Data Prepare Yourself (Ike Match-up thread)

[Rango the Mercenary]

What stage would you pick against Rosalina? Halberd is out because of Rosa´s U-air, Smashville, as you mentioned, might save Luma from time to time which sucks, FD isn´t the best either (If it´s Rosa with her custom side b). Is it Battlefield then? Or Lylat?

And I´d say going for a Eruption is better (and much safer) than going for a Dair spike, especially when she´s not close enough to the ledge to shark you. And she is Eruption bait most of the time and can die easily at 70 ish % with some rage from a somewhat charged Eruption. Maybe I´m just putting too much faith in Ike´s B.

And thank God for her size, SH Bair is quite useful, too.

Final Destination is the least of the evils. Like Town and City, Battlefield is Juggle City for you if she gets you with a Uair. Battlefield is literally your next best bet, though. Duck Hunt will also be viable and decent if you have to choose it. There aren't enough platforms for her to lock you in a Uair juggle.

Eruption is good, but you can only time it so well before she fakes you out.

I think Mario because of cape, Luigi because of his safe guaranteed powerful followups on heavy weights such as Ike. Also both of the plumber's combo game are insane.

Almost no Mario ever hits me with Cape. FLUDD is the danger here, but just as he mixes up edge-guarding and gimping, you mixup recovery. When they FLUDD, you can Side B to ride the waves. Luigi has you in the neutral, but the matchup shifts into your favor when you knock him off-stage and Counter his recovery.

 

[TriTails]

Luigi has you in the neutral, but the matchup shifts into your favor when you knock him off-stage and Counter his recovery.

And then he decided to short charge his missile, and Cyclone up high.

If there's anything worth mentioning about Ike gimping Luigi, it's Eruption.

 

[Arrei]

Eruption has no gimping capability, landing that thing means blasting Luigi out of the park or straight up for simple recovery, barring followup attempts. And Ike can't get too complacent with that one, either, Luigi can pull out an Uair or Cyclone for mixups as long as he still has his double jump.

I've been finding that Fair's just lovely for edgeguarding with its bigger hitbox, though. Ike can probably have pretty good success swinging at Luigi during Missile's endlag and staying out of danger, though there's always that pesky misfire chance waiting to screw up the perfect edgeguard. I still think Counter's only really that useful as an edgeguard if you can read when he's going to pull out that Cyclone and swat him into the dead zone.

 

[Silver Forte]

Any good tips in general against yoshi? The main problem I have is that he pretty much punishes everything Ike does on the ground on shield, and his jab outranges ikes. He also seems to have virtually no lag on his aerials and his dash attack seems hard to punish, seems like a very defensive matchup.

 

[I4mNoHero]

Ok, hopped on FG yesterday becuase all my friends were offline. I was then beat badly 6 times in a row by a Sonic. Some of the games were not even close. Granted that player was better then me, but I only managed to finally take a match after he SDed.
Can someone enlighten me on a way to counter Sonic? I had no approach option as my Fair and Nair were shield grabbed. Jab also clanks with spin dash, and then their jab comes out way faster right after. And the friggin spring man. Probally one of the best edge guarding tools against Ike.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Don't play online

Seriously. Sonic online and offline are two completely different things.

 

[Mario766]

Seriously. Facing Sonic is a display of reflexes and timing. You don't showcase EITHER online.

 

[I4mNoHero]

Well that makes sense. Now that I think about it, I felt like I had some input lag yesterday.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

Unless you have no lag of course. I can consistently play without being harassed by lag most of the time.

Speaking of Sonic, I feel that Quick Draw is a nice tool to challenge his Spin Dash. However, if customs were on, would you guys feel that Close Combat would be a better choice?
I think that in the Sonic matchup you always have to find a way contest Speed vs Speed.

 

[Arrei]

There's always some minute amount of lag, it's just usually not as bothersome or less noticeable. Most of the time if I find a match where there's detectable input lag, I throw in the towel right there. It's just not worth the aggravation, unless it's just one random fight in an otherwise fine string of bouts with a fun opponent.

 

[TriTails]

Input lag exist in every match OF FG if I recall correctly. It's about 3-4 minimum.

Then again. Offline experience =/= Online experience. It's always different.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

If your connection and that of your opponent is smooth, it is possible to have no lag whatsoever.

 

[Mario766]

It's impossible to have zero lag online

 

[I4mNoHero]

It's impossible to have zero lag online

Not if both of the particapants are wired and have decent routers I think.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

Ok, cool.

Now, what about that Sonic matchup?

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Ok, cool.

Now, what about that Sonic matchup?

