Not many people can camp him in a way that leaves him helpless. The characters that can do that, tend to have the best ground mobility in the game coupled with other traits that make it hard to go in. AKA, some of the better characters in the game. Nothing wrong with having trouble with Sheik or Marth or MK
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Project: M Snake MU Thread. (3.0 Currently)
- Thread starter JTsm
- Start date
foxygrandpa
Smash Journeyman
shiek gets grabbed pretty by him though, and he's got the advantage of ducking grabs, which shiek can't do. I think he's got trouble against anyone who air juggles well, like wolf or link. Link in particular just cause he can get out camped. And I dont really think snakes mediocre, I think he's pretty solid. He's got his advantages and disadvantages though, like every character should.
foxygrandpa
Smash Journeyman
It might be slightly disadvantageous but its definetly not more than 60 40
I would be interested to see one of the better Snake players (maybe Professor Pro?) just go ahead and list their estimations for all the match ups. Just list the numbers rather than going into explanations just so I can get an idea where Snake stands currently. It doesn't have to be "official" just...rough guesses.
WizKid911
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Feb 22, 2013
- Messages
- 207
I am having trouble fighting ness. His jump is awkward and it is very easy to get combo'd im the air with snakes reaction time. And the horrible left/right b. I literally cant do anything if im hit by it. I have to sit there and spam dodge and hope to god he misses his grab. My friend that plays ness i dont get to play often so im not used to fighting him. I doubt cpu would be a good foe to practice against. With snakes bad, changethat to not so great, approach i cant do much especially since he has electricity too that pushes outside of his hitbox.
JTsm
Smash Master
- Joined
- Apr 19, 2010
- Messages
- 3,230
Ness is one of those MU's where both characters can really mess each other up, but since Snake has to learn a bit more, people will think it's Ness's favor. I would highly suggest going to stages with platforms. Weaving around Ness is something Snake wants. Another thing is to use Grenades a lot more because you can pressure him too. His side b is a *****, but it's not an auto win. Once Ness gets in on you, DI away from his attacks/setups. I was playing Carabrel at the Big House 3 and you can CG Ness and guarantee a sticky. It was hard to predict Ness's movement since his mobility is pretty ridiculous. Big stages help IMO, but smaller stages work if you know how to predict Ness's movement/habits.
Thoughts on the ZSS matchup? From my experience it seems that Snake's approach options are even more limited than usual with Zamus' great reach and punishes, whereas ZSS approaches much more easily. Granted, Snake's punishes are still great when he gets them, but the MU seems pretty rough against a patient ZSS.
WizKid911
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Feb 22, 2013
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- 207
Its very hard for me to predict my friends ness. I dont play a human ness often enough so i cant effectively get used to him by fighting a cpu. When he gets side b happy i start to get used to it and i try distancing myself or jumping over it, which snakes jump is so slow tht i still get hit by it most of the time. And then i ust spaz out on my controller. I am a bit slow catching on sometimes lol. I have to constantly play. Zss has that whip mann. Its hard to get in close because of the simple fact that if you hit her whip then she wins. Its like a sword. Most characters with swords have the upper hand. And snake is fast but zss is a hell of a lot quicker
Zelda is also a tricky character in my experience. She's hard to punish in general, and for a character that lives off of control and punishes, that's a problem. The MU isn't that bad once she's in the air, but does anyone have any advice beyond baiting and punishing Nayru's Love?
GoblinGamerKid
Smash Cadet
Anyone have some ideas on help with snake vs fox mu?
You can't CG Fox when he's at really low percent, but Uthrow > SH Dair and Uthrow > Cypher can work at 0% if the Fox player doesn't react in time. Dair in general is fantastic on Fox, as it can combo into C4, Grab, more Dairs, Utilt, Fair, or just about anything. Crouch under lasers, be patient, and for goodness sake capitalize on your grabs.
Also Fthrow/Bthrow > Fair offstage rocks.
Also Fthrow/Bthrow > Fair offstage rocks.
Yes. Especially the crouching under lasers part. I'm pretty sure it's impossible to hit a crouching Snake with Falco's lasers unless the stage slopes or something.
Professor Pro
Smash Legend
Where did you hear that from lol? I hate the placebo effects before release lol 
And no, it doesn't come out faster or have invincibility frames
And no, it doesn't come out faster or have invincibility frames
Professor Pro
Smash Legend
There's never been invincibility in ANY build lol. Definitely placebo effect.
I'm having a lot of trouble against Ivysaur. It is super hard to try and pull out grenades, and usually not really paying off against razor leaf. How long can snake chaingrab her into a sticky? It seems like I'm always getting naird out of it. And approaching is even more difficult for me now than in other matchups. Do i just have to pick stages with platforms and try to move around her?
