Data Prepare Yourself (Ike Match-up thread)

[Rango the Mercenary]

Rango I don't think lil mac beats ike easily anymore. That ftilt speed buff helps him punish so much better now when lil mac decides to do ftilt. And the jab buff and other speed buffs he got just made the match up hella easier.

Definitely. Same for the Nair buff that allows Ike to recover earlier. Little Mac is going to have weaknesses against everyone in the game since he can just get BThrow - Fair/Bair off stage quickly. In the neutral, though, I feel it's much more even between Ike and Little Mac now.

 

[Renegade TX2000]

Definitely. Same for the Nair buff that allows Ike to recover earlier. Little Mac is going to have weaknesses against everyone in the game since he can just get BThrow - Fair/Bair off stage quickly. In the neutral, though, I feel it's much more even between Ike and Little Mac now.

Yeah, also I believe ike can beat mac now. Add platforms and hell yeah he can without a doubt. Take him to Kirby 64 stage and ike wins lmfao, that tree hates mac.

We can play the mu since it's changed. I used to believe it was 6-4 mac favor but now i think it's 55-45 neutral... Which is amazing. with ike air attack buffs, it's like 65-35 on platforms and in the air.

 

[Xuan Wu]

I noticed that the Zelda boards are currently discussing the Ike match-up. How do you guys think we fare versus Zelda? ^-^

http://smashboards.com/threads/a-li...-matchup-thread-discussion-ike.384490/page-19

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

I noticed that the Zelda boards are currently discussing the Ike match-up. How do you guys think we fare versus Zelda? ^-^

http://smashboards.com/threads/a-li...-matchup-thread-discussion-ike.384490/page-19

Zelda's only advantage is using the Phantom to push your Aether away and gimp you early. Otherwise, the only other thing she has are high hitboxes. Things like dash attack can take out your jump, and her FSmash has little punish time.

 

[-RedX-]

Don't have enough Zelda exp but I assume she can't punish spaced aerials which probably leave her in Dtilt/Jab range.
Her Fsmash might actually be punishable by Ike's Dash Attack now but I haven't/can't test.

 

[Arrei]

I notice people on the Zelda board are considering the matchup pretty even, as we have a better neutral but she gained a kill setup in Nair -> elevator with the patch. Do Ike's kill setups work on Zelda?

They also don't seem to be aware that our aerials are major combo starters or that dash attack can outright kill them now.

 

[PyroTakun]

I notice people on the Zelda board are considering the matchup pretty even, as we have a better neutral but she gained a kill setup in Nair -> elevator with the patch. Do Ike's kill setups work on Zelda?

They also don't seem to be aware that our aerials are major combo starters or that dash attack can outright kill them now.

Gotta whip out with Ike and let them know

 

[Yoh]

Zelda has a hard time getting in on Ike and can´t punish Ike very well. Also Ike´s mobility is much better she can´t really follow you.
Ike doesn´t care so much about her up B as long as his spacing is good.
Combos won´t work on her as long as against some other characters since she is is kinda floaty, so no real killsetups.
And from my experience Dash Attack can punish her smashes pretty good now.

This MU really feels like 60:40 for me in Ike´s favor

But it´s actually a bad timing discussing the Ike mu.

 

[san.]

I notice people on the Zelda board are considering the matchup pretty even, as we have a better neutral but she gained a kill setup in Nair -> elevator with the patch. Do Ike's kill setups work on Zelda?

They also don't seem to be aware that our aerials are major combo starters or that dash attack can outright kill them now.

Kill setups from throws can't combo on a floaty character like Zelda outside of very specific percents with frame tight inputs, but she can still be caught in a mean 50/50 from a throw anyways. Sometimes nair may combo into something, too. I don't think we need kill setups that much when she can be hit by our standard powerful attacks.

 

[Mario766]

50/50s out of 3 of our throws makes things very dangerous for anyone at kill percents.

Back Throw is something I don't see enough after this patch when it's a very powerful 50/50 tech chase that can kill on any miss tech.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

I have serious trouble against Ness. Yo-yo DSmash and USmash are hard to punish, his Fair beats out all my aerial options, PK Thunder juggle is unpleasant and VERY hard to escape (especially if he reads your airdodges), and his grabs have insane range. I'm going to upload some videos on the Video Critique Thread, so please take a look.