-Always let him come to you. Sonic wants you to approach.
-Punish his spindash on shield with Nair or Bair.
-Watch out as his spin dash may jump into Spring, Nair, or Homing Attack
-They LOVE to grab. They abuse it.
-Primary dash mixup consists of dash attack, dash grab, Fair, and at high percents, USmash
-Fair is not punishable on shield

Stages to avoid:

-Halberd
-Town and City
-Final Destination

Best methods to kill:

-UTilt. Sonic is one of the few characters you WANT to spot-dodge as he will go in for a dash-grab, especially when you come up from the ledge. UTilt will punish him.
-Eruption. Not only for Up B, but when they try to mixup and do a high recovery with Homing Attack. Burn them.
-Uair. Since they love staying above you most of the time.
-Punish Dair cancel. They'll avoid the endlag if they use Dair high enough from a spring. Grab them or UTilt.
-Attrition. If your Bairs and Fairs are missing, just rack them up to 160% and finish them with a DThrow.

 

[Mario766]

Battlefield and Dreamland 64 are our best stages for the match-up. Duck Hunt is one of Sonic's best stages, don't let them have it. I'd ban FD and Duck Hunt personally.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

That would explain why Aurora counterpicked it on me at MomoCon and why he almost beat me. I managed to hit the ducks so the dog would screw him over, and it did. The dog appeared while he grabbed me and it broke the grab and gave me a free hit.

 

[TriTails]

-UTilt. Sonic is one of the few characters you WANT to spot-dodge as he will go in for a dash-grab

Sonic's dash attack beats spotdodges.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Sonic's dash attack beats spotdodges.

You gotta use it if they're abusing dash-grab, though. They're going to mixup on approach.

 

[Mario766]

Not if both of the particapants are wired and have decent routers I think.

If a game is not played on LAN there is lag, no matter how close the game is. You still have what is called ping, which is the Milliseconds required for your packet of data to be sent to a server, on in this case the other player because Smash Bros is played P2P without a server taking care of the game data. This means that data is sent to and for the players over and over again. Even if you're playing with someone in your same city you still have anywhere from 20 to 40 MS of ping. This is outstanding for online and plays almost like offline. ALMOST. As ping gets higher the game gets more and more laggy. It's IMPOSSIBLE, I don't care what set-up you have, to have zero lag online. Internet speeds are not as fast as what a console can do when it is offline. They never will be.

For the Sonic match-up, even this little bit of lag makes the match-up much much better for Sonic as we're required to play a spacing game that is very timing dependent. If the timing is thrown off even slightly you miss punishes and get hit by more and more combos from spin dash. Offline, the match-up gets much better for Ike as he has the timing to hit Spindash and Homing Attack using Ragnell's disjoint, which is Sonic's main weakness, disjoints and having little priority.

Sonic doesn't get much reward off dash attack, i'd rather take a dash attack than get grabbed into a combo honestly. Just be careful that he doesn't bait out the spot dodge and go for a pivot grab or something else. It's a mix-up game in Sonic's favor honestly.

 

[TriTails]

Sonic doesn't get much reward off dash attack, i'd rather take a dash attack than get grabbed into a combo honestly. Just be careful that he doesn't bait out the spot dodge and go for a pivot grab or something else. It's a mix-up game in Sonic's favor honestly.

It sends you to the air, which generally means disadvantage.

He can also run past you, spin dash for even more combos. I don't think spot-dodging is such a good option against Sonic. I think jumping is better but IDK much.

 

[Ryuki of Spiral Rhapsody]

Hey all, I apologize for being lazy and not looking through the thread for information I'm seeking; does anyone know how Ike would fare against Little Mac? I got slaughtered by a pretty good (and disrespectful but that's a whole other topic) Little Mac and I'd like to prevent that trip to the salt mines from ever happening again, if possible.

 

[Arrei]

Mac obviously holds the advantage in neutral as he so often does but Ike is pretty capable of ending Mac early. Once you get Mac to around 40% or more, Ike's top priority is leading Mac close to the edges in order to chuck him off with a Bthrow and set up an edgeguard situation - from there it's up to skills in either positioning yourself to FSmash him when he tries to recover or chasing him offstage with Fair's gargantuan hitbox. Just be wary of Slip Counter or getting sharked by Rising Uppercut while you do so.

As of the patch Ike has an easier time punishing Mac's Ftilt on block with his own Ftilt. You'll want to make the most of Ragnell's reach here, because Mac can easily power through your attacks with an FSmash if you stand too close. Mac's Dtilt and frame 1 jab are also dangerous, because the former is a big setup for his combos and the latter beats out our own jab which we rely so much on, so make sure you space your aerial approaches well so that you land outside of his jab range if you get blocked.

 

[Alondite_]

I've actually been having a really rough time with the mario matchup recently. It seems like he can get so much on ike of a grab and gimp him easily with cape and flood. Any tips?

 

[Mario766]

Ike can jump out of early percent down throw up tilt combos, you just have to DI up and away and jump properly.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Ike can jump out of early percent down throw up tilt combos, you just have to DI up and away and jump properly.

I've never DI'd up before. Always away or down.

