Project: M Snake MU Thread. (3.0 Currently)

[beanwolf]

I think Snake does pretty well against G&W. If the guy is Dtilting after every aerial, wait for it to hit your shield and respond with Dair OoS or something. Dtilt is fast, but it's not safe if it's spaced improperly. Up-B on wakeup is annoying, but it does put G&W above Snake, which is good positioning. Press your advantage by chucking explosives upward (Usmash, grenades, Cyphers, etc). You can even beat out Dair with a well-space Uair since Snake's limbs are so long.

If I can get some friendlies in before our weekly starts I'm gonna try to fish harder for an early Up-B after I land a stick and see if I can just punish his escape with an early KO. Also I think I try to hard to get a raw stick off of Uthrow when I should probably uthrow --> dair --> jab reset like in the Zelda MU.

 

[TimeMuffinPhD]

Does anyone have any tips for the Yoshi match up? So far I've found that camping is the best way to go, however I'm not sure how to combo or stick him easily - I know that tranq goes through his egg roll and you can stick him that way.

 

[BND]

I've never seen (nor played against) a Yoshi, but from what I remember from his weight in Brawl, his weight seems to be in the combo-able group, barring doublejump superarmor. Worse case scenario, upthrow -> cypher -> upair at low-mid percents gives a good 40+ damage if you space it properly, so if you can tranq the Yoshi, get your stick and grab, and do somewhat ok in the neutral game, then you're probably all good.

On the topic of approach moves, does anyone have any good ideas vs. a side-b-happy Squirtle? Planting mines (I forgot to dump C4s) and chucking grenades doesn't work, since squirtle can shoot water fast enough to neutralize them, cypher trades at best (and not in Snake's favor, since it just turns into a reset to neutral and it's mentally taxing to time optimally), and I don't remember being able to time Snake's tilts well enough to actually hit squirtle. Fishing for back airs also seems a bit too telegraphed to be effective, and tranqs just go over squirtle. Any ideas?

(Same question goes for Kirby's dash attack (since it clanks with tilts and moves too fast to be tranqed), though not as urgently)

 

[TimeMuffinPhD]

I've never seen (nor played against) a Yoshi, but from what I remember from his weight in Brawl, his weight seems to be in the combo-able group, barring doublejump superarmor. Worse case scenario, upthrow -> cypher -> upair at low-mid percents gives a good 40+ damage if you space it properly, so if you can tranq the Yoshi, get your stick and grab, and do somewhat ok in the neutral game, then you're probably all good.

On the topic of approach moves, does anyone have any good ideas vs. a side-b-happy Squirtle? Planting mines (I forgot to dump C4s) and chucking grenades doesn't work, since squirtle can shoot water fast enough to neutralize them, cypher trades at best (and not in Snake's favor, since it just turns into a reset to neutral and it's mentally taxing to time optimally), and I don't remember being able to time Snake's tilts well enough to actually hit squirtle. Fishing for back airs also seems a bit too telegraphed to be effective, and tranqs just go over squirtle. Any ideas?

(Same question goes for Kirby's dash attack (since it clanks with tilts and moves too fast to be tranqed), though not as urgently)

Thanks for the tips. For Squirtle though you could probably shield nade when he side-b's, so if he comes at you it's gonna give you free damage.

 

[FlashingFire]

Snake can combo the crap out of Yoshi. Dair in particular does massive work on Yoshi, who is a fairly large character. Uthrow chaingrab works for a bit, tranq beats egg roll, and things like Cypher and Dair OoS are great responses to unsafe moves on shield. Just don't get grabbed - Yoshi's Dthrow leads to a ton of follow-ups and juggles.

Against Squirtle, keep in mind that trades are in your favor. Keep pulling grenades and planting mines, and CC stuff like side-B at lower percents. And with Snake's grab range, it's fairly easy to run away from side-B and pivot grab as Squirtle catches up to you. That should teach him not to spam the move so freely.