 

[Arrei]

I have much more success stopping PK Thunder with Counter. As for DSmash, it's just awkward because it hits behind him first, going against what every other Dsmash conditions us for.

I find the main thing you want to do against Ness is baiting. His Fair generally hits us before we can hit him if we charge at him, and he can get us with Nair if we jump while we're too close, so we want to either stay on the ground or slowly inch closer with Nair/Fair walls until we can goad him into attacking first. Just don't commit all the way to a forward jump if it's not safe. If he decides to approach, then there's your chance to defend and retaliate. If he decides to use PK Fire while we're anywhere within the distance we can cover with a jump and Fair, we have time to either slap him with the Fair, block and grab if we're even closer, or go for mixups as Ness will be forced to immediately choose between defense or attack at that moment.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

I have much more success stopping PK Thunder with Counter. As for DSmash, it's just awkward because it hits behind him first, going against what every other Dsmash conditions us for.

I find the main thing you want to do against Ness is baiting. His Fair generally hits us before we can hit him if we charge at him, and he can get us with Nair if we jump while we're too close, so we want to either stay on the ground or slowly inch closer with Nair/Fair walls until we can goad him into attacking first. Just don't commit all the way to a forward jump if it's not safe. If he decides to approach, then there's your chance to defend and retaliate. If he decides to use PK Fire while we're anywhere within the distance we can cover with a jump and Fair, we have time to either slap him with the Fair, block and grab if we're even closer, or go for mixups as Ness will be forced to immediately choose between defense or attack at that moment.

I got the matches posted on the video thread. At one point, I hit Counter on his PK Thunder twice and SD'd because of it. On another, he literally went right THROUGH me after I hit Counter and clipped the ledge.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Can we agree that Lucario is Ike's worst matchup?

-Out-ranges Ike with several moves, including Side B
-Aura Sphere is his kill-move projectile
-Aura Sphere also gimps Aether when you recover at the lowest point
-Aura will allow Lucario to match Ike's strength and knockback kill power
-Has multiple killing moves (Bair, FSmash, Aura Sphere), including a command grab - Side B
-Very, very hard to punish due to low hitlag
-Deceptive lack of hit-lag allows him to go into shield quickly. This includes canceling into his shield while charging Aura Sphere
-Grab range is almost as good as Ness' and Duck Hunt's, allowing him to grab you from around mid-range of your dash attack if blocked
-Can stall on the ledge if on a walled stage, rendering Eruption useless due to the ability to stick to the wall.
-Also has a Counter, which starts up faster than Ike's
-Can choose to camp you out with Aura Sphere or long-ranged Side B, so defend bait-punishing with Nair is almost not a good option.
-Incredibly fast roll speed makes it easy for him to punish and get your back for free grabs or even Side B

The main problem with Lucario being that it's extremely hard to punish him and his kill power skyrockets the more you damage him.

 

[san.]

Can we agree that Lucario is Ike's worst matchup?

-Out-ranges Ike with several moves, including Side B
-Aura Sphere is his kill-move projectile
-Aura Sphere also gimps Aether when you recover at the lowest point
-Aura will allow Lucario to match Ike's strength and knockback kill power
-Has multiple killing moves (Bair, FSmash, Aura Sphere), including a command grab - Side B
-Very, very hard to punish due to low hitlag
-Deceptive lack of hit-lag allows him to go into shield quickly. This includes canceling into his shield while charging Aura Sphere
-Grab range is almost as good as Ness' and Duck Hunt's, allowing him to grab you from around mid-range of your dash attack if blocked
-Can stall on the ledge if on a walled stage, rendering Eruption useless due to the ability to stick to the wall.
-Also has a Counter, which starts up faster than Ike's
-Can choose to camp you out with Aura Sphere or long-ranged Side B, so defend bait-punishing with Nair is almost not a good option.
-Incredibly fast roll speed makes it easy for him to punish and get your back for free grabs or even Side B

The main problem with Lucario being that it's extremely hard to punish him and his kill power skyrockets the more you damage him.

