Data Prepare Yourself (Ike Match-up thread)

[GhostUrsa]

I have a little. It isn't much, but I'll share what I know. His attacks have a lot more range and speed than you think, so make sure to use most of your attacks from as far of range as possible. Approaching from the air can be difficult due to his eggs, so unpredictability is key to maintaining any pressure when you need to be offensive. Yoshi's eggs have enough oomph to them to for neutral, but require commitment for their arc (He can't rapid fire the things, luckily).

If you are under him, be prepared for his D-air as it has great range and can shut down almost any anti-air move during it's animation. I prefer to wait out the attack via shield and then grab. If you are below and behind him, his tail slap b-air isn't quite the shutdown but benefits from a similar counter tactic.

To make a Yoshi player sweat, you need to get them off-stage. Yoshi's recovery is terrible in the low and deep angles, which makes him prime Eruption fodder. If you have an Egg happy Yoshi that knows how to angle them under pressure while low, walk off f-air and b-air are your friend (he has no extra recovery options once his second jump is used up, so it's an easy gimp as long as you have good aim.) From level or high recoveries it is very difficult to go for the kill as he'll be spamming eggs to slow his descent, walling you out while waiting for an opening to use his second jump. You want to scare him into a low or deep recovery ideally, so F-air or Air dodging is a good way to avoid the eggs while staying near the ledge.

If we are off-stage, we have to worry about getting gimped by eggs and his f-air (that spike!). Save that double jump, as it is your best defense against being gimped via eggs. Rising f-airs and rising Air-dodges into Aether can help you avoid being slam dunked as long as you get the timing right.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Anyone got any XP in the Yoshi MU? I'm confused and irritated at how the MU plays.

Yoshi hates the fact we have huge Fair/Nair range so they have problems recovering high over us. Dash attack punishes whiffed eggs, and the only ways their range beats ours is if they do FSmash when we attempt DTilt. It's better to just take the grab than jump or forget to shield and get hit by a mixup USmash, which is punishable on shield.

Best opportunities to kill Yoshi:

-Uair if they go for Yoshi Bomb
-Dash attack if Egg Bomb goes over your head
-Bait airdodge into Nair. Keep in miind how good Yoshi's aerial movement is and retreat if he's coming back on stage
-USmash if he tries to cross you up or goes for Dair
-Punish whiffed FSmash/USmash with Bair
-Eruption. Jump first and if he fails an Egg Bomb, you got him.

Yoshi is one of the heavier characters in the game (104, compared to Ike's 107). Don't think you can kill him at 100% just because he looks like a midweight. Trying to attrition him isn't a smart move since he can survive past 160% if you DThrow him. He's as heavy as Captain Falcon, he can setup a Fair spike on you, and kill you with USmash, FSmash, and Yoshi Bomb. His dash attack is the fastest and most overall-ranged in the game, and he is very, very hard to punish. However, he lacks your killing power, and his gimmick of FSmash's reach is pretty much gone in this matchup.

Yoshi is also one of the few characters where the matchup won't drop if he's off-stage. Yoshi favors off-stage since he can camp with Egg Bomb and use his second jump for armor. His aerial movement makes him hard to hit, and Egg Bomb will keep you from gimping him effectively if you manage to nail a hit after his air-hop. Focus on the ground game since his aerial game involves Fairs, Nairs, Bairs, and Dairs which are very hard to punish. Jabbing is your friend here, especially since they love dash-grab mixups and you'll break that easily with a jab.

I should also address that, as always, grabs will always deliver the most damage you can give to an opponent, and Yoshi is no exception. However, keep in mind two things:

1) Once again, Yoshi has very little endlag on most of his attacks. His Yoshi Bomb creates shockwaves, making getting in also a pain. Attempting dash grabs runs the risk of getting punished by USmash.
2) Yoshi's FSmash shifts his hitbox backwards, similar to Captain Falcon's. It out-ranges your Dtilt and will perfectly punish any dash-in attempt you throw at him.

Shorthop and fastfall into grabs instead. Jump high if you must to avoid FSmash's huge hitbox.

