FlashingFire]

...except DI to avoid the Dair can result in a Fair DX.

The matchup is difficult because Diddy directly and swiftly challenges Snake's stage control with bananas and overall superior speed. It's also really tough to edgeguard his recovery. However, Diddy is highly combo-able. Uthrow chaingrab into C4 stick works well, and after that a simple Uthrow > Uair > C4 can mean death from a grab at 60 or so. Snake has lots of good punishes like this, so make them count. The challenge will come from the neutral game - learn how to pick up bananas and toss them back intelligently (a good Diddy will just pick it up and Glide Toss it back at you if you throw it at him without thought). Glide Tossing and Aerial Glide Tossing are really good tools for this.

Bottom line, if you can figure out a plan to control the stage and mitigate banana pressure, you should be able to win as long as your punish game is on point.

 

[Darkshooter]

Any clues on how to deal with Falco's lazers?

Eff them. Seriously, they're like Diddy's banana game.

 

[FlashingFire]

Crawl under them.

 

[Sapphire Dragon]

Not sure if this is the place to ask this, since I couldn't find a Snake social.

I'm wondering, what is the generally agreed upon best version of Snake? Did he have anything notable in previous versions (i.e. like Charizard's 2.5 infinite glide) that has since been taken out? I'm making a custom version of P:M with the best versions of all characters in it. Thanks again!

 

[Foxy K]

I heard Nikita was, like, too good. But the tranq is pretty sweet, so I don't know. Probably go with Nikita though.

 

[Risky]

Nikita > Dart. Impossible to punish on hit, shield, or whiff since you could drop it with L as soon as you shot it, and it had crazy knockback. Trying to recover against it was an absolute nightmare for most of the cast.

 

[Risky]

Does anyone have any tips for the Lucas matchup? I find that I don't do well getting juggled by his crazy combos.

Grenades are pretty effective against Lucas. Pull them out, shield + WD to pick it up. You can threaten to throw it at him if he approaches or jumps, or if he closed on you while you pulled it he'll have a very hard time pressuring your shield without it exploding. You get pretty free combos off of grabs at any % as well.

 

[Pr0fessor Flash]

The Meta Knight MU is pretty bad Meta Knight has fast moves but easily SDI out Gimping wise I would compare it to Marth gimping Fox in Melee or MK Gimping a Falco in Brawl

 

[Master Raven]

hey Snake players, what are your thoughts on the Mewtwo matchup? A Snake player down in my region has been asking for advice on how to fight Mewtwo and I don't really have high level exp in this matchup (although MVD is picking him up and I can expect him to get really good with him in the next few months) so I don't know what Snake should do vs Mewtwo besides Up B OOS against teleport nairs lol

 

[DMG]

Crawling makes the MU much easier. If M2 ever jumps or TP's in, crawling goes under most of it besides Nairs that touch the ground or Fairs. Combine it with Upb, either OOS or just outright, and you force M2 to sit around more with tilts and slower gameplay.

Actual tips in other areas: I have no ****in idea. The fact that Mewtwo can float aerials makes most traditional Snake counterplay and punishing ideas very hard to implement.

 

[Arrow (Kyle)]

The truth to the Mewtwo Matchup with Snake:

1. Wait for the update
2. **** the nerfed Mewtwo
3. Say GGs and thank the PMBR

 

[FlashingFire]

The trick is to get the Mewtwo to approach you or be above you. He's got some really safe stuff that you have to constantly be ready for, but you can crawl under small Shadow Balls, chuck grenades to motivate M2 to move or shield, and force some sort of reaction by placing mines - a smart Mewtwo will be able to detonate mines from a safe distance, but you can at least stop him from doing anything productive.

Your best punish is to stick Mewtwo. Opt for this over pretty much anything at low percents. After that, you can KO Mewtwo with the C4 around 60-80% (stage-dependent) as long as you hit him a reasonable distance into the air first.

Be intelligent with your combos. If you go for something that's not airtight, you could eat a nasty Fair and get combo'd or KO'd very quickly. Also, Mewtwo's roll and tech roll are very long, so you'll have to adjust your tech chases accordingly.

Use tranqs wisely. In neutral it's almost never a good option, as Confusion can reflect it back at you, and it's very easy for Mewtwo to maneuver around the dart and punish the endlag. That said, a successful tranq is one of the most reliable ways to stick Mewtwo, so at mid-high percents feel free to use it more liberally in your tech chases, and especially off of any jab resets you can get.

For stages, I prefer ones that have low ceilings and/or lots of platforms. Platforms give Snake more mobility and options to land, and they provide space to lay explosives and take advantage of Mewtwo's large hurtbox. Low ceilings allow for quick vertical KOs, which you are going to need if you want to compete with Mewtwo's excellent combo and KO power.

Uthrow > Dair puts on a lot of percent and forces a tech chase. If you read the tech or get a jab reset, that's an opportunity to set up that juicy tranq > sticky.

Hope that helps!

 

[SSS]

having some trouble with Charizard. Helps are appreciated.

 

[beanwolf]

What do you guys do against G&W? I don't see this matchup talked about so I don't think it's bad for Snake but I must be playing it wrong. I play a lot of G&W's that just Up-B out of everything, even when I get a low % sticky I always eat the Up-B to do so. Up-B on wake up is even harder to deal with because he can even get out of a dthrow --> tranq read occasionally if you're not perfect. Not to mention that G&W's vertical combos are tough to deal with because of Snake's bad airspeed. They also always seem to be able to link an aerial into a dtilt on my shield before I can grab/WD OOS.

 

[FlashingFire]

I think Snake does pretty well against G&W. If the guy is Dtilting after every aerial, wait for it to hit your shield and respond with Dair OoS or something. Dtilt is fast, but it's not safe if it's spaced improperly. Up-B on wakeup is annoying, but it does put G&W above Snake, which is good positioning. Press your advantage by chucking explosives upward (Usmash, grenades, Cyphers, etc). You can even beat out Dair with a well-space Uair since Snake's limbs are so long.