-Luc's aerials are all outranged by nair. Ike's ftilt has more range than Luc's forward smash. Only sideB has any range, and Ike can aerial through it.
-It only kills if Lucario somehow survives to a very high %
-Aura sphere doesn't hit if you snap low
-Lucario shouldn't be living very long against Ike
-Those are his only kill moves. Bair is super laggy, Fsmash is pretty short and slow. Aura Sphere needs to charge. Even then, Ike could probably survive until after 110-120. If Lucario misses at all, he'll be heavily punished since ALL of Ike's aerials kill.
-Ike's landing lag is overall lower except for nair (Lucario's dair doesn't count either)
-Grab range is average
-Stalling on the side only delays the inevitable. UpB has a startup that can be reacted to
-Counter hits late and can be blocked. It's also not incredibly strong
-Lucario isn't fast enough to camp you. He can't even do much damage until he's in kill %
-Roll is only slightly above average. Roll invincibility is actually lower than most other characters

Luc's pretty easy to punish. If Luc survives to over 130, it's the Ike that screwed up. That's when Lucario's attacks begin to be positive on shield. Even so, Ike can easily outrange Lucario.

 

[Mario766]

I don't see Lucario being bad, honestly. Ike has too many options to kill Lucario before Aura becomes a problem. Lucario only wins after 110 damage.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Ike realistically should be one of Lucario's worst match ups. We can kill him early (so no aura), and he struggles to deal with our disjoints. On top of that, his frame data is... less than stellar. He pretty much has Aura Sphere to harass us with and... that's largely it unless we mess up and let him live too long.

Sheik is most likely still Ike's worst MU.

 

[jamlosingthegame]

Does + = still?

 

[Routa]

Does + = still?

... wat?

I think Ike's top 3 worst MUs are: Sheik, Mario and Luigi.

I think his top 3 best MUs are: Faptain, WFT and Ganondorf.

But what you guys think about Ike vs Mr. G&W?

 

[Mario766]

I don't like Ike vs Captain. CF does too well in neutral.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

I just played a For Glory guy (BC Len) who has a Falcon almost as good as Fatality's. But yeah, here's a few things I struggle with:

-Baiting airdodges after DThrow. This is due to their Uair juggle, but they'll use the airdodge to Fair you or even Dair you off stage.
-Punish dashgrabs on everything we do
-Off-stage game is insane. Purposely pursues you with Up B to get a stage spike kill.
-Very hard to punish due to his auto-cancels
-FSmash can't be punished by a turn-around Bair.

 

[Arrei]

When you know they can kill you after DThrow, you have to start being patient and watch their movements. DI away and observe how he pursues, don't airdodge until you're sure what he's going to do, consider jumping away instead as well.

 

[jamlosingthegame]

... wat?

It was a joke we had back in the days of Brawl when coming up with MU charts.

 

[Routa]

Yeah Faptain beats us off stage (don't recover low) and we get juggled into oblivion, but... Get him above yourself on stage and he is doomed. Also Ike vs Faptain is one of the few MUs where Ike can approach easily. But most of the time you want to play adapting/defensive (Disjoint is love. Disjoint is life). Faptain has hard time approaching us. He just can't dash grab us like most of the cast. This forces him to approach with RAR Bair (which is kinda meh as a approach option).

It was a joke we had back in the days of Brawl when coming up with MU charts.

Oh I see.

 

[PyroTakun]

After what happened at CEO with Rango and Ryo, I'd like to bring our attention back to the Rosalina MU. She's far too light and punishable on recovery for this MU to be THAT bad, but it still feels like a real struggle.

 

[DavemanCozy]

We've started preliminary discussion on the Radiant Hero in the Fox boards.
vs

Please join us for discussion here.

 

[Arrei]

Main things I've found to give difficulty in the Rosa matchup are her walling ability with Nair, since it has that frustrating front hitbox at the end of the move, and her ability to gimp us when recovering with her massive lingering aerials. I'm not sure what the proper way to get in on a defensive Rosalina is.