Final note: Yoshi's roll is slow. As you may know, most players will try and get your back as much as they possibly can since Ike has one of the worst DSmashes in the game. Nothing will help you more than shorthop retreating Nairs since the tail end of the attack will hit your opponent if they try and roll behind you. If this happens, follow up with Bair. You're more likely to hit Yoshi since he has a medium-sized hitbox.

I find Yoshi to be 45-55 in our favor.

 

[Arrei]

The only thing I have to add to the matchup is to be wary of doing full hops when approaching. Mixups are fine, but if he starts anticipating them, Ike's at the perfect spot to get killed by a Yoshi Bomb. I've been killed by that a few times and felt like an idiot every time.

 

[GhostUrsa]

@ Rango the Mercenary I've never had an issue with Yoshi's Super Armor when second jumping for a level or high recovery since our F-air can beat it out (Yoshi's Super Armor during the jump can be overpowered with any attack that has high knockback, which depending on a combination of their % and/or Ike's Rage is consistently doable for Ike). I'll have issues with him moving faster than my attack animation, but not the actual armor. I could see N-air not having enough oomph to gimp it, but I prefer not to use n-air when edge guarding level or high recoveries since most of the time it knocks them high again instead of low (Where as you mentioned, Yoshi's eggs and other options give him an advantage). I can also see this not working if Yoshi is off-stage with low % while Ike is at low %, though I haven't seen this happen much due to most combatants I've watched not going for a deep off-stage fight at that early of %.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

http://smashboards.com/threads/charizard-matchup-discussion-ike.411648/

Hey guys, the Charizard boards are discussing the Ike vs Charizard matchup.

Come on over and tell us what you think!

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

To all Ikes out there, the Rosalina sub-forum has a match-up discussion thread all set up to analyze Rosalina's match-up against Ike. Got anything to share for the Rosalina vs. Ike match-up? Then head to the following thread link...

http://smashboards.com/threads/411701/

In terms of the rules, be sure to go to the directory thread.

http://smashboards.com/threads/404194/

 

[Nidtendofreak]

To all Ikes out there, the Rosalina sub-forum has a match-up discussion thread all set up to analyze Rosalina's match-up against Ike. Got anything to share for the Rosalina vs. Ike match-up? Then head to the following thread link...

http://smashboards.com/threads/411701/

In terms of the rules, be sure to go to the directory thread.

http://smashboards.com/threads/404194/

@ Mario & Sonic Guy has your board smartened up a bit since the last time you guys asked us for MU stuff? If they haven't, I sure ain't bothering to go over that's for sure.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

@ Mario & Sonic Guy has your board smartened up a bit since the last time you guys asked us for MU stuff? If they haven't, I sure ain't bothering to go over that's for sure.

Last time, you only had 3 days to discuss the match-up. There's no time limit for round 2, so don't feel like you're under any pressure.

Anyway, I did have to do some rule changes, and so far, things have improved ever since. But only you can decide if you want to get involved or not. Just be aware that round 2 uses a new scoring system; all the rules are in the directory thread.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

To all Ikes out there, the Rosalina sub-forum has a match-up discussion thread all set up to analyze Rosalina's match-up against Ike. Got anything to share for the Rosalina vs. Ike match-up? Then head to the following thread link...

http://smashboards.com/threads/411701/

In terms of the rules, be sure to go to the directory thread.

http://smashboards.com/threads/404194/

Would you be willing to share your expertise? The Ike board would greatly welcome input from the Rosalina board. To put it simply, Ryo lost to Neos at CEO while I lost to Xaltis. Both Ikes against Rosalina, and she is not our favorite matchup.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Would you be willing to share your expertise? The Ike board would greatly welcome input from the Rosalina board. To put it simply, Ryo lost to Neos at CEO while I lost to Xaltis. Both Ikes against Rosalina, and she is not our favorite matchup.

I don't really have much expertise with the Rosalina vs. Ike match-up, so there just isn't much that I can contribute.

 

[PyroTakun]

I'm not familiar enough with Charizard or Rosa to offer any decent input to the MUs :/

Hopefully others here on the Ike boards can shed some light

 

[Smog Frog]

how do you guys think you do against ? personally i think you guys beat him but if the boards say they lose then i guess i need your input.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

how do you guys think you do against ? personally i think you guys beat him but if the boards say they lose then i guess i need your input.