 

[BND]

Ah, forgot to mention that the few times I did try pulling grenades, somehow they never actually got hit. Will try pivot grabs and whatnot in the future, though; thanks for the tip.

EDIT: Pulling grenades-> confirmed to be completely useless in the vs. side-b Squirtle matchup, though apparently squirtle only has a few options to get out of his side-B (Cancel with an attack that puts him into helpless, cancel with B which puts him into a laggy animation, side-B until it stops, hit someone (or their shield) once and be put into neutral). I guess the optimal solution would be to play on a small stage and/or fish for grabs/spotdodge near the edge, though that puts snake closer to the edge for most of the match...

 

[cisyphus]

I've found that the most effective way to beat Squirtles—especially the side-b happy variety—is simply to platform camp, sneaking down to lay mines to limit their options. Other than that, use C4 to force them to stay stationary, and grenades to pressure them into a bad situation (either running into a mine, in range of C4, or getting hit by the grenade) and then punish as much as you can off of that. Squirtle's ground mobility is too great so the only real option is to force him off the ground. Grabbing the side-b is a usual remedy vs. Squirtle, but whiffing it is a huge loss because of Snake's combo-friendly weight and low ground mobility. It goes without saying, but ban stages like FD, Smashville, and Yoshi's Island where it's far more difficult (or impossible) to do this. Strike to Dreamland or Battlefield

Kirby's dash attack meanwhile is not nearly as menacing and far easier to punish; you just need to get familiar with its range, bait it out, space it out, and then punish. It's just dash attack, after all. If they come up short, that's a grab. If they're coming in hot with it, jump over and fade back with a bair or dair.

 

[Pr0fessor Flash]

I've found that the most effective way to beat Squirtles—especially the side-b happy variety—is simply to platform camp, sneaking down to lay mines to limit their options. Other than that, use C4 to force them to stay stationary, and grenades to pressure them into a bad situation (either running into a mine, in range of C4, or getting hit by the grenade) and then punish as much as you can off of that. Squirtle's ground mobility is too great so the only real option is to force him off the ground. Grabbing the side-b is a usual remedy vs. Squirtle, but whiffing it is a huge loss because of Snake's combo-friendly weight and low ground mobility. It goes without saying, but ban stages like FD, Smashville, and Yoshi's Island where it's far more difficult (or impossible) to do this. Strike to Dreamland or Battlefield

Kirby's dash attack meanwhile is not nearly as menacing and far easier to punish; you just need to get familiar with its range, bait it out, space it out, and then punish. It's just dash attack, after all. If they come up short, that's a grab. If they're coming in hot with it, jump over and fade back with a bair or dair.

Nice dude!

 

[FlashingFire]

Don't grab Kirby's Dash Attack. The move makes Kirby literally immune to grabs for the whole duration of the move (which I believe will be fixed in 3.5).

 

[cisyphus]

I never said to grab it, did I? "If it comes up short" means that the hitbox didn't reach you, ergo: Kirby's in his endlag.

 

[FlashingFire]

Even in endlag (and Kirby's Dash Attack has VERY little endlag), that move is immune to grabs.

 

[cisyphus]

So can we reformulate this for 3.5 now? And maybe get some in depth concepts of match ups posted up? I know I can contribute a lot to spacies, Lucas, and Sonic given the prominence of those characters in my scene.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

How do the up b changes effect snake?

 

[cisyphus]

Any character that can generate solid shield pressure has a lot easier of a time doing so on Snake. Previously snake just had to bait that out and then Cypher oos and combo off of that. It's not that big a deal 'cause Snake can still pull grenades when spacies and such close in, but if the spacies' spacing is on point it won't affect them until it explodes which leaves Snake with a really diminished shield. Buffer roll is probably super good for that reason: you'll roll away after the nair/dair and the shine will detonate the grenade (maybe, I don't really know the frame data there).