 

[Arrei]

SDIing up's the only way to get out of those Utilt juggles, and a good way to get out of PK Fire before Ness grabs you if you're far enough, though a good Ness may try to chase you with an aerial.

Utilts with high reach can still be problematic though.

 

[Mario766]

SDing up throws you further and further away, ending the combo early, then you get to jump out because Mario's up tilts aren't true combos.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

SDIing up's the only way to get out of those Utilt juggles, and a good way to get out of PK Fire before Ness grabs you if you're far enough, though a good Ness may try to chase you with an aerial.

Utilts with high reach can still be problematic though.

SDing up throws you further and further away, ending the combo early, then you get to jump out because Mario's up tilts aren't true combos.

Ness PK Fire and Mario's UTilts. What else?

 

[Arrei]

Any other spammable Utilt is the same way, like Kirby, Sheik, and Fox's. It's also decent at getting out of some rapid jabs. Dedede's jab is probably prone to being foiled by upwards SDI the most, since it has a somewhat small vertical hitbox. I also feel like up is a better direction for escaping Robin's Elwind jab than backward, despite that larger ending gust.

I actually had quite a bit of difficulty dealing with Link's Utilt in this way, because I've never bothered to turn Tap Jump off despite it being a bad idea with Ike. (It's gotten me gimped a few times when I really shouldn't have but I have no competitive aspirations anyway) Trying to SDI up out of his Utilt with Tap Jump on seems to make you waste your air jump because you'll burn it before you're high enough to evade the next Utilt.

 

[Linkmario00]

Sheik Uptilt spammable? I imagine you meant Shulk or something else because I pretty much can't see how that's spammable. Or maybe you meant her Ftilt

 

[GhostUrsa]

Would DIing away from aerial juggles work as well? One of my personal issues has always been against rush down grapplers. Falcon still gives me trouble with his throw to aerial combos and unfortunately I still can't figure out how to escape them. Saving my second jump and trying to cancel out with Aether doesn't help me it seems (I was recommended it as a last ditch move to see if the super armor might throw off his groove). I know at like Luigi you are supposed to just stay out of grabs, but I still lack the read skills to stay out of range permanently. (Found out the hard way that retreating fairs don't always work since he can grab you out of it due to how slow Fair's animation is.)

 

[Arrei]

Sheik Uptilt spammable? I imagine you meant Shulk or something else because I pretty much can't see how that's spammable. Or maybe you meant her Ftilt

Yeah, that's what I meant.

SDI is usually for getting out of multi-hit attacks like rapid jabs or Aether's spin, regular DI is all you can really do against being juggled, I think? At low percent you can't avoid at least one of the Uairs and all you can really do after that is try to jump or airdodge, both of which can be chased after. Once you start getting into mid percent you can DI away after Dthrow to try and give yourself a little more room to think, but you'll have to decide whether Falcon's going to chase you with more Uairs or go for the knee.

 

[Banjobeast158]

Just a bit of advice. I went against the best Olimar/Alph I have fought and eruption is the best way to KO him. Both times i Ko'd him were with a charged b. I do not know if he was recovering badly or what but it was quite helpful. It netted me the win though.

 

[Arrei]

Olimar's Pikmin will trigger Counter while they're headbutting us. Think that gives us any additional options? In effect, we'd take a hit or two to throw out a 10% hit with i-frames that should also clear the Pikmin off of us.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Just a bit of advice. I went against the best Olimar/Alph I have fought and eruption is the best way to KO him. Both times i Ko'd him were with a charged b. I do not know if he was recovering badly or what but it was quite helpful. It netted me the win though.

Olimar can slow his recovery speed. Gotta watch that and mixup to walk-off Bair.

Olimar's Pikmin will trigger Counter while they're headbutting us. Think that gives us any additional options? In effect, we'd take a hit or two to throw out a 10% hit with i-frames that should also clear the Pikmin off of us.

I have had a Pikmin on me, then got close to an Olimar, hit Counter, and he took the damage, yes.

 

[Arrei]

Yeah, I know it'll trigger it, I'm just wondering if it's worth trying to use in a match. Counter has invincibility frames when triggered, but I'm not sure how reliable they are. I've been killed by the second hit of Shulk's Usmash after countering the first hit. Can Ike's counter be blocked?

 

[GhostUrsa]

Technically, yes. (Counter isn't an unblockable move) In reality, I'm not sure anyone has the speed to pull that off. (Human dexterity and frame wise) It is possible to hit Ike before he can complete his attack animation though (The invulnerability frames are immediately after the first hit connects, once the swing starts it ends.) It is why using Counter against multi-hit moves can be a gamble, as you'll have to know (instinctual or deductively) when the second hit will be compared to Ike's counter speed.

 

[Mario766]

Anyone got any XP in the Yoshi MU? I'm confused and irritated at how the MU plays.