In the neutral, Luigi wrecks us. Offstage, Counter is his worst nightmare.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

how do you guys think you do against ? personally i think you guys beat him but if the boards say they lose then i guess i need your input.

Some of us think we beat Luigi, others think he may be a losing MU.

I think it depends heavily on the Ike's style of play. You have to play the Luigi MU completely differently, that's for sure.

 

[Arrei]

We do okay against Luigi with good shield use, and as long as we don't get grabbed. That's obviously easier said than done, but the reach on Ike's jab allows him to stop any attempts at fireball -> dash grab by punching or kicking Luigi square in the nose, and Luigi's shield traction and low reach makes it easier to maintain our space on the ground. His fireball also received 3 more frames of endlag in the patch, so that weakens his keepaway game a bit.

In my opinion, Luigi's just too good to call it even, but it's not a big disadvantage.

 

[Mario766]

I need some zss knowledge. Anyone got any?

 

[Arrei]

Don't have much on the finer details, so I'll just put what I know. Never roll away from her, because her grab is stupid. She has a frame 1 jab, if I recall, so ideally you'll want to stick close enough to discourage her from dash grabbing but not so close that she can punch you. We can punish Paralyzer from mid range with Fair, but limit your use of full hops otherwise since she has a lot more options from under you than from above. Her Dair is virtually identical to Sheik and Sonic's, but has much less landing lag so don't chance using a slower move to punish it. Be ready to DI or airdodge a Flip Kick if she gets a grab or Dsmash near a ledge as she can set up a spike. Not certain if you can actually airdodge in time against a Dsmash -> Kick or if it's a true combo.

 

[Xelion]

Don't have much on the finer details, so I'll just put what I know. Never roll away from her, because her grab is stupid. She has a frame 1 jab, if I recall, so ideally you'll want to stick close enough to discourage her from dash grabbing but not so close that she can punch you. We can punish Paralyzer from mid range with Fair, but limit your use of full hops otherwise since she has a lot more options from under you than from above. Her Dair is virtually identical to Sheik and Sonic's, but has much less landing lag so don't chance using a slower move to punish it. Be ready to DI or airdodge a Flip Kick if she gets a grab or Dsmash near a ledge as she can set up a spike. Not certain if you can actually airdodge in time against a Dsmash -> Kick or if it's a true combo.

I use ZSS as a secondary and I'm fairly sure that D-Smash to Flip Kick is true if they know the timing, so if you are playing a good ZSS, then you are probably going to get hit.

 

[PyroTakun]

I actually think Luigi is a good MU for Ike, as long as you don't get grabbed. Ike's Dash Attack buff is a godsend since you can now use it to plow through projectiles and hit the opponent, but honestly the best response to fireball is to get into a close-ish range and... take the hit.

The stun on fireball is practically non-existent, and you can jab/ grab Luigi before he's able to dash in and get his grab. Other than that spacing is important and don't be afraid to go offstage against Luigi; walk-off F-Airs absolutely destroys him.

On the flip side a good Luigi can wreck you off-stage too, so mix up the recoveries and try not to get caught off-stage.



As for ZSS, I'm still learning that MU; Bengal absolutely wrecked me when I played him last week. I'll see if I can get friendlies in next time I see him.

 

[Mario766]

I played Bengalz on Anther's, our matches weren't bad but I'm very inexperienced in the ZSS Mu, I'll get more of it when I play more MI tournaments because there's several ZSS mains here.

 

[PyroTakun]

I played Bengalz on Anther's, our matches weren't bad but I'm very inexperienced in the ZSS Mu, I'll get more of it when I play more MI tournaments because there's several ZSS mains here.

I think I was in the stream when that was going on. ZSS might be one of our more painful MUs.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Also to note that Luigi has more endlag on his fireballs now. He can't just followup for free the moment he shoots you.

 

[Mario766]

He's still pretty safe on-shield, but he's even less safe on hit now.