 

[Routa]

My MU knowledge in Ike vs Rosa&Luma is very very limited. But I think CC is great way to get "in". It "ignores" Rosa's shield and deals nice damage to Luma. It is kinda meh tactic but it works (Rosa isn't really good at punishing CC). Other than that.. Erm... Dunno really.

 

[I4mNoHero]

Mario's cape is the bane of our existence.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Back from CEO, I found a chink in Rosalina's armor. Using jabs is the best way to get rid of the Luma. Stay on the ground more so you can shield punish. If she can't grab you, that's half the battle right there. Use your defense to get in close and jabs to knock her off-stage and take out the Luma reliably - more reliably and faster than Ftilt and safer than Bair. Also, don't go to Smashville with her. Battlefield and Dream Land will give her the juggles, but Smashville will save the Luma on the platform. Final Destination. Maybe Town and City, but I don't know yet for certain.

Anyway, here's what I need to work on:

-Olimar (Myran)
-Rosalina (Xaltis)
-Little Mac (Sol)
-Diddy (ZeRo)
-Sheik (Mr. R)

I played all of them in sets and friendlies, but I lost to Xaltis and Sol in the pools. I have played *very* few good players using these characters, and generally not for an extended period of time. I don't know tricks to their matchup or much of their weaknesses. Myran got me with charged Purple Pikmin USmash, pivot grab, and using Side B as a knockback mixup using the Purple Pikmin. ZeRo's Diddy had insane combos on Battlefield that I've never seen. Mr. R is really good at using Sheik to bait airdodge into Bouncing Fish, but like Rosailna, is highly susceptible to jab on block. Sol was awesome to play, but I'm still missing things with Little Mac and had a hard time keeping him or even getting him off-stage. Xaltis was just great at keeping distance with Rosalina.

Neos beat Ryo in pools, also a Rosalina user. This was before I told him jab is more effective at taking out the Luma and dishing out safe damage on her, as well as before I realized it. But I'm definitely working on these matchups most of all so I can perform better at the next tournament. Watch out for these characters in the meantime.

I need to find the right players to go online with before I go to Smash Con or TFC.

 

[san.]

More on Rosalina:

At high rage, almost all of Ike's attacks knock luma into tumble at 0%, even aether's spinning sword. That means that when we're at relatively high percents and offstage, we can aether towards luma and likely end him there.

 

[Mario766]

I actually have seen Luma just eat 3 jabs randomly and take zero knockback.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

I actually have seen Luma just eat 3 jabs randomly and take zero knockback.

That's odd. Anyway, I'm going to update my Rosalina matchup tips. I find she's important to learn since she's one of the most popular characters in the game with more than several noteworthy players.

Here's some tips against Rosalina. I played my fourth set against Neos at CEO and here's what I learned:

-Stay away from Smashville. You risk the Luma surviving on the platform when it should be gone.
-Do not airdodge if you get hit with Uair. They WILL read you and punish you hard
-AETHER. Get to the edge as soon as possible and snap the ledge. Using Aether will do three things
--Send you down as quickly as possible
--Activate armor
--Possibly punish Rosalina since the blade starts below Ike, damaging her greatly
-Remember not to abuse Aether as she will instead just position herself directly below you to setup another juggle. Use sparingly.
-Jabs are her biggest enemy. It's a very reliable way to get rid of the Luma safely.
-Dash attack also does the job nicely on an idle Luma, as long as you're far enough away from Rosalina.
-Using jabs is also preferred to hitting her with aerials. She will beat you in the air. On the ground, she's pretty much limited to jabs (only effective with Luma), dashgrab, and dash attack (the dolphin-hump that hits twice). Jab is a great tool for getting her offstage and punishing.

Rosalina loses momentum the moment she is offstage. While recovering, she is limited to:
--Jumping up for a Fair. It has a disjoint and she'll use this at the edge while trying to jump back onstage, usually from below you
--Uair below the stage to "shark" you. This is also to disrupt your Eruption
--Recover early. Up B either onto a platform or behind you to throw off Eruption.
-Getting on the ledge, not to ledge snap, will throw her off completely. Given her large hitbox and floatiness, they may retreat or save their jump. Either way, you can plan an attack from there.

If you're off stage while trying to recover...