WizKid911
Smash Journeyman
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- Feb 22, 2013
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- 207
Amen to that. My friend doesn't even L cancel, and he still makes it difficult to get inside. Its just ridiculous. Between the leaves and the vines. Its just a pain in the butt
I don't quite agree with "hella broken," but Ivy does have a lot of attributes that make me go "really?" I think a minor nerf is appropriate.
Juushichi
sugoi ~ sugoi ~
For the bolded part, try uthrow->utilt as an extender instead of jump dair.
I feel like that is a better thing to go for if what you're trying to do is get a regrab extender.
Doesn't Uthrow on a 0% Fox send him behind Snake though? Or are you talking about a turnaround Utilt? That does sound like something to try out.
JTsm
Smash Master
- Joined
- Apr 19, 2010
- Messages
- 3,230
Fox will end up immediately behind Snake at 0% after one upthrow. There is also a very small window to act on what Fox can do after that. Upbing or Uptilt are the options I would use at that point. Upbing is risky, but fox is right next to you for the upb hitbox to send Fox more upwards. I guess it also depends on where you are on the stage as well. Being on a platform or near the edge will make the upb option more riskier. So yeah, uptilt seems like the safer option.
If your opponent is bad or doesn't know what Snake does, you can re-grab them really fast after the first up throw. lol. But I wouldn't practice that seriously.
If your opponent is bad or doesn't know what Snake does, you can re-grab them really fast after the first up throw. lol. But I wouldn't practice that seriously.
Mr.Pickle
Smash Lord
So I got to try this new side b thingy, and I agree with the move completely. Like I honestly can't find anything wrong with it, so props to who thought it up, and worked on it. Oh and his new taunt is top tier, cigarette edgedguards for the win lol.
JTsm
Smash Master
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- Apr 19, 2010
- Messages
- 3,230
I updated the thread a bit. Hoping for some discussion.
What are the most difficult characters to face? We can all agree to discuss one character at a time if you guys want.
My most difficult MU's atm:
Ivysaur
Mewtwo
Lucas
I haven't played too much, but those characters I remember can be a pain.
What are the most difficult characters to face? We can all agree to discuss one character at a time if you guys want.
My most difficult MU's atm:
Ivysaur
Mewtwo
Lucas
I haven't played too much, but those characters I remember can be a pain.
WizKid911
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Feb 22, 2013
- Messages
- 207
I have preached about ivysaur since ive joined. Its nice to see that I am not the only one that has problems with him. I hate that the nikita is gon for, that match up. It was an excellent edge gaurd tool considering ivy hit high can get backon from dair. The tranq can easily be canceled with a razor leaf
Arrow (Kyle)
Smash Apprentice
I agree with those but definitely add Roy to that list. Unless I've been doing something very wrong in that MU, it's one of the harder ones for me.
I don't see Ivy as too difficult, however. Fair spike is pretty easily hit on them due to their recovery and where it's usable from. I personally like to throw a grenade, do a poorly input DACUS(really need work on that) to apply pressure. Bair spaces well for the MU as well, and if they DI certain ways you can even get a sticky out after it at lower percents.
I can't say much about Mewtwo or Lucas, but with Ivy it seems more even to me. Snake can KO her pretty early with Fair and C4, but it's hard to get in and get out of juggle scenarios. I find it most effective to approach by DDing and looking for grabs or, at higher percents, tranqs.
Arrow (Kyle)
Smash Apprentice
except that their leaves make tranqs useless unless you can really mix it up. The matchup isn't even but it isn't unwinnable by any means.
Keep in mind that Razor Leaf has quite a bit more startup in 3.0 than in 2.6b, making it extremely difficult to block a tranq with on reaction, even if there's enough space. Realistically the only thing Ivy will block the tranq with is a shield. And obviously it's not a good idea to fire a tranq with a leaf already in the way.
Edit: Also, on the subject of Zelda, If she tries to camp with Din's fire while standing you can get a free tranq. Once she's scared of that, the camp game becomes much less threatening.
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The Milk Monster
Smash Champion
If I'm playing the camp game with Ivy, or Zelda even, sometimes I just try to nest myself in, with a mine, throw a grenade and try to go for a tranq. The range on the tranq is really deceptive, sometimes it feels like it wont make the distance, and sometimes, it really does. Razor leaf is definitely really hard to contest though, but, getting an early sticky really helps the Ivysaur get shaken up a bit. Allows you to be a little more reckless, since they will be scared of the C4.
In my own personal match up experience, getting that early sticky makes the Sonic match up easier to deal with. The Sonic has to be much more careful in his approach.
In my own personal match up experience, getting that early sticky makes the Sonic match up easier to deal with. The Sonic has to be much more careful in his approach.