 

[PyroTakun]

So who here has experience with the Meta Knight MU? He's really picking up in popularity, and his U-Airs and Up B seem so free for him to pull off against Ike and the fact he can get them off from a D-Throw or Dash Attack makes this feel pretty one-sided.

Any help would be appreciated.

 

[Mario766]

Mario keeps being annoying. Any good ways around fludd and cape?

 

[WorstGanonWorld]

Mario keeps being annoying. Any good ways around fludd and cape?

Go as low as you can when recovering, Mario can´t FLUDD you if you´re just barely beneath the ledge. Just practice using Aether from as low as possible (When Ike throws Ragnell, it needs to be just below the ledge, if it´s above the ledge it´s a free Cape/FLUDD for Mario.)

Atleast that´s what works for me!

 

[GhostUrsa]

Mario keeps being annoying. Any good ways around fludd and cape?

When it comes to Fludd, your approach will change depending on what move you are doing. @ WorstGanonWorld 's advice on Aether is pretty solid with Aether, practice using it at max range to prevent popping up. For QD, you'll actually want to try to aim slightly above Mario. I've been seeing a lot of high level play with Ike against Mario where they literally look like Ike's surfing across Fludd's spray and landing behind Mario as he's in ending lag. Unless you are already close enough to the ledge to snap without it, there is a good chance that the max range of Fludd's spray can push you too far down for QD to connect for the snap (it arcs downwards).

Cape's only counter option for Ike is to mix up where you'll be using your recoveries (Don't get hit!). Ike has the same problems with the Cape he does with Counter moves, where our only defense is to not get in the hitbox in the first place. Stay unpredictable with your recoveries (if using QD spice up when you are releasing to mix up where you'll land/snap, or make him think you'll recover mid and then go deep with Aether at max range!) is the best defense.

 

[Arrei]

Marios rarely seem prepared to deal with high recoveries with QD, if you get the opportunity. Sailing right over Mario's head will prevent either move from pulling shenanigans with you, and since you're still so high up you have plenty of time to see if Mario's gotten wise to your antics and is trying to intercept you with a double jump.

 

[Xelion]

you have plenty of time to see if Mario's gotten wise to your antics and is trying to intercept you with a double jump.

At that point I would just hold QD and make him predict where I am going, I may go to ledge, try and hit him, or go over him, but he never knows. Mix it up make him guess so you can get back easy. I'll test with a friend and see which option is the safest.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

So who here has experience with the Meta Knight MU? He's really picking up in popularity, and his U-Airs and Up B seem so free for him to pull off against Ike and the fact he can get them off from a D-Throw or Dash Attack makes this feel pretty one-sided.

Any help would be appreciated.

1) Stay off Halberd. I learned this from SicX. Ban Halberd immediately.
2) Respect his dash attack. Even though it doesn't respect anything you do. Thanks to the buff, he can't just dash attack you for free if you bait him with Nair.
3) Grabs are your friend. This applies to anyone, but he will try and shield so much of your hits that you're best off starting your offense with surprise dash grabs.
4) Jab is your best defense. Mix with shield so you can punish his dash grab attempts and block his incoming dash attack mixups.
5) DO NOT APPROACH. Much like Sonic, it's all about him goading you to attack so he can punish you for free.
6) Nairs and jabs.
7) Don't bother counterattacking if he's in the air and you're on the ground. He may try Uair into Mach Tornado. I learned that from LordMix.

Mario keeps being annoying. Any good ways around fludd and cape?

1) Side B your recovery. Don't do this every time. But when he's aiming to gimp you, he'll usually go with FLUDD first. Ride the waves, then at the last second, SWITCH YOUR DIRECTION. He will try to Cape you after FLUDD to entirely screw your recovery over. The reason I recommend Side B is because, even at the lowest possible point, I have been screwed over by FLUDD while trying to recover with Aether. Naturally, you're going to have to change it up or recover high.
2) Your Fair beats his Bair. Your Bair doesn't. Your Bair max-ranges him with the disjoint, but his comes out faster. Don't get into a war with him because it comes out far enough.
3) Don't bother trying to Nair when recovering high. Go for the ledge if he sends you skyward or his USmash invincibility frames will beat out anything you use for your defense.
4) Jabs all day. Mario loves to approach primarily with Bair, Nair, and dash grab. Dash grab is where he gets the most damage out of. Don't let him grab you.
5) Mario's overall safe approach is Dair. It's not the SAFEST thing out there, but he knows it's hard to counter. If you see a Mario Tornado coming, shield and make sure all hits are gone. Turn and jab as necessary or roll out of the way so he can't shield and counter you instead.
6) Play a retreat game with Bair or Nair. Use Bair if he's outside of rolling range, and use Nair if he is. Mario players want your back more than anything. Short hop retreat Nair will punish them for rolling behind you.
7) Mario's weakest point is off-stage. Nothing stresses them out like a well-timed Eruption.