-She will use Side B to spam Star Bits. Just hang in there and take the damage. Remember, you die much later than she does, so tough it out and screw the timing up to throw her off.
-Don't be predictable with your Side B or Aether, and don't sink too low. You don't want to get hit with a Dair spike and die early.

Most effective ways to kill Rosalina...

-UTilt. I cannot stress this enough. Rosalinas are culprits for being the most abusing dash-grabbers next to Captain Falcon, Sonic, and Olimar players. If she attempts this and you spot-dodge in time, Utilt will take her out around 80%. The best time to use this is when recovering from the ledge (since if you get up neutral, you're still susceptible to grab). You can also do this while cornering her. She may use dash-grab as a mixup if she has no Luma.
-Dair spike. Given her recovery style and floatiness, if she goes low, Dair is effective. I used it to finish Neos at 40% while I was at 150% or so.
-Attrition. Keep whaling on her till 130% or so and playing safe with jabs and whatnot. Corner jab combo or DThrow.

Remember, Rosalina LOVES to abuse dash grab and dash attack mixups. Their aerials have huge hitboxes and they want you in the air to juggle you with Uair. Stay on the ground as much as you can, grab and don't pummel if a Luma is present. Rosalina is one of those exception characters that you're better off not trying to Fair/Bair to kill as much. She's a special case where you have to change it up since her aerials are effective enough to be ours out. Grounded defense is emphasized.

Edit: Forgot to mention one more VERY important thing.

When you're in the corner, Rosalina LOVES to stalk you with oddly timed jabs. This is to "jab-walk" the Luma close to you before holding A for an infinite spin. This is not only extremely difficult, if not impossible to avoid if you're already on the corner (as in, you can't roll out of it), but at high damage, the last jab hit can kill. She can also pincer combo you if you happen to roll towards her and away from the Luma, where you'll get hit by her wand jab instead.

 

[san.]

I actually have seen Luma just eat 3 jabs randomly and take zero knockback.

Luma can clank with stuff if it's throwing out an attack. Staling may also have had an effect if possible.

 

[Mario766]

It shouldn't be able to clank with jab 1-2-3 though. Stalling might be the problem.

 

[WorstGanonWorld]

-Stay away from Smashville. You risk the Luma surviving on the platform when it should be gone.

Most effective ways to kill Rosalina...

-UTilt. I cannot stress this enough. Rosalinas are culprits for being the most abusing dash-grabbers next to Captain Falcon, Sonic, and Olimar players. If she attempts this and you spot-dodge in time, Utilt will take her out around 80%. The best time to use this is when recovering from the ledge (since if you get up neutral, you're still susceptible to grab). You can also do this while cornering her. She may use dash-grab as a mixup if she has no Luma.
-Dair spike. Given her recovery style and floatiness, if she goes low, Dair is effective. I used it to finish Neos at 40% while I was at 150% or so.
-Attrition. Keep whaling on her till 130% or so and playing safe with jabs and whatnot. Corner jab combo or DThrow.

What stage would you pick against Rosalina? Halberd is out because of Rosa´s U-air, Smashville, as you mentioned, might save Luma from time to time which sucks, FD isn´t the best either (If it´s Rosa with her custom side b). Is it Battlefield then? Or Lylat?

And I´d say going for a Eruption is better (and much safer) than going for a Dair spike, especially when she´s not close enough to the ledge to shark you. And she is Eruption bait most of the time and can die easily at 70 ish % with some rage from a somewhat charged Eruption. Maybe I´m just putting too much faith in Ike´s B.

And thank God for her size, SH Bair is quite useful, too.

 

[Mario766]

I don't like Lylat because she's too good at covering the platforms.

 

[TriTails]

... wat?

I think Ike's top 3 worst MUs are: Sheik, Mario and Luigi.

Uhm.... Explain?

 

[I4mNoHero]

Uhm.... Explain?

I think Mario because of cape, Luigi because of his safe guaranteed powerful followups on heavy weights such as Ike. Also both of the plumber's combo game are insane.

 

[Sol0ke]

Luigi gives Ike hell, because he gets so much off down throw.
I still think it's easier than Sheik though.