- Joined
- Aug 31, 2005
- Messages
- 8,189
So I played in a local tournament yesterday and had a ton of trouble with Mario and Luigi. Do you guys have any advice for those match ups? I had to switch to Roy and Olimar for those match ups.
Things that I had a lot of trouble with as snake
-Ftilt clanking with his ftilt. His next one came out faster. Not sure what to do if I clank with them.
-Getting Sticky Set ups. Other than Dair I had a lot trouble getting my sticks set up.
-Getting combod. I don't know Marios combos or Luigis combos. My main problem was when I was thrown I didn't know where to DI so I wouldn't get annihilated.
- Dealing with pill spam was hard too
I won the tournament but lost the matches to the plumbers. I didn't want to have to switch from Snake but I was forced.
Things that I had a lot of trouble with as snake
-Ftilt clanking with his ftilt. His next one came out faster. Not sure what to do if I clank with them.
-Getting Sticky Set ups. Other than Dair I had a lot trouble getting my sticks set up.
-Getting combod. I don't know Marios combos or Luigis combos. My main problem was when I was thrown I didn't know where to DI so I wouldn't get annihilated.
- Dealing with pill spam was hard too
I won the tournament but lost the matches to the plumbers. I didn't want to have to switch from Snake but I was forced.
The Milk Monster
Smash Champion
Hope this helps.So I played in a local tournament yesterday and had a ton of trouble with Mario and Luigi. Do you guys have any advice for those match ups? I had to switch to Roy and Olimar for those match ups.
Things that I had a lot of trouble with as snake
-Ftilt clanking with his ftilt. His next one came out faster. Not sure what to do if I clank with them. (Well, personally, if I feel like I'm in trouble, I either up b out of there or crouch to hopefully crouch the upcoming punish. A lot of the time, I will approach with a jab to get a feel for the situation, and go from there. If they are being aggressive, I shield grab. If they are shielding, I usually try to sticky, etc.)
-Getting Sticky Set ups. Other than Dair I had a lot trouble getting my sticks set up. (Considering they are trying to space you out, as you should be, getting a sticky set up will definitely be hard. I feel a sticky set up for Luigi would be easier than Mario, both are still pretty difficult) All I can really suggest is trying to get them to shield a lot when you're up close, and then nabbing a sticky then, or keep trying with dair/over b.
-Getting combod. I don't know Marios combos or Luigis combos. My main problem was when I was thrown I didn't know where to DI so I wouldn't get annihilated. (You can just chalk that one up to match up inexperience. Playing it more will help you learn.)
- Dealing with pill spam was hard too (Get very comfortable power shielding. With Snake, typically I like having the opponent come to me, so I will set up a down smash mine in front of me and chuck some grenades and over b's to aggravate the opponent. With Mario its harder, cause his fireball is great. Just be patient and try to Power shield through them while advancing.)
I won the tournament but lost the matches to the plumbers. I didn't want to have to switch from Snake but I was forced.
Also from what I've noticed from playing, Lucas isn't too difficult. One good knockdown could mean an early kill for Snake. It's so easy to deal with him off the stage as well. Also, it's hard for him to deal with a retreating up b from Snake.
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Hi. Im having trouble against shiek and marth. Tilts juggle the crap out of despite di. Im new toto pm and the top players here say this game has set combos now. MaEthan combos always end in dair. Sheik gets fair or uair no matter what after tilting. Is ths true?
Theit grab range is just as ggood if not better. I dont actually own the game so I can't test anything.
Imm losing to sheiks that dont l cancel. They play supper aggro and space well. Mostly vbrawl players so they also understand snake and since he is basically a shadow of his former self they also realize his weaknesses.
Ive been told just too counter pick. I dont want to. Im plsying pm too play snake/ have fun. Soo I turn to you: smashboards
Theit grab range is just as ggood if not better. I dont actually own the game so I can't test anything.
Imm losing to sheiks that dont l cancel. They play supper aggro and space well. Mostly vbrawl players so they also understand snake and since he is basically a shadow of his former self they also realize his weaknesses.
Ive been told just too counter pick. I dont want to. Im plsying pm too play snake/ have fun. Soo I turn to you: smashboards
The Milk Monster
Smash Champion
I'm not sure if about the guaranteed damage thing. Both of these are hard match ups. It's really hard to get Sheik off of you when she's in. Camp her out to the best of your ability. If she's in and starts getting you in tilts, try to Up b out when you get breathing room.
Snake is still very good. Still has a very good camp game, Over B is amazing for tech chases and stuffing recoveries, and sticky is so good now.
Darkshooter
Smash Ace
Any thoughts on the Fox matchup as Snake? I regularly play Project M with my brother who is around my skill level, and he did say that it looked very difficult for Snake, as Fox's speed would just blind him before he has a chance to get his bearings together. I'm curious to know if Snake really does have troubles against Fox, or if I'm just simply playing the matchup wrong.