 

[Xuan Wu]

The Roy forum is currently discussing the Ike match-up. Let's do it, everyone! ^-^

http://smashboards.com/threads/set-...ik-7-26-15-8-6-15.406195/page-5#post-19867960

 

[Xelion]

I feel kinda stupid for asking this, but is there any easy way to get out of Mario's d-throw up tilt shenanigans? I tried jumping like usual and it didn't work at all, and counter is too slow. Is there a way to DI out of it or am I screwed in that situation?

EDIT: I also play lighter characters so that's why I thought I could jump out. Either that or the Mario was bad and didn't up-tilt right.

 

[Arrei]

SDI upwards. A few hits are unavoidable but you can get out after two hits or so.

 

[Xelion]

SDI upwards. A few hits are unavoidable but you can get out after two hits or so.

Thank you, that's will help a lot, I just feel like Mario is one of our harder match ups, even if you are good at getting around him beating out recoveries.

 

[Arrei]

Mario's just all-around solid beyond the FLUDD and Cape, with his mobility Ike doesn't have too hard of a time maintaining his space. Unlike Sheik and Luigi, his fireballs aren't as safe as their projectiles, he can't challenge us in the air so easily since his Fair is a spiking tool instead of being quick and his Uair doesn't have such obscene reach like Falcon's.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

I've been going into DThrow right into Up B because so many characters just Nair-counter me the moment I go for UTilt.

 

[Trunks159]

??? Just go into Upthrow > fair. It always works.
Who said that ^?

 

[Mario766]

He means as Mario lol.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

I have many problems with Captain Falcon.

>His jab comes out quickly and beats ours out badly
>His grab beats our shorthop. We try and retreat Bair shorthop, he'll grab us first if he's close enough.
>Uairs all day
>Spike combo. Uses aerials to take us off-stage, and either reads an airdodge, or doesn't, and Dairs for a quick kill\
>Air combos hard to escape
>Disrespects us using jab to keep him away since his dash grab seems to have huge priority.

On the plus side, can UTilt keep him from punishing us efficiently?

 

[WorstGanonWorld]

I have many problems with Captain Falcon.

>His jab comes out quickly and beats ours out badly
>His grab beats our shorthop. We try and retreat Bair shorthop, he'll grab us first if he's close enough.
>Uairs all day
>Spike combo. Uses aerials to take us off-stage, and either reads an airdodge, or doesn't, and Dairs for a quick kill\
>Air combos hard to escape
>Disrespects us using jab to keep him away since his dash grab seems to have huge priority.

On the plus side, can UTilt keep him from punishing us efficiently?

> I think jab should mostly be used to punish dash grabs since it loses to Faclon´s jab (it´s faster than Ike´s jab by one frame I believe). However, we got Dtilt and spaced aerials to keep him out so he won´t have many oppurtunities to jab (just like you did in the video, great use of dtilt there)
> His Uair strings hurt quite a bit, both characters can juggle each other. However, Falcon Uair lost it´s killpower while Ike´s Uair got even stronger this patch. With a reasonable amount of rage, it can kill him fairly early. And Ike is most likely to get a good amount of rage against Falcon. He is pretty strong, but all his kill moves except for Bair (which got nerfed in this patch) require a hard read.
> Eruption + predicting Falcon´s super predictable recovery = Dead Falcon

Not sure about Utilt seeing too much use in this match up. Maybe you can spotdodge a grab and then Utilt but I don´t know if Falcon is in Utilt´s range because he slides so far when he dash grabs.